1. #51
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    No one has brought up the best argument: the recent study showing regular naps reduce the risk of heart disease. I don't have time to look for it right now, but given our problem with cardiac problems I'd say naps should be mandatory!

    Our rules and regs say no one can lay down before 2100 except in cases where the lieutenant gives permission due to illness. No one follows that rule, it was written a long time before we started doing first responder work in the early 90's and just isn't realistic anymore.
    In time

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    When I worked for the City of St Gabriel (La) FD we did 12 hour shifts. Days 0600-1800 hours and nights 1800-0600. Somewhere the Mayor decided that since we only did 12s we shouldn't be sleeping on duty. The day crew guys were expected to come on shift, do truck inspections, equiptment maintaince and the like. Come time for night shift the same was expected. The Mayor had us doing stuff like driving around in the trucks at night inspecting street lights, marking the location of burned out lights on maps and in the morning the street department got a list of the burned out lights to repair.
    Then problems started when we had guys working for us after getting off shifts from other departments. The Chief started making exceptions for these part time FFs. Then exceptions were made for FFs working after getting off work from thier "regular" jobs such as construction or chemical plants.
    So in a short time you had some guys allowed to clock in and then climb in the bed while others, like me, were supposed to stay awake and do the "make work" errands the Mayor and Chief came up with.
    I could either find another "regular" job to do when off from the FD or get some sleep when I got home.
    I chose sleep. I started turning off my pager when I got home so I could get (maybe) 6 hours in bed. The next thing I know I'm hearing complaints from members of the department that I wasn't running volunteer calls in my off time.
    See, the trucks and buildings were owned by the Parish (county) and the VFD operated them. The Paid City FFs were recruted from the volunteer pool or signed up as members of the VFD when hired. So we were a dual paid/vollie FF and if we lived in the district were expected to work our regularly scheduled hours and when off to respond to calls and attend training as a volunteer.
    "Where were you on that wreck we had today?" they'd ask.
    "In bed sleeping since I can't sleep on duty." I'd reply.
    At the meeting for my expulsion from the EIVFD it was brought up that members were unhappy that I was not running volunteer calls anymore. I pointed out that I had in fact run several calls as a vollie in the month before the meeting but this was just part of a larger S**tstorm I'd blown up in my final weeks.
    After my expulsion I had to turn in my gear and couldn't drive any VFD vehicles or respond to any calls. The last week I worked as a City Firefighter were some of the easist hours I've ever worked. I'd show up at the station, clock in, watch TV and drink coffee then clock out 12 hours later. In between I updated my resume' and looked for another job. By the end of the week I had a new job and was at City Hall putting in my paperwork to quit.
    As far as I know they are still working 12 hour shifts at the station. I'm not sure if they can sleep these days or if they still have to stay awake. If they do I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions made.
    Steve
    EMT/Security Officer

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Boo dang hoo. I'll give you a useful direct parallel for my time on active duty, Army. ...................
    I don't quite see the "useful" or "parallel" aspects of this story to the discussion myself. After all, it is the military and they are known for "crazy" stuff like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    If the fire service are performing a critical life safety mission how is it one has time for blissful slumber while ON DUTY? Well, if they are actually engaged in a "critical life safety mission" then they won't have time for sleep while on duty. Fortunately for many of us, we aren't occupied with calls every single minute of the shift. NOTHING productive that needs done? Sometimes YES! Besides, who determines what activities are/aren't "productive"? Predictable ZERO likelyhood of a call in the next 60 seconds? There's always the possibility of a call in the next 60 seconds, then again there's always the possibility of not having a call - depending on where you work . Then why is a career station needed? Well, for one faster response times, which for some calls can make a world of difference. If you're asleep you're voting that you are not an essential service. That's not even close to being true.
    Now part of the problem with this situation is that many attempt to try and make direct comparisons between (in this case) fire service jobs and "real world" jobs when in all reality they aren't comparable in many ways.

    I've had a few "real world" jobs along the way and in my experience, the employees are there specifically because there IS work to be done and they are being paid to DO that work. On the other hand, in many cases, the career firefighter is there not specifically because there IS work to be done, but rather because at some undetermined point in time somebody will need FD services and these employees are being paid to be READY to immediately respond and perform the needed work.

    One more example of how these jobs aren't directly comparable.....for many jobs you generally are given a meal break in which you are not expected (nor potentially obligated) to perform your job tasks. In probably very few instances does the career firefighter actually get a true meal break in which they aren't required to perform their job tasks if a call were to come in.

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    Default Sleeping on duty

    If a man can't work 10 or 14 hours with out going to sleep his mangina must be sore and swollen,and I don't see how this fragile person could fight a tash can fire let alone a house fire.Now 24 hour shifts are a different beast get your sleep when you can because you never know what the night brings.

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    If you have to lay down and sleep on a 10 or 14 hour shift your mangina must be sore and swollen.How can a such a fragile person put out a trash can fire let alone fight a house fire,if they need that much rest?You might want to try flipping burgers for a living if staying awake 10 hours is to much for you.Now a 24 hour shift is a whole different beast you better get some sleep when you can because you never know what the night will bring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GASTOVERAT View Post
    If you have to lay down and sleep on a 10 or 14 hour shift your mangina must be sore and swollen.How can a such a fragile person put out a trash can fire let alone fight a house fire,if they need that much rest?You might want to try flipping burgers for a living if staying awake 10 hours is to much for you.Now a 24 hour shift is a whole different beast you better get some sleep when you can because you never know what the night will bring.
    You are another idiot with no fracking clue.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by GASTOVERAT View Post
    If a man can't work 10 or 14 hours with out going to sleep his mangina must be sore and swollen,and I don't see how this fragile person could fight a tash can fire let alone a house fire.Now 24 hour shifts are a different beast get your sleep when you can because you never know what the night brings.
    Your MANGINA must be to sore to us spellcheck...

    We don't catch to many TASH CAN fires over this way! Hmmm wonder if anyone else has?

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    I think his "mangina" is sore from hauling his "tash can" around the kitchen... his screen name reads to be "gas stove rat"... which tells me he's probably a dishwasher in a greasy spoon diner who dreams of riding the BRT!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Yea gonzo you must be the idiot if you get gas stoverat from ga stoverat.You must be a heck of a firefighter if you can't pull a whole 10 hr shift with out laying down. might want to get some vagisil so you can make it.

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    dday your are so smart catching that typo on the word trash,I guess you are so pround of your accomplishment that you forgot about the subject of the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GASTOVERAT View Post
    Yea gonzo you must be the idiot if you get gas stoverat from ga stoverat.You must be a heck of a firefighter if you can't pull a whole 10 hr shift with out laying down. might want to get some vagisil so you can make it.
    So... you work in a restaurant in Georgia.... wear the tinfoil hat and sunscreen, the Georgia heat has fried the two of the three brain cells you possess...

    Allow me to reiterate my original post in answer to your assinine post...

    You are another idiot with no fracking clue.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 06-03-2008 at 07:52 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASTOVERAT View Post
    dday your are so smart catching that typo on the word trash,I guess you are so pround of your accomplishment that you forgot about the subject of the post.
    GASTOVERAT,
    How about you lose the attitude and listen to the people around you instead of spouting off at the mouth. I have alot of respect for many of the members of this forum and you might learn alot from some of these guys if you just sit back and listen.
    Mark Zanghetti
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    Goshen Fire Dept.
    Waterford, CT

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    Hey stove meat head- Where you from, what do you do....cause I bet ice cream for a week that Gonzo has forgotten about more fire than you have seen in your entire career!!!!!!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    A Chief retired from a small town career fire department in our county. When he did, the City Manager decided it would be a good time to save the city some money, and not pay the firefighters on duty from 2200-0700 because they were "sleeping". They were paid for the time they were up if they had to get up for a call.

    Needless to say...this didn't last too long.

    Oh..during the time there was no Fire Chief....the Police Chief was also the Fire Chief. So much for having a Deputy Chief!

    A busy shift at my station consists of 4 runs. I think I'm about to graduate into the big leagues of a large city department though . Looking forward to being treated like dirt in the academy I'm ready to run 4 calls before lunch!
    Last edited by TED1435; 06-16-2008 at 12:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TED1435 View Post
    A Chief retired from a small town career fire department in our county. When he did, the City Manager decided it would be a good time to save the city some money, and not pay the firefighters on duty from 2200-0700 because they were "sleeping". They were paid for the time they were up if they had to get up for a call.

    Needless to say...this didn't last too long.

    Oh..during the time there was no Fire Chief....the Police Chief was also the Fire Chief. So much for having a Deputy Chief!

    A busy shift at my station consists of 4 runs. I think I'm about to graduate into the big leagues of a large city department though . Looking forward to being treated like dirt in the academy I'm ready to run 4 calls before lunch!
    If a city/town manager /mayor mutt told me that I would not be paid from 2200 to 0700 because I was "sleeping".. then I would go home and sleep in my own bed with my wife and they could call me if a call came in. Then I could drive in my POV to the station observing all the traffic laws, get to deduct the mileage to and from the firehouse on my taxes, etc.



    4 runs before lunch? how about 4 before breakfast!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 06-16-2008 at 04:01 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Eh guys... yeah, the situation is similar to that of my composite station back home. The guys are "volunteering" between similar hours and on OT if a call comes in during that time. Problem is they would get home late enough and have to be back at the station for turnover early enough that most of them agree it's better to just stay at the station. Rumour was the shift was designed for just that reason- to make going home just enough of a pain in the *** that the guys would agree to not go home.

    But admittedly the guys got used to it and seem to do okay with it. I still think it's one of those things nagging gripes that won't go away.

    Solution? New chief... We'll know in September when the current one retires.


    As for my other gig... as I might have mentioned before we're not allowed to sleep on the industrial side. No justification other than "we get paid too much." Nice- they pay a frickin garbage man 80k a year... and we're told we get paid too much to do OUR job?
    Ian "Eno" McLeod
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    HESD / OFD
    "To me, the charm of an encyclopedia is that it knows and I needn't."

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    4 before breakfast would be amazing

    I'm ready to get out of this little station!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TED1435 View Post
    4 before breakfast would be amazing

    I'm ready to get out of this little station!
    Now what is wrong w/ 21? J/K!
    No longer an explorer, but I didn't wanna lose my posts.

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    This coming from the guy who left 21?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TED1435 View Post
    A Chief retired from a small town career fire department in our county. When he did, the City Manager decided it would be a good time to save the city some money, and not pay the firefighters on duty from 2200-0700 because they were "sleeping". They were paid for the time they were up if they had to get up for a call.

    Needless to say...this didn't last too long.

    Oh..during the time there was no Fire Chief....the Police Chief was also the Fire Chief. So much for having a Deputy Chief!

    A busy shift at my station consists of 4 runs. I think I'm about to graduate into the big leagues of a large city department though . Looking forward to being treated like dirt in the academy I'm ready to run 4 calls before lunch!
    If that happens to you, I know a successful attorney that has won that type of case several times. Ask me how I know. No, it was not in this dept, or any other public agency.
    The opinions are mine alone, and do not represent the department I am with, or any firefighters I work with.

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    We change shifts at 0700.

    Bedhall useage is "officially" authorized from 1300-1600 and 2030-0630.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Talking Gotta love "work"

    Quote Originally Posted by LtLarry View Post
    Your gonna love this. Shift starts 0700...check rigs then breakfast....Clean house/daily chores.....training/preplans/plug flushing/etc......1200 lunch......1300 Nap time (yes you heard it right nap time from 1300 till 1600 written into the contract.).....1600 Vocal alarm check and up from nap......work as needed.......start supper.......eat....clean kitchen......free time......beds again at 2200. Thats the rough schedual. Usually we try to have all our pressing business taken care of by 1200 and the rest of the day is yours. Personel can hit the bed anytime at the discretion of the Lt. BC's are cool about things so long as the work gets done.

    Haha ours is almost identical, we only average 5 calls a shift at my assigned station

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    Shift starts at 0800, house duties and breakfast/ BS'ing until lunch, some guys PT.

    1300-1600 is supposed to be "training time". One Batt Chief has restricted 1200-1330 as personal time (allowing for naps).

    1600 and on is your time...

    Weekends and holidays are chill...

    If anyone has that documentation on napping and reducing your chances of heart disease, I'd love to get a copy of it!

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    our chief has told us that most days we only have about 5 hours of work to do (not counting runs) and outside of that we can sleep if we want, as long as it's not in the recliners (the "public" might see us)

    although some braniacs think that means awake from 6-1300, and complain if training or inspections or whatever have to be pushed back until the afternoon

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    there has been many days that I have come in to work, checked out the stuff, done the station crap, eaten breakfast and been in bed by 10am.

    Now, some outside of our job would look at that and think, man, what lazy *** firefighters... nothing but a bunch of slobs...

    but, working in a first response area that includes highrises, 3 jails, 3 homeless shelters and what not, being on an EMS unit on the weekends when all the party go-ers are out, i'm going to get all the sleep I can when I can because I know i'm gonna be up all night.

    And when your medic is doing 15-20 runs a day and the pumper is doing just as many, your not going to see a bunch of guys up all day because they know that, more than likely they are going to be up all night and they are no good to themselves, to each other and to the public if they are dead tired
    The Box. You opened it. We Came...

    "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

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