Thread: Quick Question

  1. #1
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    Default Quick Question

    Okay, here's the scenario:

    You have a two vehicle head on collision. You have one victim trapped in the most heavily damaged car. The windshield on this vehicle is intact, and you need to removed the roof to get to the victim. Would you:

    A) Remove the windshield and then remove the roof?

    B) Flap the roof on to the hood with the windshield still attached?

    I saw option B done this evening to a car in a training exercise. I was wondering how everyone else does it.

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    Or just remove the windshield and roof all together at the same time

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    That is also an option

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    either way will work...if the entire roof is removed you will need to cut the windshield all the way accross at the point where the A pillars will be cut...if u fold the entire roof onto the hood, u don't really need to cut the windshield, but to prevent it from spidering and pieces going all over the place u may want to cut it across...the other option would be to roll part of the roof back...i know FDNY likes to do this sometimes...where you use a pike pole held firmly across the center of the roof behind the occupant and roll the roof back over the pikepole...of course cutting needs to be done on the front pillars in order to perform this...this will save the time of cutting the back pillars and center pillars of a vehicle if only front seat passengers need to be extricated...

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    We would remove the windshield and remove the roof if we had to. We really don't flap roofs anymore.

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    All other things being equal and "perfect world" - we would remove the roof & windshield as 1 unit (provided there are no air bag/curtain devices in the A post at or above where we would cut)

    That is also something not mentioned in the considerations for which technique to use. More and more vehicles today are equipped with passive restrain systems (i.e. Air bags & Seat Belt Tensioner). Along with this, car makers are getting more and more creative on component location & some of these components are showing up in the roof line. These devices might be just where you want to cut for a partial roof flap.

    I personally do not prefer or advocate using the half flap unless you have no other alternative (i.e. restricted access or object across roof) for the following reasons:
    1) Passive Restraint System component location
    2) Insurance wise a half flap is just as totaled as a full removal so why not get the extra working room.
    3) NJfirefighterPA mentioned that a half flap is faster due to fewer post to cut. While I agree that this is true, a good 'sip saw on the smaller A (and B post of a 4 door) working in tandem with the Hydraulic Cutters on the larger B / C post will be almost as fast and again I think the extra working room is worth the time.

    Regardless of what method you choose, you MUST be sure what you are cutting through so interior trim removal prior to cutting is paramount.

    These are simply my thoughts & opinions - YMMV.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
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    YMMV?

    Actually, N2DFire, we do the opposite of you with our tools. We use the cutters on the A and B and let the cip saw work on the C. Same deal though. Good information in your post.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I'm with Bones......... I would rather use the cip on the C posts and the cutters on the A and B posts.

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    Take the whole roof if you can!

    One point I'd like to make: Whether you're flapping or removing the roof, if you are taking the windshield with it make SURE you restrain it from falling out of the frame as it is removed. I saw an extrication dummy get severely crunched when the windshield fell out of its frame as the roof was being flapped over the victim.

    I believe the French call it a "Guillotine".

    Be safe, Tim

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    you guys are prolly right that if you have multiple teams working with sepetate tools on seperate pillars it could be done just as fast...i've actually heard of some dept.'s haveing two hydraulic cutters for this example as well as multiple vehicle accidents...like i said...this is just another option...it can be done...

    u mentioned auto makers where moving equipment up to the roof line...do you know which makes or models as I have never seen or heard this before and I would like to look into this further...

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    I know all or at some of the European car makers now have side impacts bags and curtains.

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    Originally posted by NJfirefighterPA
    you guys are prolly right that if you have multiple teams working with sepetate tools on seperate pillars it could be done just as fast...i've actually heard of some dept.'s haveing two hydraulic cutters for this example as well as multiple vehicle accidents...like i said...this is just another option...it can be done...

    Actually, you can remove a roof very very quickly with just 1 cip saw and 1 set of cutters. While the person with the cutters is cutting the A & B posts, another one is using the cip saw on the C posts. Use a 3rd person to cut along the bottom of the windshield while the other 2 are cutting the posts.

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    I doesn't matter if it is a training exercise or an actual working call, the patient is the determining factor in what type of evolution you will perform on a vehicle. Alot of the decisions made will be based upon patient condition and patient position. When it comes to removing the windshield on a heavy frontal impact with entrapment I am always concerned with the glass debris that you get anytime that you cut a windshield.

    Depending upon the position of the patient and the amount of damage to the vehicle (goes to degree that you can cover up the patient) it might be best to remove the roof pillars and walk the winshield forward without cutting it at all, just cut the posts. Once you can walk the roof forward a little ways then you can flip it over in a reverse flap. If the roof is large (ie a SUV) then you can cut the A and B posts and the cut accross the roof with the saw-z-all and perform the same evolution. As you are walking the winshield forward you can get a tarp or extrication blanket into the area you have just created to protect the patient from glass debris. You have to remember that glass cannot be flushed out of a wound, it has to be picked or scrubbed out.

    If the patient condition and position allow it the best case senario would be to cut all the roof pillars and then accross the bottom of the windshield, removing the entire roof with windshield and going forward with it to avoid dragging the windshield over the patient.

    IMHO in the time it takes to do a roof flap (escecially on a heavly damaged vehicle with any kind of roof distortion) it takes pretty much the same time to remove the entire roof, we often will uses multiple hyd cutters or the saw-z-all.

    Another option, although a slower option, is to use a mastic cutter and remove the winshield in one piece without cutting it at all. These can be purchased at winshield repair shops.

    Remember if you perform the extrication safe and fast then I figuire that you did the job right.

    Shane

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    Removing the roof in a timely fashion is important for better access to the patient, and giving the patient better peace of mind, as well as many other things. However removing the roof (or flapping it) as quickly as possible is often not the most important thing, particularly if the patient’s feet are still trapped. Unfortunately a true assessment of the condition of the patient’s feet cannot be determined until the door is popped.

    By cutting the A-post and the bottom of the windshield in one motion, you are left with no useable A-post if it is cut relatively flush with the dash. If you are faced with a dash displacement later in the operation, you may wish that you had some more of the A-post left to use. Sometimes the hydraulic ram wants to wander sideways taking away purchase. By repositioning on the remaining 6-12” of the A-post a straight push can usually be accomplished because it is relatively inline with the door jam. If this doesn’t work, then a come-a-long can be attached to the remaining A-post stub and an anchor point below the bumper. This is a far better option than attaching the come-a-long to the steering column because of the u-joint issue associated with tilt steering.

    An A-post “stub” can give you a valuable tool in your toolbox if faced with a tricky operation. The post can be made safe with proper protection and often does not impair access. It’s much easier to cutoff the remaining stub if you have to than to put it back on if you need it. Of course if the vehicle is equipped with SRS everywhere then extreme caution must be exercised no matter what post you cut.

    Removing (or flapping) a roof by completely removing the windshield in the conventional way may not be the “fastest” way, however with proper training and teamwork the difference between removing the windshield and cutting the bottom of it is marginal.

    Just my 2 cents……. Stay Safe

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    certainly as '77 says that IS the most efficient way to go if you ahve 2 things, man power and good leadership. Also if we get '77s department on M/A I will also use them as back up extrication if we are makin good head way in case a tool or power plant craps out they have thiers already out and ready to roll in .....just another something else to think about too.
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    Originally posted by Bones42
    YMMV?
    Sorry - picked that one up on another forum.

    YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

    As far as the Saw vs Cutters on which post - Our thoughts are the saw can take the smaller post while the cutter (or combi tool) can crush/cut the larger post faster. Your method would have the cutters making short (and fast) work of the smaller post while the saw chews through the larger ones. I see your logic in that. Next time we're in the scrap yard I'm going to try it both ways and see which is faster (for us) under real life limited manpower conditions.

    In a "Perfect World" with enough manpower (which we all know almost never happens) we would actually end up cutting B & C post w/ cutters and sawing A post to A post through the windshield with the 'cip saw because we run an O cutter and a Combi Tool preconnected (only bring out the spreaders for "the big stuff") so we can run 1 tool down each side & the saw up front all at the same time - works pretty slick in training when everyone is there

    firefighter1962

    You make a good point about having some A post to play with if needed however this is a good example of where you need to look at the overall situation and plan your extrication carefully. Also I agree that the chain wrap around the steering wheel is a bad practice to be avoided if at all possible, but there are still other ways to displace a dash.
    - You can simply displace sideways using your spreaders.
    - You can use a halligan to make a hole in the cosmetics of the dash (I.E. the old heater box area) & drop a chain through and wrap the structure of the dash itself.
    - In more modern Uni-Body cars you can actually "roll" the dash by making relief cuts in the floor pan, and letting the front of the car "break off" and roll down (provided the car isn't already flat to the ground or can be lifted and is cribbed the right way)

    My point is - leaving some post to work with is a good tool (idea) to have in your tool box, but don't get into the mindset that the ONLY way you can roll the dash is with the A post (Note - I do not feel that is what you were saying - simply stating this for the benefit of other readers).

    As for assessing the Pt's feet for entrapment - you should be able to do this by crawling through a window and/or over the seat. If the total damage to the vehicle and/or obstructions make this impossible then you should simply assume they ARE trapped and plan on having to do a dash displacement as part of your evolution.

    Just as you let your overall impression of the Pt lead your medical treatment (if it looks bad it probably is bad), so too should you let your overall impression of the car guide your extrication plan (If it looks like they may be trapped then they probably are trapped).


    Please note that none of my remarks were intended as criticism or meant to contradict anyone else - they are simply offered up as ideas for discussion. When communicating in a written format - we loose all the nuances and subtleties that the spoken word brings with it and thus we are more easily perceived as being argumentative & adversarial - this is not my intent.
    Last edited by N2DFire; 03-11-2004 at 09:28 AM.
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    You can also lift the dash byt using your spreaders if you have the short A post above the dash. Make a relief cut in the fender just inside the firewall at the top. Make a Pie cut in the A post and then use the spreaders to lift.

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    my terminology maybe a bit rusty, but what's a "pie cut?"

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    "pie cut?" - two cuts angled towards each other, like a piece of pie or a pizza slice. Makes a triange shape that can be removed allowing the cutters to make a third cut deeper into the post. Kind of looks like this... >
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by Bones42
    "pie cut?" - two cuts angled towards each other, like a piece of pie or a pizza slice. Makes a triange shape that can be removed allowing the cutters to make a third cut deeper into the post. Kind of looks like this... >
    That would be the one.................

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    I was really just wondering if always removing the windshield before removing the roof was a good idea.

    The department I saw the other day simply cut all the posts and folded the roof on to the hood with the windshield still attached. I haven't seen this before and was curious if anyone else ever did a cut like that, or if the windshield was removed and the whole roof lifted off?

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    Search for "windshield" in this category... we've discussed this many times.

    Many people caution against saying "always" and "never."

    Keep your options open, and BE READY to move to plans B, C, D... etc.

    PERSONALLY (and typically) I opt to take the whole thing. No messing with folds and creases and flaps. Cut the posts, finish the cut on the windshield, and get it out of the way. As has been stated, use caution when moving the assembly near a patient... try to move it forward, or off to a side.

    A skilled crew can accomplish this in nearly the same time as it takes to implement a "flap" of some type, so why not try to get the most bang (space, clearance, access) for your time?

    BUT there are times when flaps, partial flaps, etc might be the method of choice. Position of obstacles (trees, poles, buildings, etc) plays into this decision a great deal.
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    Default Flapping Forward Saves Time, Sometimes Lives

    We practice flapping the roof forward as much as possible in today's newer carsfor many reasons.
    One point to make clear is that we do not sevre the "a" post we cut app 2-3" back from the windshield on the roof and cut "b" "c" post where indicated by scene. Then we simply flap forward and secure.

    Reason #1--with the windshield in tact & roof forward it limits our personnel from making the fatal mistake of working in the frontal airbag locations as in Dayton, OH.

    Reason #2--With glass construction constantly changing it is becoming more difficult to remove if we don't work in that area.

    Reason #3--Also with newer techniques many times the dash is displaced or raised which then removes windshield and all.

    Just a few reasons, which do not stop anyone from removing, or flapping in a different manner.

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    Reason #1--with the windshield in tact & roof forward it limits our personnel from making the fatal mistake of working in the frontal airbag locations as in Dayton, OH
    Ok, I'm curious. How does having the roof flapped onto the hood of the car keep you from kneeling on the front passenger seat using jaws on the drivers seat? Not questioning the method, just don't see how it would have anything to do with the non-fatal Dayton incident.

    I have also flapped the roof forward using this method, but it depends on the car.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    ditto Bones ..........I could not get that to compute either.....
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