Water Pressure Problems

[LRFireE135]

I am researching problems with fire hydrants supplying adequate water pressure in water systems and would really appreciate it if everyone would take a few minutes and answer these questions for me. Please answer these questions completely, and to the best of your knowledge as the answers will be compiled into a research report for a college class I am taking.

Thanks Everyone!

1. Is your town, district, county, etc. completely hydranted?

2. If NO, Are there areas of your town that are hydranted?

3. Does your department experience inadequate water pressure in certain areas of your town, district, etc?

4. Are there certain parts of the area protected by your department where tankers are automatically dispatched when the call comes in for a structure fire?

5. Does your department utilize mutual aid from multiple departments for "tanker shuttles" in these areas OR any hydranted/unhydranted areas of your district? (Please specify which one you mean)

6. Is your water system capable of supporting a 1500 gpm pumper at a working structure fire?

7. What is your department's average turn around time for tankers in your tanker shuttle?

8. How many tankers can your department depend on responding for tanker shuttle operations at a confirmed working structure fire?

9. Has your engine ever run out of water while drafting in a hydranted area of your district while operating on a working structure fire?

10. If YES, how long did it take for a tanker to arrive and dump it's load before your interior crews had water again?

11. Does your department face this problem frequently in hydranted areas of your response area?

12. Has your department ever lost a structure due to running out of water and having to wait on a tanker to return to the scene in a hydranted area?

13. Has the lack of a sufficient water supply been the result of the loss of someone's home, business, etc. in your district in the last 6 months?

14. If YES, about how many structures have been lost?

15. Has your engineer come over the radio while you are inside fighting active fire and said "YOU'RE OUT OF WATER!" to you in the last 6 months?

16. If YES, about how many times has this occurred?

17. Do you have any ideas on how to solve this problem in your area? If YES, please elaborate.

18. Does your department have any solutions to this problem at this time? If YES, please elaborate.

19. How many tankers does your department currently operate?

20. How many gallons of water will each tanker hold?

21. What is the make up of your department's primary response area?

22. Has your department ever had to request a 2nd alarm for more tankers to assist in a tanker shuttle while fighting a working fire?

23. What do you estimate your department's 2004 fiscal operating budget to be?

24. Does your department have full time personnel on duty at your fire stations? If YES, How many?

25. Has a firefighter on your department ever died or incurred serious injury as a result of your engine running out of water while a crew was still operating inside?

26. Can your water pressure problem be corrected by having the water department boost the pressure in the area(s) of your district in question?

27. How many structure fires, car fires, brush fires, etc. does your department average per month?

28. Of these fires, how many have been in a hydranted area with inadequate pressure?

29. Does your department color code hydrants based on water flow by either painting the tops of them to NFPA standards or marking them on maps located in your trucks, stations, etc?

30. How many hydrants do you estimate there are in your district?

31. Of the hydrants in your district, how many are currently fully functional and able to supply a 1500 gpm pumper flowing at 100% capacity?

32. How many hydrants are there in your town, district, etc. which are only able to provide 999 gallons per minute or less?
(NFPA color code ORANGE: 500-999 gpm; and NFPA color code RED: 0-499 gpm)

33. How many hydrants in your town, district, etc. are able to flow 1000 gpm and up?
(NFPA color code GREEN: 1000-1499 gpm; and NFPA color code BLUE: 1500 gpm & up)

34. What is your department's estimated average response time and turnout to a reported working structure fire?

35. What do you estimate the average water pressure to be in your hydrant system?

I just want to thank you all so much in advance for taking the time to answer these questions. Getting a wide and large response on this will help me out extremely and I just want you all to know that I appreciate the effort.

I may post more questions on this later and would appreciate those of you who answer my first list of questions check back in a few weeks to see if some more questions have been posted.

THANKS!

[Weruj1]

1-yes
2-n/a
3-yes
4-no
5-we have auto aid ........no tankers
6-in some areas.......all our pumps are 1250gpm
7-n/a
8-n/a
9-yes
10-n/a
11-no
12-no
13-no
14-n/a
15-n/a
16-n/a
17-in certian areas of town we would have to consider a tanker shuttle but would need to either call early or make LONG hose lays.
18-see 17
19-0
20-n/a....each engine has 750 gal tnak
21-suburban with a run out to the south area.
22-n/a
23-400K
24-1 FT Chief w/2 EMT'S on duty from 8-4 7 days a week.
25-no
26-no
27-2...very rough guesstimate
28-all
29-no
30-325
31-1/3 again very rough guess
32-1/3
33-1/3
34-4 mins
35-50 psi static

[LRFireE135]

Weruj...Thank you for taking the time to answer this. I was really starting to wonder if anyone was going to help me out or not. Please fill this out everyone. I would greatly appreciate it!

BUMP

[Weruj1]

well to be honest thats alot of questions for a post....I had to print it out to reply.

[arhaney]

Sometime tomorrow I'll try to answer all of the questions. Like weruj1 I'll have to print them off and run down the list.

[captfire3]

1 no
2 very little
3 yes
4 no
5 yes tanker shuttle
6 no
7 not sure
8 5 to 6
9 n/a
10 n/a
11 n/a
12 yes
13 yes
14 1
15 yes
16 2 or 3
17 no
18 don't know
19 2
20 2,700 and 4,000
21 47 sq mi
22 yes
23 80,000
24 no
25 no
26 a little
27 15 to 20
28 about 5
29 no
30 30
31 25%
32 don't know
33 n/a
34 5 to 7 min
35 n/a

[lmrchief2]

Here we go
1 No
2 Yes
3 No
4 yes
5 yes-that is what our neighboring dept usually brings anyway it keeps the engin available
6 ? 1000-1500 somewhere in that area
7 realistically 25 minutes with travel time
8 3
9 No
10 N/A
11 No
12 No
13 No
14 N/A
15 No
16 N/A
17 More tankers if occured
18 Not really a problem at this time
19 1
20 1800-3000 gallons
21 Rural
22 Yes
23 $142,000
24 No
25 No
26 Yes
27 Maybe 1.5 avg.
28 0
29 No
30 576
31 ?
32 All
33 All We run between 1000-1500 gpm in all hydrants
34 11 minutes on scene time
35 50-60 psi

Our system is fairly new being put in over the last 10 years it is still expanding so we hope tha capabilities stay where they are. With that said we do have times where there is no water with the installations and taps to the new system being put in. Especially where the loops are being completed. This is communicated to us by the water department as they take part of the system down. We will also be low on water when the the tower is taken down for repairs. Luckily no fires the last time they took it down for the week. Kinda nice having a water tower right next door to the station

Hope this helps we do not run many fires. For that matter this year so far we are not running much of anything

[WaffleHut]

1) no
2) yes, about half is watered
3) nothing signifant
4) no, not untill the first arriving engine determines that a tanker will be needed
5) yes, mutal aid is for tankers.
6) no
7) average turn around time 4 - 13 minutes depending on variables
8) 2 confirmed, (1 is a 1250 gallon engine) and then whatever tankers/engines show up for mutal aid
9) no
10) n/a
11) n/a
12) yes
13) no, but nieghboring community, yes
14) 1 house
15) no
16) n/a
17) yes, add dry hydrants
18) no
19) 2 *1 is an 1250 gallon engine)
20) 3000, 1250
21) farm, forest, rural
22) yes
23) n/a
24) yes, 2 in one station, 1 in one station
25) no
26) n/a
27) 2
28) n/a
29) no
30) 20
31) 2 maybe.
32) all
33) 2
34) response for first engine 4 - 6min, 2nd engine 5-10
35) n/a

[arhaney]

1. No
2. Yes
3. No
4. No
5. Yes
6. In most areas yes
7. 10 Minutes
8. 5
9. Not in the last 7 or 8 years
10. N/A
11. N/A
12. no
13. no
14. N/A
15. no
16. N/A
17. N/A
18. N/A
19. 4
20. 3,500, 3,200, 1,500, 1,000
21. Rural
22. Yes
23. Not Sure
24. no
25. No
26. N/A
27. 4
28. N/A
29. No
30. 20
31. 15
32. 5
33. 15
34. 5-6 Minutes
35. 80 PSI

[LRFireE135]

I just wanted to thank all of those who have replied so far for the feedback. This will help me tremendously and I appreciate the help. I am trying to keep this at the top of the forums for a atleast another week so I can get atleast 20 responses. I know it's not necessarily liked for people to bump posts up, but I ask that you excuse me this once as it is for a good purpose.

Thanks!

[Lewiston2FF]

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes, Unhydranted
6. Yes, but we only run 1250gpm
7. 7-10 min for tanker to leave and return.
8. 2-3
9. No
10. N/A
11. N/A
12. No
13. No
14. N/A
15. No
16. N/A
17. N/A
18. N/A
19. 1
20. 2000 gal and 2 engines w/ 1000 gal tanks.
21. Residential, farms, light commercial.
22. Yes
23. 120K
24. No
25. No
26. Communication with the Water Authority can increase water pressure if needed.
27. 4
28. none
29. No
30. 100
31. 50% Very rough estimate. With a phone call that could be a much as 90%
32. 10
33. 90
34. 4 minutes with 8 on the first engine out. Second engine 6-7mins with an additional 5-6.
35. 65 psi static.

[k1500chevy97]

Ok .
Going to post a set of q/a for each dept I am on.

City dept .

1. Yes
2. n/a
3. Yes , some of the older residential areas
4. no
5. no
6. Yes
7. n/a
8. n/a
9. no
10. n/a
11. n/a
12. no
13. no
14. n/a
15. no
16. n/a
17. n/a
18. n/a
19. 0
20. n/a
21. low density residential/ low density commercial
22. no
23. unknown
24. Yes most the time 1 man
25. no
26. probally but the whole system in that area needs replaced
27. 4 structure and roughly 20 "other types"
28. about %30
29. Yes they are painted no maps are not in the trucks
30. roughly 350
31. about 75-90
32. about 100
33. about 225-250
34. responce time for first engine about 2 mins full responce depends could be 2 mins or 15.
35. average about 55

============================== ============================== =====

County Dept.

1. no
2. yes (private owned)
3. yes
4. yes
5. yes both
6. no
7. depends on how far it is to water source average is about 6-8 mins
8. 2
9. yes
10. about 3-4 min
11. yes
12. no , most the time structure was lost by the time we got on scene
13. no
14. n/a
15. yes
16. twice
17. Possibly having larger tanks on the engines and dont start interior until tender is at least halfway to the scene unless there is a person inside.
18. no
19. the district operates 12 our station has 1
20. ours holds 1480 gallons and is an off-road tender(6x6) another holds 1480(off road), 2 hold 1800(off road), 4 hold 1200(off road), 3 hold 3000 (2on road 1 off) and 1 holds 3500 (on road).
21. Rural with residental commercial and industrial scattered.
22. yes
23. unknown
24. Only command staff. currently they all work out of the central headquarters and 4 other stations 8-5pm and respond from their homes during "non buisness hours"
25. no
26. no
27. my dept about 8 fires , the district about 70
28. 0
29. no
30. about 150
31. 0
32. unknown
33. unknown
34. Volunteer about 10-15 mins
35. lol whatever the pumper can suck

[LRFireE135]

Why is it that so many people view a forum like this asking for help and feedback, yet so few apply. Please, if you absolutely positively don't want to post a reply to my question, then atleast answer the poll so I can get some kind of broad guess!!!!

Thanks! God Bless!

[firefighter3531]

1. no
2.yes
3.yes
4.no
5.no all pumpers carry 1000 gal
6.in some areas
7.unk
8. all vollie can't depend on anything
9.no
10.
11.
12.no
13.no
14.
15.no
16.
17.get some hydrants put in areas that we have none
18.water dept is currently putting in bigger feeder pipes
19.none
20.
21.35 sq miles 4200 homes ans a bunch of small buss.
22.no
23.65000 tax levy 15000 from donations
24.no
25.no
26.yes
27.30
28.5
29.yes just started this past saturday painting them never has been done before
30.800
31.100 est
32.200 est
33.500 est
34.6 min
35.35-50 est
it has been awhile for me testing hyd so this is all rough est and the best i can remember form the past hope this hepls u out john boy

[SwampBox]

1. yes
2. N/A
3. yes
4. no (No Tankers)
5. N/A
6. No
7. N/A
8. 0
9. No
10. N/A
11. No
12. no
13. No
14. N/A
15. No
16. N/A
17. N/A
18. N/A
19. 0
20. N/A
21. suburb/industrial
22. No
23. 250,000
24. 3 daytime only (M-F)
25. No
26. Yes (When the situation arises we call HQ and they call the water plant to increase flow)
27. 15
28. I'll say 1 but could be 0
29. No
30. 480
31. None
32. Only about 1%
33. 99%
I found 31 through 33 a bit difficult to answer but it is around 1000 to 1200 gpm's for most of them.
34. 5 minutes and 10 people
35. 80 psi


Hope this helps, Mark

[SHVFD_Asst_Chief]

1. yes
2.
3. yes
4. no - however, mutual aid may bring tankers
5. no - although we have participated in shuttle operations
6. depending on hydrant
7.
8. none, our department does not have tankers
9. yes
10. less than 5 minutes
11. fortunatly no
12. yes/no. Strucutre was already lost before units arrived.
13. no
14.
15. no
16.
17. not at this time.
18. yes - call for as much help as possible.
19. none
20.
21. suburban (not sure how FEMA will classify it, but that is how we do.)
22. yes
23. unknown
24. no
25. no
26. yes and no
27. 2-3 in our district; 4-8 mutual aid.
28. none that I am aware of.
29. no
30. I do not know.
31. Guessing about 70%
32. About 10%
33. About 20%
34. Average response time about 5 minutes, number of personnel depends on time of day or night.
35. unknown.

[LRFireE135]

Thanks go out to my two brothers who responded after my last plea and to those of you who answered my poll if you didn't want to respond directly.

I am needing to keep this active still...until atleast monday. I am hoping to get 30 replies directly and 100 on the poll...I promise after monday evening, I will let the sleeping dog lie. Just please, do me the favor and respond to this...


Thanks!

[Dickey]

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes, our tanker is second out in those areas.
5. Nothing automatic but has been called several times.
6. In most areas, yes.
7. Depends on weather, amount of tankers involved, etc.
8. One from our dept, 3-4 from surrounding depts.
9. Not yet had to pump in those bad areas.
10. n/a
11. Not really, great potential for bad things to happen however.
12. no
13. no
14. n/a
15. no
16. n/a
17. more pumping stations would take care of the problem
18. just call mutual aid tankers ASAP in those areas
19. 1 tanker
20. 1750 gallons
21. bedroom community, residential and commercial, popular lake area as well.
22. yes
23. $300,000-$350,000
24. yes, one full time chief, one full time inspector, both usually 8am-5pm
25. no
26. yes
27. per month is 0-2
28. not many if at all
29. we have a hydrant map, used to paint them but not anymore.
30. couple hundred at least, best guess
31. just about all of them, at least 3/4 of them
32. about a 1/4 at max.
33. about 3/4 of them
34. average response time is 5 minutes day or night
35. average is 1000gpm-1400gpm in most hydrants.

Pop. 8500 mostly urban to semi-urban residential and commercial, bedroom community in 5.5 square miles next to a large metro city.

We really only have one area that doesn't have hydrants and 2 areas that the hydrants don't work good in. One area is the area around the lake and beach areas that do not have any hydrants at all. The other two areas are development additions for several houses in each area. Not enough water pressure in these areas to run a residental yard sprinkler if someone else flushes the toilet. The City will be installing a new pump soon but so far have yet to deliver.

_________________________
Lt.Jason Knecht
Altoona Fire Rescue
Altoona, WI

[Dave1983]

yes
n/a
no
no
no
yes
n/a
n/a
why would you draft if you have hydrants?
n/a
n/a
no
no
n/a
n/a
n/a
0
no
suburban
n/a
$3.5 mil
yes-at least 9
no
yes
10
none
no
400+
all
none
all
4 minutes
90psi

Most of our hydrants are 500' apart. However, we do have some areas where it can be 2000'-3000' apart. In these areas we set up relay pumping operations with our 5" LDH.

Dave