FDNy VS the Vollies.

[blancety]

OK, in no particular order.

Is the "no volunteer" clause purely about membership. I don't think so. I think it has more to do with allowing departments that supplement career staff with POC or vollie personnel a chance to improve their manpower. For example: A Town near me is combo with career and POC. Career staff gets the crap pounded out of them, as do the surrounding Twons when they can't manage their own calls. Yet when they go for more manpower, the Chief pulls out his POC roster (of which only a few show up) and says it not necessary.

Does the IAFF want every volunteer outfit in the Country gone? I don't think so. Do they want to make the job safer for their existing members, including those in combo departments with sporadic manpower availablity. Yes.

Will they complain if their membership increase? No.

If you ran a Union, would you? Doubt it...

As for the "working at the fire academy" argument. I work at our County Academy. I pay into my County retirement.(have to same system), so it doesn't matter as far as who ultimatly pays any benefit I may be unfortunate enough to earn that way.

As far as working for your own Fire Instructor company? I knew a guy that was an Airline pilot, nothing stopped him from doing that.

Remember, the argument about long term benefits and injuries cam out of Hartford, where the City proposed the "no volunteer" rule. They were covering their *****.

For those that think the the Eboard of the International is sitting in their conference room, with the lights turned down and a big map of the US on the wall, counted each vollie department as it gets phased out; SWITCH TO DECAF.

The International is concerned about the safety and welfare of its members. Safety and welfare include pay, job security, and working conditions. Volunteering and being a career firefighter can (notice I said can not will) affect another Union members job security.
Its really not that hard to understand. And if you are not a Union Firefighter, the affect on you from these by laws are minimal. If you are a Union Firefighter, then you only have an issue if you volunteer somewhere else.

Like I said before......this will go on for weeks, and we'll still be in the same place.

Dave

[blancety]

Originally posted by TillerMan25
I don't know if your VFD has alot of Career guys Volunteering or not, but if there are, and several of them quit to the point where you are not providing a service, will you have a problem with it then?

What would you do if you lost these members for another reason?

Originally posted by TillerMan25
Yeah, but by your statement, it's completely Ok for your Brothers who do have to suffer those feelings? Sitting back and doing nothing because it's "Not in my backyard" does nothing to help the cause. This is why the union is so strong. Whenever they have a problem with one of their locals, the International and other locals stick together and support one another.

Chris, its not a "nimby" attitude. You can't attack the entire IAFF for a bylaw. Your feelings about the IAFF are pretty obvious. If it wasn't for this, you would find something else to rant against 'em about. And by the way, Unions are supposed to stick together. They are a labor force. You know that whole "not crossing the picket line thing" and boycotting non-union goods.

Originally posted by TillerMan25
It seems as though when a VFd has a problem however, we all take the "Every Man for Himself" attitude. Well, when it hits your backyard maybe you will get involved and help the Volunteer Fire SERVICE defeat this problem being pressed on us by the IAFF.

Rather than defeating "this problem being pressed on us by the IAFF"
why not expend the same amount of time and energy recruiting new members? How many members would you really lose if all the IAFF guys quit? Would it really force your department to close? I doubt it!

Dave

[captain247]

Are there any IAFF locals on Long Island?

Yes there are ......

In Nassau County there are 71 departments 2 of them (Garden City and Long Beach) have a few paid IAFF firefighters on duty.

[tny]

I have no clue where the bulk of them live. I would imagine either in the City or on Long Island or Northern NJ. Which is my point. Are there any IAFF locals on Long Island?

FDNY Residency Requirement

You must be a resident of the City of New York, Nassau-Suffolk Counties on Long Island, or the Upstate Counties of Westchester, Putnan, Rockland or Orange. Sorry can’t be a resident of the Garden State – NJ. All of the Counties listed above have IAFF locals in varying numbers.

[Jasper 45]

In answer to some questions, my viewpoint as to whether the union is a nanny or not is yes. In a sense yes, thats what we pay union dues for, that is why unions evolved. Their concern is our wages hours and working conditions. Does the union limit our outside work as to some of the other jobs listed? NO. Does this make it a perfect system? No system is perfect, we as a local tried to do the best we could for our members. My viewpoint is strictly dealing with my local, not NYC or Metro Dc or any where else there is a debate. My extent to that is through the IAFF and honestly I dont know enough about those scenarios to offer much of a debate. I was offering my opinion because I felt as though all IAFF members were being dragged into this "anti-volly" statement. I agree with our local policy because of the fact that we have to live in the city that we serve. If we did not have residency, there would have been more debate and discussion and we very well may not have agreed to the ban on working for other departments. For us it seemed a small and logical stipulation. You could toss second hand smoke into the fray as well for the cause of heart and lung ailments. We also do not ban smoking for our members either, another cause for debate in our heart lung bill, but we were able to get a very good benefit for our members by agreeing to not work/volunteer for other departments. For what it's worth, my opinion is this : If you are a career firefighter for a City, and you live in a community that is served with a volunteer job, it is your duty to volunteer and offer the skills you have to not only your fellow volunteers but also to the community. That is honestly why the majority of us have chosen this as a career, to provide a life saving skill to our communities and families. It is important to remember that the union first and foremost is there for us, the paying members. We pay them to watch out for us, and to provide strength with numbers. That is not selfish.

[E229Lt]

Just for a touch of perspective:

Within the past five years a certain area in Westchester NY which has paid firefighters (members of the IAFF) was in the middle of a nasty collective barganing fight. For a very short period there was a slowdown by the union. During that time, a standing mutual aid agreement was used and several volunteers from surrounding areas responded into the district who were off duty IAFF/ L-94 and L-854 members. This my friends is the very definition of a SCAB.

Others throw that word around. I don't! When you cross a picketline of any sort to work in place of the people walking that line, You are a SCAB. To do it to members of your own union is beyond being a SCAB. Some may think this is a dead horse, I don't, I think it's about time!

[firenresq77]

Originally posted by E229Lt
Just for a touch of perspective:

Within the past five years a certain area in Westchester NY which has paid firefighters (members of the IAFF) was in the middle of a nasty collective barganing fight. For a very short period there was a slowdown by the union. During that time, a standing mutual aid agreement was used and several volunteers from surrounding areas responded into the district who were off duty IAFF/ L-94 and L-854 members. This my friends is the very definition of a SCAB.

Others throw that word around. I don't! When you cross a picketline of any sort to work in place of the people walking that line, You are a SCAB. To do it to members of your own union is beyond being a SCAB. Some may think this is a dead horse, I don't, I think it's about time!

Sorry, Loo, but I look at SCABS differently. I see a SCAB as someone who sees that they are having a stoppage/slow down and goes in there with the premise of taking the money away from those on the stoppage/slow down. They were acting under a MUTUAL AID agreement. Do paid guys not respond to Mutual Aid requests to a Combo department who has called in the Vollies already?? That is no different.

It IS a touchy situation when the department you are going to is the one you are employed at FT, but they were acting as members of their other department........ I do see your frustration, but it's just a difference in opinion.

[E229Lt]

Do paid guys not respond to Mutual Aid requests to a Combo department who has called in the Vollies already??

In the 20 years I wore two hats I NEVER crossed into the town to our south(an Iaff combo). If I was home I did not respond to the mutual aid. If I was in quarters I stated I could not respond. AND I NEVER signed in for credit.

My volunteer days have ended. But in the days I did both I tried my best to look out for the good of my community and, at the same time my union. I never found it that hard, until...

[blancety]

Some may think this is a dead horse, I don't, I think it's about time!

Loo,

The dead horse I was refering to was the debate of this topic on the forums. I, you and everyone else will never come to a mutually satisfactory agreement or understanding about this issue.

You example is another excellent example of how this "non-issue" can affect so called non-effected departments.

Dave

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Artie...would you care to share the reason why you yuo no longer volunteer in your community? (I know the reason, as you told me... it may open up a few eys and minds....)

[E229Lt]

Artie...would you care to share the reason why you yuo no longer volunteer in your community? (I know the reason, as you told me... it may open up a few eys and minds....)

Sure Gonzo, and Thanks:

After 9-11 I submitted a request for a leave of absense so I could attend to the work at hand and save the rest of the time for my family. After only 6 months I attempted to become active again in the vollies. At that time I was told I was only entitled to 3 months of leave and was no longer "in good standing" due to my extended time away.

You figure out my response.

By the way, this does not cloud my view of the issue as I had long believed we should NEVER walk on our union brothers soil for free.

[radioguy]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
The volunteer fire service should address their own problems, ie, arson by volunteer members, better recruitment practices (psych exams, etc, alcohol in the firehouses, lack of training, the Good old boy network of electing officers by popularity rather than by qualifications rther than go after the IAFF for enforcing their own bylaws....

Translation: I cannot defned the facts of the situation or the actions of my union when presented with the facts, so I will just sling mud in an attempt to cloud the issue.


We are not going after the IAFF for enforcing the bylaw, but for having it.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

We are not going after the IAFF for enforcing the bylaw, but for having it.

Reminds me of a story...the Lone Ranger and Tonto were riding through a mountain pass when the Lone Ranger looked up and said "Tonto..we are surrounded by Indians"...Tonto turned to the Lone Ranger and said "what do you mean we....Keemo-sabe!

Who appointed you the grand poobah of the volunteer fire service? Certainly not any of the volunteers I know, for they use their heads and think rationally!



If you want to change IAFF bylaws... then join an IAFF affilitated department... otherwise,

[size=huge]MYOB![/size]

[blancety]

Originally posted by radioguy
We are not going after the IAFF for enforcing the bylaw, but for having it.

If you are not a IAFF Firefighter that volunteers on the side, this bylaw should not be your concern. Period end of story.


Does the volunteer fire service really rely that much on career firefighters in their off time?

[radioguy]

Originally posted by E229Lt


Sure Gonzo, and Thanks:

After 9-11 I submitted a request for a leave of absense so I could attend to the work at hand and save the rest of the time for my family. After only 6 months I attempted to become active again in the vollies. At that time I was told I was only entitled to 3 months of leave and was no longer "in good standing" due to my extended time away.

You figure out my response.

By the way, this does not cloud my view of the issue as I had long believed we should NEVER walk on our union brothers soil for free.

That sucks, and it is hard to belive a department would be that asanine in such a situation. What was the reason? Was it a legal requirment for training (IE having been to so many events in a time period?) or something that was written into the bylaws? What was required to be back in "good standing?" In my department a leave of absence is as long as you wish, but when you come back if your training requirments are out of date you will not be in good standing untill they are brought back up, either by submitting the paperwork for training done while you were away or getting the required hours. Was your situation something similar?

So even before, you would rather leave you union "brothers" shorthanded on a fire scene than help them? You would rather the union be strong than the public get all the help it deserves?

I really have a hard time understanding the mentality, I wish I could. Maybe it's because my only point to doing what I do is to help, hell I lose money all the time to do it in missed time at work. I buy my own gear when need be. The idea of leaving a crew calling for mutual aid potentially shorthanded just because it may make a group I belong to a bit stronger or allow me to make a little more money is just an inconceivable concept for me. Hell I couldn't fathom a work stoppage or slowdown that would put the citizens of my district in risk either, its a forgien concept. And I damm sure would step in if it happened somewhere else. To leave the citizens who depend on you hanging and dependant on mutual aid to me is a huge violation of the trust placed in us. If my employees get ****ed at me and intentionally slow down thier working to try to prove a point like a 5 year old child, they would get one warning, then its off to the unemployment office.

I can thing of only one time in my county that a group has refused to work, and that was a group of POC first responders for a city. They refused because the city council, in a wave of idiocy, deceided the liabilty/malpractice insurance they paid to cover them was too expensive and cancelled it. They asked the neighboring districts to cover them and we did for 4 days until the council realized how stupid it was and renewed the policy. But it would take something as severe as being asked to work without malpractice insurance for us to walk, and even then it was those who walked who arranged for coverage so as to not leave thier citizens hanging.

We may do the same things and fight the same monster, but we definitly come from different worlds and mentalities.

[radioguy]

Originally posted by hfd66truck


If you are not a IAFF Firefighter that volunteers on the side, this bylaw should not be your concern. Period end of story.


Does the volunteer fire service really rely that much on career firefighters in their off time?

Sure it is my concern, because it may come to affect my department one day. It may affect me, and mean the truck I respond on has an empty seat. The rest of your bylaws I could care less about, they don't affect me or have the potential too. This one does.


Rely that much? Depends on how you look at it. Look back and see how many career guys post here complaining about budget cuts that cut one man from an engine or shift. Well in many cases that is the equivelant of what would happen to us. But as I posted earlier, the union mentality is its awful when its done to them and a danger to them and the public, but for them to do the same to a volunteer department for thier own gain is somehow perfectly ok.

Those 3 or 4 guys a department may lose may mean the differance bewteen 3 and 4 trucks rolling, or halfway or fully manned trucks.

[radioguy]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo


Reminds me of a story...the Lone Ranger and Tonto were riding through a mountain pass when the Lone Ranger looked up and said "Tonto..we are surrounded by Indians"...Tonto turned to the Lone Ranger and said "what do you mean we....Keemo-sabe!

Who appointed you the grand poobah of the volunteer fire service? Certainly not any of the volunteers I know, for they use their heads and think rationally!



If you want to change IAFF bylaws... then join an IAFF affilitated department... otherwise,

[size=huge]MYOB![/size]

Change can be external as well, if you put enough pressure on an organization through bad press and other means.

For the record, the bylaw is regarded as asanine by pretty much everyone around here. The local IAFF bunch, as near as I can tell, has never attempted to enforce it.

Should such actions begin here, and affect local departments, I can assure you I, and many like me, will be a thorn in the IAFF locals side and ensure any positive publicity they get is well outwieghed by the negative. Bad press, PR and reputation does not help much when contract time rolls around.

[BCmdepas3280]

Originally posted by radioguy


That sucks, and it is hard to belive a department would be that asanine in such a situation. What was the reason? Was it a legal requirment for training (IE having been to so many events in a time period?) or something that was written into the bylaws? What was required to be back in "good standing?" In my department a leave of absence is as long as you wish, but when you come back if your training requirments are out of date you will not be in good standing untill they are brought back up, either by submitting the paperwork for training done while you were away or getting the required hours. Was your situation something similar?

Imagine that a volunteer department with bylaws.

[radioguy]

Originally posted by Ltmdepas3280


Imagine that a volunteer department with bylaws.

Once again we roll back to reading comprehension class, as I already pointed out once that I have yet to see or hear of a set of VFD bylaws that prohibit a member from doing whatever they wish and working however they wish when not on department business.

I have yet to see a set of VFD bylaws created intentionaly to remove manpower from another department.

Go back a few pages and read some more.

[firenresq77]

Originally posted by E229Lt


In the 20 years I wore two hats I NEVER crossed into the town to our south(an Iaff combo). If I was home I did not respond to the mutual aid. If I was in quarters I stated I could not respond. AND I NEVER signed in for credit.

My volunteer days have ended. But in the days I did both I tried my best to look out for the good of my community and, at the same time my union. I never found it that hard, until...

Loo, I'm not trying to start an argument. In fact, I would like this discussion to end as much as everyone else. I just wanted to clarify the question I asked. Would your paid department refuse to respond to a mutual aid request by a neighboring combo department who also called out their volunteers?