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  1. #1
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    Default FDNy VS the Vollies.

    Ok, so what is going on with the UFA going against the rights of the FDNY to volunteer and teach the vollies what they know,and to serve the community inwhich they live in.......??
    Last edited by JAFO2004; 04-03-2004 at 03:14 PM.

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    Ok, so what is going on with the UFA going against the rights of the FDNY to volunteer and teach the vollies what they know,and to serve the community inwhich they live in.......??
    JAFO2004

    I'll assume you are a volunteer and if so, have bylaws you must follow. So do the members of the IAFF. Any other rambling questions?

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    Default What?

    What exactly was the question or the point trying to be made here? I am a member of the FDNY and a Vollie. We have rules and regs in both Depts.

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    Article XVI

    (new) Section 3

    Any UFA member found working a secondary job as a paid-on-call firefighter for a non-profit corporation, or a private fire protection or emergency medical services to a city, county, municipality, or fire protection district as a volunteer, reserve, part-time, part paid, firefighter, where such employment jeopardizes an IAFF affiliate, may be declared "a member not in good standing".


    A member not in good standing shall not be eligible for UFA Group Insurances and other group rates to members of the UFA. In addition, their names shall be published in official union notification, no less than once a year.
    (new) Section 4

    No member shall be found in violation of Section 3 above except upon written charges setting forth the alleged facts of the violation

    The charges must be delivered to the member charged and the Recording Secretary of the UFA in advance of the first general meeting of the membership at which the charges are to be read.


    A special committee, consisting of one Delegate from each borough selected by the UFA President shall be convened, and undertake a full investigation in order to make a recommendation at said first general meeting at which the charges are to be read.


    Said special committee shall be appointed by the President within 10 days of the receipt of charges by the Recording Secretary and shall complete its investigation no later than 30 days after having been formed. The charges shall be initially considered at the first general membership meeting held after the committee completes its investigation.



    Both the member bringing the charges and the member charged shall have an opportunity to present an oral statement and any written material relevant to the issue at each general membership meeting where the charges are read.


    No member may be found in violation of Section 3 of this article except upon an affirmative vote of 2/3 of those present and voting at two consecutive general membership meetings where the charges must be read.
    Proposed by FF Dean Stephan, Ladder 154
    Back To Top


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Default News to me

    This is news to me! It would be a shame that the UFA would take this posistion. This is the reason why I dont let the job (FDNY) know that I am also a vollie. If I dont volunteer, who will? Such B.S.

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    Default

    Where is the rule that says that you can't be a plumber, carpenter, electrician, painter, etc on your days off, Those are union jobs. If you work the trades on your days off aren't you taking union jobs?

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    Default Prposed

    I just did a little research. These are proposed constitution amendments to the UFA. It must be voted on, and hopefully shot down.

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    Default

    It isn't my fight but doesn't the clause where such employment jeopardizes an IAFF affiliate pretty much protect members of all vollie departments? If there's no IAFF affiliate in the town, then there's really nobody to jeopradize.

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    It's funny that this topic came up. I was just reading an article about the "two hatter" issue in Ontario. I will not take sides here but sounds similar to what you gentlemen are discussing. I believe there are now government officials and all kinds of union people involved in the Ontario debate. Basically the union 's don't want members working two places/jobs, one full-time, one volunteer. Vollie dept's want these people in for experience and to fill spots. Again I am not siding with anyone here. Just might be something for you to look up and investigate for those interested.

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    The horse is dead gentlemen...

    the same horse was killed in Maryland...

    and the same one killed in Hartford...

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    Unhappy

    ROUND 3,652,125 DING DING DING
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    Originally posted by E229Lt


    JAFO2004

    I'll assume you are a volunteer and if so, have bylaws you must follow. So do the members of the IAFF. Any other rambling questions?
    You actually think you make a valid analogy?

    Show me one volunteer department that regulates what members do on thier own time. Or own that prohibits being a career firefighter as well? Show me one that makes rules that purpousley hurt other districts simply for thier own financial gain?


    I find it funny that the same bunch who rant and complain about politicians cutting manning for thier own personal or political gain are more than willing to follow, support, and defend an organization that does virtually the same thing, it hurts manning of volunteer departments by prohibiting those who would otherwise serve from doing so, for thier own financial and political gain.

    The same folks who rave about how big a hurt it is to a city when engines go from 5 to 4 man crews have no problem prohibiting that firefighter who would be the 5th on a volunteer engine from responding when they can.

    I can't understand that logic, the politicians are evil when they do it to you but it's somehow just fine and dandy when your union does it to a volunteer company, so long as the union stands to gain a little money and power from it.
    Last edited by radioguy; 04-03-2004 at 10:50 PM.

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    Originally posted by EFD840
    It isn't my fight but doesn't the clause where such employment jeopardizes an IAFF affiliate pretty much protect members of all vollie departments? If there's no IAFF affiliate in the town, then there's really nobody to jeopradize.
    Depends on your view, some hardcore union members see every volunteer house, combo station, and paid on call firefighter as one that could employ union members or a new union member, no matter how asanine and out of touch with reality the concept.

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    Originally posted by hfd66truck
    The horse is dead gentlemen...

    the same horse was killed in Maryland...

    and the same one killed in Hartford...
    I agree with my esteemed colleague from Harwich.

    The horse has been dead for quite some time.

    The hide has been beaten away, the flesh torn from the bones, and the bones have now been pulverized...

    Let us deal with the real challenges that we face.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    If it were dead then the IAFF wouldn't keep bringing it up.
    The department I work for part time has lost several good firefighters due to those same rules.

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    If it were dead then the IAFF wouldn't keep bringing it up.
    The department I work for part time has lost several good firefighters due to those same rules.
    I was refering to our discussion here. It gonna go down the same road, and we'll all end up at the same place.

    Some think that the IAFF shouldn't be able to tell you what to do when your are off duty. (note this is UFA this time).

    Others think that they joined the Union they agreed to abide by its Constitution and Bylaws, so though they may personally disagree, they follow the rules.

    And yet others think that as long as its in an area that has no career firefighters, they can continue to do so.

    And yet still others think that they should not be paying for potential injuries to "their" firefighters that were incurred while said firefighter volunteered somewhere else.


    I am sure there might be some abstract opinions I missed.

    Agree to disagree gentlemen.......before all the same BS and insults start flying.


    Dave
    Last edited by hfd66truck; 04-04-2004 at 09:39 AM.

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    Question

    You actually think you make a valid analogy?

    Show me one volunteer department that regulates what members do on thier own time. Or own that prohibits being a career firefighter as well? Show me one that makes rules that purpousley hurt other districts simply for thier own financial gain?
    radioguy,

    I don't know about the vollys out by you but I know of plenty of Vol FDs around Long Island and Upstate that regulate where you can live to be a member...also most have rules stating you can not be a member of another vol dept. Also they have rules on how many runs you MUST show up to and how many fundraisers you MUST show up to.

    All of the above regulate what you can do in your own free time. Are you also against volly FDs that prevent members from belonging to more than one company?

    FTM-PTB

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    Show me one volunteer department that regulates what members do on thier own time. Or own that prohibits being a career firefighter as well? Show me one that makes rules that purpousley hurt other districts simply for thier own financial gain?
    It may not be what you're looking for, but the State of NY will not allow you, a trained firefighter, to serve more than one department. Why is that? So assuming all volunteer deparments remain within the law, I would say every one of them "regulates what members do on thier own time."




    New York State Consolidated Laws

    Ch 64. S. 10-1006. 10. A person shall not be eligible to volunteer membership in more than one fire company at one time.

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    Addison,
    If it wasnt for all the SCABS(not volunteers) that find it necessary to WORK (not volunteer)on departments that could and should hire fulltime firefighters here in Northern Illinois, there would be MORE fulltime positions available for people entering the fire service here. But due to GREEDINESS and lack of anything better to do on their time off, there are plenty of PAID firefighters that are taking jobs away from people that could use them. I can roll off the names of the towns that utilize career people who work for less then what they make at there fulltime gigs. I am sure you would be the first one screaming if Addison decided to hire off duty paid people to fill in your ranks. Just the other day our Mayor threatend one of our E- board members with "We could go all part-time and really save" ..Nice. And I dont care what you say. If you WORK (not volunteer) on another department on your days off you are a SCAB. This is not directed at people that are volunteer, POC or part-time and not a career person. It is directed at those selfish "Brothers" that would complain the loudest if tha same thing happend to them.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    on a lighter note ..........Dave nice avatar !! is that your lid ?
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    YUP...thanks for noticing

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    Originally posted by FFFRED


    radioguy,

    I don't know about the vollys out by you but I know of plenty of Vol FDs around Long Island and Upstate that regulate where you can live to be a member...also most have rules stating you can not be a member of another vol dept. Also they have rules on how many runs you MUST show up to and how many fundraisers you MUST show up to.

    All of the above regulate what you can do in your own free time. Are you also against volly FDs that prevent members from belonging to more than one company?

    FTM-PTB
    Actually, yes I am against those who would have the regulation requiring membership in only one department, as long as you can be a productive member thats fine. Regulations on how many calls and events you must answer I have no problem with, same goes for regulations that go for mandatory training.

    Residincy requirments I am torn on, we have them on my department. I can see the need, what use is a volunteer who lives 25 miles outside the district, by the time they respond 99% of incidents are well handled. It would be a waste of the taxpayers $$ to train and equip someone who cannot respond in a timely manner. We have however allowed some members who live outside our district but work in it and can leave work to join, as they are able to be productive members while they are in town, usually at the same time when most of our members are outside the district at thier jobs.

    All those regs you stated, however, relate to your actions with that FD. None regulate what you do outside it other than residency. None state how you can earn a living. None state that you cannot do something to help your community. None state that you cannot use the training and certifications you recive from training with the department to secure a job elsewhere. They cover only your actions while actually doing department functions.

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    Over the last 25 years, I have trained more than one PG county Vollie, only to see them go to FDNY.............. I only wish them the best.......... you know who you are................. best to you my brothers

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    I was going to hold my tongue on this issue this time but since MikeyLikesIt brought the SCAB word into this again I decided to comment.

    It always make me shake my head at the hypocrisy of calling someone who works as a volly or poc or part-time paid for another department a scab, yet if that same good Union Brother lays tile or carpet, does construction work, paints, drywalls, installs wood floors, works as an electrician, or plumber, drives truck or any number of other Union jobs he is not a scab becaus eit doesn't directly affect us as firefighters. Wouldn't a true Union Brother not do any of those jobs either? Of course he wouldn't because if he did he would be a SCAB now wouldn't he? And don't give me the BS line that you do jobs to small for a Union contractor because the same argument can be made for places like where I volly. This town is so small we couldn't afford one paid FF let alone a whole FD of them.

    Having said all that, yes I am a 2 hatter, I work for a medium sized city FD about an hour and a half from where I live, and volly where I live. When and if my volly FD gets career people if I am still working as a career FF I will resign and walk away.

    My viewpoint has always been this, as long as it isn't against the law, what I do on my off time is neither my FD or my Union's business.

    FyredUp

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    where such employment jeopardizes an IAFF affiliate

    I think that statement pretty much covers the subject at hand. It seems most of the departments surrounding NYC with the exception of Yonkers and Westchester County are pretty much all Volunteer. So it's kind of like a Non-Issue. It seems the UFA is just coming in line with the rules of the International itself. Ever since Resolution 43 reared its ugly head, alot of locals are updating their by-laws to coincide. Big Deal, the IAFF's rules carry little weight when it comes to your employment with the exception of Canada. And if your FIREFIGHTER Brothers give you grief because of your level of participation in the Union, than they are not truly Brothers. Brotherhood is not about a union.


    If you want to Volunteer somewhere than don't join the union. It's pretty simple.

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