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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default Interface Engines

    Is anybody out there running interface engines? IE BLM Model 14/15, Pierce Hawk, or something similar?

    If so, what are your thougts?

    Do they funtion well in both worlds, or are they a comprimise in both?
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  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  3. #3
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default Out West...

    The model 14 or 15 is by far superior for structural
    firefighting, responding to traffic collisons (T/C)
    and wildland and wildland interface. The short wheel
    base makes them super manuverable and the hydrostatic
    pumps are very reliable.

    Here are your links-
    http://www.west-mark.com/products.cfm

    CDF's engines- (click on lower right)
    http://www.fire.ca.gov/php/fire_er_fireengines.php
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 04-04-2004 at 10:13 AM.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Default

    We're pushing to purchase one in the next year. They're relatively unheard of here in the Midwest, but we just can't get past the functionality of one and how well it will slot into the department. The ultimate decision should come this next week from our board...

    A lot of departments around here are getting big on F-550 mini pumpers, but to me, most are overloaded and very limited in their ability. If we're allowed to get ours, it will act as a first out unit for everything but structure fires, allow for brush fire access, and act as a reserve engine when one of our front line units goes down. With a 500 gallon tank and 1000 gpm pump one isn't really sacrificing much. I could go on and on, but it could get long.

    We're big on the idea of a rear-mount PTO pump, something similar to Rosenbauer's demo. While we'll probably go with a different manufacturer, there's some neat ideas on their unit.

    FTI page

    Rosenbauer

    Anyone in the Midwest run one of these things?

    --Joel

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default

    I agree with you fellas that the versitility of these engines is awsome. We are a rural MT voly that is seeing more of all kinds of fire as the community grows, but we are definatly going to be seeing a much more pornouced interface issue over the next decade. We do have significant interface issues now as it is. We always have a lot off wildfires, that can be counted on each and every year.

    Here is our situation this far.

    We have 9 brush trucks, 60's vintage to 2001, scattered over our 730 square miles, but most of those are super simple 250 gallon State lands loaners or home builts. They are ok at pumping and rolling prairie fires, sage brush fires are a challenge, and in the interface, even with something like Barrcaid they are marginal at best at protecting structurs.

    We have 2 older (85 and 83) International type 3s. One is a former BLM heavy, CAFS, pump and roll, 800 gallons, nice for structure protection, only seats 2 though. The other is a 500 GPM, 500 gallon tank, only seats 2, can hand small structure fires, but no pump and roll, at least not useable. It is ok for structure protecion if you have a water supply handly, IE a swimming pool or something.

    Our only real pumper, ISO rated, is a 85 Peirce Class a, 1000 gpm, 1000 gallon engine. It has no ability what so ever in comabating wildfire/interface fire, our most prolific call by far. It is mostly around for ISO rating purposes. We have managed a class 8 so far, and we dont expect to improve until we have some hydrants, of which there are none in our district at this time, none planned to my knowledge.

    I would like to replace that Pierce with an interface style engine, similar to a Type 14, only with around 800 gallon poly tank and that 1000 GPM pump we need to maintain our ISO rating.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

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  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default

    Now you have me thinking.

    What are the prices on some of these engines?

    How bout that Rosenbaur Timberwolf? That is an awsome interface egine... How much?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Default

    I'd be willing to bet in the $200,000 range. I'd imagine that one could go cheaper if necessary, costlier as well. I know we rationalized the cost over a mini-pumper by figuring in life cycles. Normally an F-550 based unit gets 10 years in our department, and something heavier sees 15. Our last pair of "light" rescues on 4wd F-550s (no water or pump, think along the lines of ladder tender) ran over $150,000. In the end, a W-UI type unit could offer a lot more versatility, at a similar cost breakdown over the years of use. And to be honest, I'm not conviced Ford's weight ratings on their F-550 chassis aren't optimistic. Both of our units scale out well under allowed weight limits, but the rear suspension sagged horribly. Ford said that the condition was "acceptable." Our apparatus builder knew better and paid for the cost of modifications to the rear suspension to take care of the problem...

    Besides, is it just me, but doesn't the new IH chassis just look like it should be a fire truck? Toss in the the fact that there's a lot of room in the IH four-door cab, and our apparatus committee was sold.

    --Joel

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    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Default

    THat's what I wanted when we got our 2003 F-550 Mini-Pumper, but the powers that be had their minds made up........

    Our F-550 is already at 18,000+ pounds, and it doesn't have a whole lot on it. Just 300 gallons water, pump, 300' 5", 450' 2.5", 400' 1.75", and then 4 SCBA, winch, EMS stuff, and some tools. Not a whole lot for the weight. The rep we bought it from told me the other day that it wouldn't have been much more to get a Medium Duty Chassis. I asked about the $30-40,000 difference in chassis and he said you pay more for the chassis, but less for other areas, and we paid $140,000 for our mini-pumper.

    HInd sight is 20/20......... Go with the Interface instead of a mini.......

  9. #9
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Here is the ticket...

    Forget that Timberwolf, it isnt even RED.
    Go with the Westmark. Here is the link with picture-

    http://www.west-mark.com/prod_interface.cfm

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Default

    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES

    How bout that Rosenbaur Timberwolf? That is an awsome interface egine... How much?
    I have to agree. I love the booster reel in the step.

    We are going through a growth spurt, and after our new squirt and tender arrive this fall, we need to start looking for an interface rig within the next two years. I sure like the idea of one of these better than a basic F-550 chassis, but all the local depts seem transfixed in that direction.

    It seems that once you get a 550 stretched out to crew cab with a big enough box/pump, you lose the clearance and maneuverability of the small truck anyway, so you might as well go to one of these. Everyone seems to think the small ones are quicker as well, but when loaded up they fight just as hard to climb our hills.

    Now how about equipping one of these with CAF? Am I asking too much?
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

  11. #11
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    TIMBERWOLF...now your talk'n a real truck. We just quoted one about two months ago. 2x4 International chassis, 750 gallon tank, dual agent tanks, 1,000 GPM Rosenbauer pump, bumper turent, 5Kw generator and several other options- $207,000. We are planning on a 2-wheel drive, we can buy another 1-ton pick-up and equip it for what it costs to add 4-wheel drive plus we have had many problems in the past with 2.5 ton trucks and 4-wheel drive.

    If you have never seen the Rosenbauer pump operate, you should. 400-500 PSI off of the bumper turnet during pump-n-roll...this rig is a true fire killer. Central States also puts this pump in other trucks and often they are more budget friendly than the Timberwolf. I know that there are a couple of these trucks in far southwest ND if you wanted to look at one.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default

    Originally posted by toddman
    TIMBERWOLF...now your talk'n a real truck. We just quoted one about two months ago. 2x4 International chassis, 750 gallon tank, dual agent tanks, 1,000 GPM Rosenbauer pump, bumper turent, 5Kw generator and several other options- $207,000. We are planning on a 2-wheel drive, we can buy another 1-ton pick-up and equip it for what it costs to add 4-wheel drive plus we have had many problems in the past with 2.5 ton trucks and 4-wheel drive.

    If you have never seen the Rosenbauer pump operate, you should. 400-500 PSI off of the bumper turnet during pump-n-roll...this rig is a true fire killer. Central States also puts this pump in other trucks and often they are more budget friendly than the Timberwolf. I know that there are a couple of these trucks in far southwest ND if you wanted to look at one.
    Thanks for the input guys, I agree, I do like that Timberwolf. And CALFFBOU, I am sure getting it painted red is a relatively inexpensive option.

    Nothing wrong with the unit you pointed out, but I like the pump on the Timberwolf, that is a new one on me. And I thought CAFS was cool!

    Have you been around one in person Todd? What I am currious ambout is the pump and roll capability. How does it handle it? Off roading when you have to rev up to climb a hill, move out of the fires way, etc... What happens to the pump when the engine RPM changes. Is it controled some how, or does the pump fluxuate with the egine RPM?

    I see that most other Interface engines use an auxilary pump to avoid this. They leave the big pump quiet while pumping and rolling, useing a basic mini me pump to put out the 20-60 GPM for pump and roll.

    I am sure these guys would want to go with the 4X4. I would guess that would make it around 230,000 to 250,000 for the unit so equiped with some options, IE 750 gallon tank.

    I agree, those Navistar Internationals are incredibly cool, they make very sharp looking fire trucks.

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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  13. #13
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    We just got a KME U/I truck - it's not even in service yet. We added a hose reel in the rear, and if we add some more hose and replace the 16' ladder with a 20', it would be a type 2. It looks just like the 14/15. Ours is 4wd, pump & roll with a pony engine, and foam but no CAFS.

    The chief loves it, the rest of us are waiting to see how it works out - we think it will be too big to get in to many of our tree fires and on the 2 tracks where the trees grow close. This truck is not wide, but it is tall - over 11 foot.

    Our 4dr Ford 550 with CAFS has worked well, and everyone except the Chief wanted another one of them. One day he informed us he had bought this truck. It's nice, I'm waiting to see if it will work for us.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    I have heard mixed reviews of the F550s.

    The MT DNRC is makeing them with 500 gallon poly tanks and reports excellent performance.

    BLM made some with 300 gallon tanks and crew cabs, they have fallen apart often.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  15. #15
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    Boise Mobile Equipment in Idaho has been building the competition for the CDF Model 14, the Model 62 used by the USFS, Pierce is making a similar engine.

    http://www.bmefire.com/prod02.htm

    http://www.piercemfg.com/apparatus/Hawk_USFS_62.cfm

    http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng7/engine2.jpg

    http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng7/engine1.jpg

    http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng7/engine3.jpg

    I've worked on several versions of the Model 62 and all are quite capable and handy engines. BME offers larger pumps than the standard 500 GPM. Several years ago the price was under $200,000 but that was for the USFS which buy in bulk (13 that year).

    CAFS is a personal choice but the Foam Pro is about 20% the price, easier to use, works on all the discharges and still makes great foam, the Model 62 is available with dual foam tanks allowing a combination of Class A and Class B Foam to be carried. (I believe it is 2x 20 gallon).

    Which ever brand you go with the Interface pumper is a very useful piece of equipment that gives up only a little in compromise (basically tool space and hose load and only because you are trying to do 2 jobs with it).

    As far as 4x4 I don't know that it will be worth it, a 4x4 Type 6 will blow the doors off a Type 3 in off road ability and you really raise the center of gravity, I found the 4x2 Model 62's to be quite capable off road and never wanted to take it someplace the 2wd couldn't get it.
    Last edited by NonSurfinCaFF; 04-07-2004 at 12:44 AM.

  16. #16
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    Ummmm.....

    We might be a bit slow down here in Kiwi land BUTTTTT.....

    If you are going to start the spec for an INTERFACE truck, it had better bloody well have seating for at least FOUR crew.

    And you had better get used to getting on the truck with TWO sets of gear, one for bush fires and a set of PPE if it gets heavy.

    If the rig is 4x4 it is a "bush basher" and set it up to work that style of operation. A 4x4 is sod all use parked outside the residential structure fire fighting the kitchen fire when the call comes for the bush fire up the hill.

    As is the 4x2 city cruiser truck responding to the fire up the hill when the 4x4 is at the above address.

    The nut was cracked here by the following comment from npfd801

    but we just can't get past the functionality of one and how well it will slot into the department.
    "ONE" and how well "IT", notice that, one interface unit, not ALL Urban or All Bush rigs.

    We cannot afford to run three types of truck you might say, either do we. My station has ONE truck, and it can be called an interface truck for the area we cover, up to setting up a portable pump off the back and running Helicopter monsoon bucket filling, while the truck sods off and places other members with Wajax pumps and back packs of hose for ground fire suppression, and then clears to the next point to provide response work. Next call might be strutural or MVA.

    We have a generator and light system that can be loaded onto spare vehicles for night jobs like mva's or bush fires etc, along with spare gear for bush work.

    Remember it is a damn site more important to get a crew of 4 on board and out the door for an MVA or structural fire call than it is to leave for a bush fire.

    All at the same time as carrying MVA rescue gear, ladders, tools for your truck work, and 525 gallons of water.

    Some bright salesman somewhere once recognised he could sell a hell of a lot more trucks if he combined two of them.

    He did that and you have had the word QUINT jammed down your throat ever since. Face it, it is a compromise truck.

    So is an Interface Truck.

    But so is our job at the best of incidents. Live with the fact, and load up to do your work, then get home safely.
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  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    All good points Kiwi. Thanks for the insight.

    Hey, could you post some pics/stats/details on your interface engine? That would be cool. Also, what chassis do you guys use overthere? Unimog? Something else?

    Please dont say Toyota...

    How much area do you cover with that one interface engine? It is hard to be in more then one place at once, I have tried.

    I agree that an interface pumper might end up a comprimise. But for use that IMO is better then our Class A pumper that is only good for on road use (and we dont have a lot of roads!) and is mostly limited by the available water supply.

    An interface engine for us could maybe stop that wildfire from threatening a structure instead of stageing in the front yard waiting for the fire to run into you and the structure.

    All our Class A pumper realy is-is a 1000 GPM pump on wheels with some hose on top and a water tank. A interface engine is all that, plus many more usefull things, at least for us.
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  18. #18
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    Take a look at http://www.fire.org.nz/photo/vehicles/vehicles.htm Any of the first four trucks can be an "Inteface" truck.

    We use a truck similar to the Mitsubishi pictured. a 6x2 drive arrangement.

    4x4 units are stationed at nearby stations if needed.

    Now as most bush fires start somewhere in summer time when the ground is hard, the truck will get close enough to sort it, or we go on foot in teams with gear.

    Most reasonable scale fires where a 4x4 would be the only option to get near will result in a helicopter and monsoon bucket being called anyway.
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  19. #19
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    The pump on the Timberwolf monitors the engine RPM and an electric clutch type system turns the pump on/off. Select your trans gear and go...80 GPM@490PSI @1600 RPM with class A foam. Contact Tag Johnson at General Safety Equipment 651-462-1000 and he can tell you more than I can.

  20. #20
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    our dept will always stick with a brush truck, a heavy duty pick up, not an "off-road" semi. we have had the same brush truck for 25+ years and no major break downs, the worst thing so far was having to replace original springs this winter. yes this winter, the original springs last 25+ years. its got two front discharges, and 200 ft booster real. you will never see our dept using a pumper to fight an brush fire, unless we can reach it from the road. our new pumper came in at a little over 210,000. It has a 1000 gpm pump, 1250 poly tank, 2- 2 3/4" preconnects and a 3 inch preconnect. plus 12 ft. ground ladder, 10ft folding attic ladder, and a 24ft extension ladder.
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