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  1. #21
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610
    From what I know and have seen, stainless steel is the predominant and strongest fastener.
    You are correct about stainless being the predominant fastener, but plain steel is much stronger (can't get Grade 8 stainless etc.,) Aluminum fasteners would be ideal from a corrosion standpoint (provided they are the same alloy as the sheet metal), except that aluminum does not thread well. Aluminum rivets are ideal but are not easy to work on, Peterbuilt and Kenworth high end truck bodies as well as some boats are made of aluminum with aluminum rivets. Stainless is much higher on the galvanic scale, but most of those alloys are relatively inactive hence are "safer" than most other metals. One metal to be avoided like the plauge on aluminum is any copper alloy. Copper is very high on the galvanic scale and very "active."
    Marion claims to use some sort of bushing I believe to avoid this issue. Is this true? Do any other manufacturers do this?
    You can use nylon fasteners and nylon bushings or any other non conducting material to isolate your dissimular metals. This is frequently done on small ships where the hull is steel and the deck houses are aluminum (to save weight topside). Works so-so, usually enough salt builds up across the isolator to hold enough moisture to begin conduct and corrosion begins (ask any Coast Guardsman who worked on a 110' cutter). Also, nylon bolts are much weaker than any other type of fasteners and not easy to find. This means that when one breaks it frequently gets replaced with stainless or other conducting material. Another option is to use steel fasteners with non conducting washers and sleeves over the bolt, but these tend to split if over tightened and chafe through if left too loose.

    There is a unique steel to aluminum bond which promised to be corrosion free. The idea is that, if you can remove all the gaps between the Al and Fe there would be no place to set up a galvanic cell. Explosive welding bonds steel to aluminum using, well, explosives. Put a plate of steel next to a plate of aluminum, wrap it in C-4 and BOOM! The metals fuses solid and then can be machined into a corrosion proof adaptor. (You can't arc weld aluminum to steel because of the different temperatures required) http://www.highenergymetals.com/

    If you are really interested in learning a lot more you can see if your library can get a book called "Corrosion in Metal Boats." Its where I got started studying this stuff, though let me warn you, do not attempt to read more than 30 minutes before bed time. If you do, you will find yourself asleep in 30 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ffp8106
    No it is not!!! its steel...i have several of them and all are rusty.
    Yes the frame rails are steel, but I'm pretty sure the body's frame (not the truck) which you can't normally see is aluminum. Next time I get to the station I'll double check my stainless Saulsbury.

    Trivia, anyone besides Rescue 101 tell me what brand of heavy truck experimented with aluminum frame rails? (It was a dismal failure)
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  2. #22
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    I believe a logger I know has or had a Pete or KW with an aluminum frame, and is always out looking for more. He swears by them.

    Birken

  3. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1
    Poly - Weight wise it's pretty heavy, looks horrible as a body sheet (even painted) if it is damaged it takes a pro to repair it.

    I have to disagree with you on this one. I have seen a few Darley/PolyBilt trucks and you cant tell the difference as far as appearance goes. They use the same paint on poly that they do on metal bodies. The weight is about the same as aluminum with the strength of stainless. The bodies come with a LIFETIME warranty against corrosion or structural defects. If they are damaged, any body shop that works on Saturn vehicles can repair them. I think that poly has alot of potential.
    I can tell the difference between a poly and metal body, at least on the units I've seen. Let it sit in the sun and heat up a little, and you can watch it expand... A neighboring department has two, and their chief has said it was quite alarming the first few times they saw it happen. The expansion was prevalent enough the tops of the roll up door trim were no longer in a straight line with each other. There's enough slop in the roll-up tracks that the doors will still work fine... Even sitting in the the bays, I can easily see the difference between the poly body and one built of metal.

    Does Saturn actually weld their body panels together? I mean - go to Darley's web site and look at the video showing how they weld the poly panel seams together, I find it hard to believe that on a Saturn they just don't order a new panel and slap 'er on. Here's the link to the videos page:
    Videos

    Just like poly tanks, field repairs can be made, but I don't expect your local Saturn shop will have the tools to do it right.

    I'm not attacking the poly product, but like everything out there, it has its positive attributes, and its negatives as well. Nothing is perfect, or everyone would be using it.
    Last edited by npfd801; 08-15-2006 at 01:06 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    I'm not attacking the poly product, but like everything out there, it has its positive attributes, and its negatives as well. Nothing is perfect, or everyone would be using it.

    You hit the nail on the head. There is no perfect body for fire apparatus. There are too many variables, climate being one of the biggest. Here in the Cleveland area, we go from below freezing with tons of road salt in the winters to very hot and humid in the summer.

    I dont care what manufacturer you buy from, you will have problems. Everyone does. Look at what type of local service you will get 5 or 10 years after making the purchase.
    I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

  5. #25
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    My wife's 98 Saturn SL2 the body panels are held together with plastic rivets. The fender is one piece, the quarterpanel is one piece, etc.
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  6. #26
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    One material I would NOT consider is Galvaneal.Nothing but trouble looking for a place to happen.If you're trading out every 5-10 years it might be OK but if you plan on keeping the rig for awhile avoid it like the plague. T.C.

  7. #27
    Forum Member TCFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    One material I would NOT consider is Galvaneal.Nothing but trouble looking for a place to happen.If you're trading out every 5-10 years it might be OK but if you plan on keeping the rig for awhile avoid it like the plague. T.C.
    Keep going Tim.......why?
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  8. #28
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Well,Galvaneal in it's pure form was a step in the right direction.However anytime you bend it,form it,shear it,bolt it or weld it you defeat the purpose unless you "redip"it afterwards.Now since you will find bodybuilders using one of the above practices you open an avenue for corrosion to start.And it just snowballs from there.In the short term it's OK but since our replacement schedule seems to get stretched to twenty plus years we go with aluminum and poly tanks.I think our last galvaneal truck went to Wisc. somewhere. T.C.

  9. #29
    Forum Member canuck1's Avatar
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    Talking hmmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire304

    Trivia, anyone besides Rescue 101 tell me what brand of heavy truck experimented with aluminum frame rails? (It was a dismal failure)
    Kenneworth - 1968 - K100
    Kenneworth - 1972 - W9
    Freightliner - FLC 120, and FLA Cabover - Early - Mid 80s

  10. #30
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    I think Mack built a few at Hayward, Calif. An "L" in the second position of the old style VINs on Hayward trucks usually indicated an aluminum frame. Examples of F model VINs

    F786 was an F700 with a 300 Maxidyne built in Allentown
    FS786 was the same thing from Hayward with a steel frame
    FL786 was the same thing from Hayward with an aluminum frame.

    I owned FS786LT 22315. It was a '74 F model single drive tractor with a 300 Maxidyne engine, built in Hayward. It had a lightweight package (aluminum doors, roof and other components) but a steel frame.

    Later on I owned F712ST ????. It was an Allentown truck with the 315 engine and tandem drive axles. I don't think Allentown ever built aluminum frames. Most (certainly not all) Allentown trucks were purebreds. Most Hayward trucks were mutts. Mine had Mack power but Rockwell axles.

    If Harvey Eckart reads this, he'll surely come in and correct me.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home.

  11. #31
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    shame on you for not remembering the serial number of the "purebred".

    Some of the best times of my life were spent in the right hand seats of those two tractors!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  12. #32
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    Default Stainless Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1
    Poly - Weight wise it's pretty heavy, looks horrible as a body sheet (even painted) if it is damaged it takes a pro to repair it.

    I have to disagree with you on this one. I have seen a few Darley/PolyBilt trucks and you cant tell the difference as far as appearance goes. They use the same paint on poly that they do on metal bodies. The weight is about the same as aluminum with the strength of stainless. The bodies come with a LIFETIME warranty against corrosion or structural defects. If they are damaged, any body shop that works on Saturn vehicles can repair them. I think that poly has alot of potential.
    I hear Seagrave is using a new grade of Stainless. Not 304, better to work with if repairs are needed, also less dollars?

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