View Poll Results: Who's testimony will lead to the greatest lessons learned?

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  • Condoleezza Rice

    9 47.37%
  • Richard Clarke

    3 15.79%
  • Bush (private session)

    1 5.26%
  • Clinton (private session)

    3 15.79%
  • Other (please specify)

    3 15.79%
  1. #1
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    Default Condi or Clarke?

    Who's testimony carries the weight for you?

  2. #2
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    I, for one, anxiously await the declassification of the 8/6/01 PDB.

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    I voted other .. like to hear more from the V.P. and less from Hog Jaws (Kennedy) and Horse Face with a neck tie (Kerry)

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    I can't trust Richard Clarke. I personally feel he made a big todoo to help out his book. He screamed that he had all of these ideas adn policies that should have been implemented and none were. When he was asked point blank if all of his policy recommendations had been implemented fully on September 11th if they would have done anything to prevent the attacks he said "no."

    Clinton has no credibility with me either. It is hard to figure out what is truth and what is not when he speaks, about anything - just my personal feelings.

    Bush will tell you the same thing Rice will tell you because 1) he gets the same info as and from Rice. 2) Everyone has their own spin on what happened and what led up to it.

    Personally I think the commission is a farce and nothing of any value will come out of it. Both the Clinton and Bush administrations will be given responsibility and the FBI, CIA, DIA, DOD, FAA, NRO, and other government agencies will be faulted for intelligence failures. No mention will be made to the fact that no definitive threat against any specific target was made and that it is impossible for any administration or agency to defend against an unknown threat unless it is done by happenstance. Not to mention that intelligence gathering is a lot of luck and circumstance along with proper interpretation of raw intelligence. Since arabic linguists are in tremendously short supply this is made even more difficult, then you have to break the code that is used in transmissions, and ensure proper deciphering. This was my job in the service and I know how difficult it can be.

    In any case, I don't care if Clinton was still President, Gore, Kerry, or bush were in office, it was going to happen and the weakneses of any system or administration will have been - and more importantly WILL BE - exploited to accomplish their eventual goal. The destruction of the United States and Western Europe.
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    No mention will be made to the fact that no definitive threat against any specific target was made and that it is impossible for any administration or agency to defend against an unknown threat unless it is done by happenstance.
    Bob Kerry disclosed some information from the 8/6/01 PDB, Titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States." In it was a warning: "The FBI indicates patterns of suspicious activity in the United States consistent with preparations for hijacking."
    Hijackings"

    That has to jump out at anyone. This is a difinitive threat, the target may not be specific to a city but please tell me how the FAA was not put on the highest state of alert?

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    That has to jump out at anyone. This is a difinitive threat, the target may not be specific to a city but please tell me how the FAA was not put on the highest state of alert? [/B][/QUOTE]

    A couple things; first, CBS radio news at noon said this info came out back in the '90s sometime, and second, the hijackers did their work with weapons that airport security should have found. So with or without heightened alert, the hijackers should have been stopped.

    I don't automatically dismiss the commission as a waste of time, but I think they are working from a perspective of laying blame on people rather than finding problems in the system. Until they drop their accusatory tone, I think they will be hard pressed to get much cooperation out of anybody.

    Finally I agree that Richard Clarke is probably out for some bucks. He can level all the accusations, point all the fingers, do whatever he wants in a book and never be under any sort of obligation to back it up. Rice, Bush, Clinton, Rumsfeld, & whoever else they call must testify under oath and likely produce proof that what they say is true.
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    A couple things; first, CBS radio news at noon said this info came out back in the '90s sometime,
    Dr Rice stated:
    "But I think it is really quite unfair to suggest that something that was a threat spike in June or July gave you the kind of opportunity to make the changes in air security that could have been (pause) that needed to be made."

    That says June/July, not the 90s. And that pause came four words too late.

    As for Clarke, I think he could have been a major player here but his book and it's timing severely weakens his credibility.
    Last edited by E229Lt; 04-09-2004 at 03:56 PM.

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    Clarke is a mutt, and always has been from the sound of Condi's testimony.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

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  9. #9
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    For the sake of discussion let's assume that there was credible evidence that hijackings were being planned. Would anybody in their wildest of dream's have suspected or thought that passenger airliner's would be used as guided missile's? What would we have done as a nation even if that were to be suspected? Any pro active action would have been severly criticized and attacked by the ACLU as well as other watch dog group's. If there is any doubt to this, just pay attention to the crying that has occured to security measure's installed post attack. What action should have been taken once the aircraft were airborn? Certainly the only way to stop them would be to take them out of the equation, or to put it bluntly .. shoot them down ... Blame is always easy to point after the fact. I am no fan of Clinton, but I for one don't think he would knowingly allow a travesty such as September 11 to occur. I certainly don't think that the Bush administration would either. I don't think any human being with any sense of morality would. ( does that leave clinton out? ) I believe Mr. Clark to be an opportunist, trying to make a buck off of other's tragedy. He was after all released from his job, and in need of a way to feed himself. Dr. Rice has proven herself to be literate, credible and extremely informative, and honest .... in my opinion.... I too look forward to the PDB scheduled to be declassified. Once it has been, hopefully the partisan politics being played on both sides of the aisle can stop and we can make our nation a safer place for all.

  10. #10
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    Clarke has proven himself little more than an opportunist and a narcissistic buffoon. Look at his history:

    1. February 1993; World Trade Center was bombed by terrorists, killing five people and injuring hundreds. Advised by his "terrorist czar" Clarke, Clinton did nothing. Treating this incident as a law enforcement problem, they eventually arrested a couple of people and convicted them of various charges.

    2. October 1993; 18 American troops were killed in a huge firefight in Mogadishu, Somalia. The bodies of severl of our soldiers were dragged through the streets. (Didn't the Iraqi's just recently do this? I wonder where they learned to do that? ) Clinton responded by pulling our guys out leaving the terrorists with what they saw as a victory, and left Aidid to enjoy his freedom. UBL also later referred to our military as a paper tiger. Where, oh where could he have formed that opinion?!

    3. November 1995; A bunch of Americans were killed or injured in a car bomb blast in Saudia Arabia. Advised by Clarke, Clinton just let it go, doing nothing.

    4. June 1996; an Air Force housing unit was bombed, again in Saudi. Once again advised by Clarke the Magnificant, Clinton did nothing.

    5. 1997, Iraq refused U2 flyovers. Clinton again did nothing after advice from Clarke.

    6. Aug. 7, 1998; U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed. Once more, Clinton did nothing on Clarke's advice. (Anyone else seeing a pattern here?)

    7. October, 2000; The USS Cole was attacked by terrorists. Advised by Clarke, Clinton did nothing.

    While I will agree that Clinton bears the ultimate responsibility for his decisions, it would seem that Mr. Clarke's plan for dealing with terrorist attacks was similar to the old "duck and cover" gambit that many of us remember practicing as kids, in the event of a nuclear attack. This could also be referred to the "Ostrich Doctrine".

    I was told a long time ago, that when you stick your head in the sand, your *** in in the air and unprotected. It would seem that Mr. Clarke's head was buried pretty deep; I just don't think it was in sand though. I'm left wondering if Clinton had to undergo anesthesia when they removed Mr. Clarke's head.

    What bothers me more than anything is that this man held his position as long as he did. The phrase "delusions of grandeur" certainly seem to apply in this case. He certainly validated the fact that the terrorists pretty accurately assessed the cost/benefit factors to nearly all of their acts.
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  11. #11
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    Originally posted by Steamer
    6. Aug. 7, 1998; U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed. Once more, Clinton did nothing on Clarke's advice. (Anyone else seeing a pattern here?)
    You're incorrect on this one brother:

    U.S. Strikes Terrorist-Linked Sites In Afghanistan, Factory in Sudan

    And if I recall, it was widely ridiculed by conservatives as an attempt to "wag the dog" and draw attention away from the Monica Lewinski "scandal."
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

  12. #12
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    posted by WTFD10: You're incorrect on this one brother:

    6. Aug. 7, 1998; U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed. Once more, Clinton did nothing on Clarke's advice. (Anyone else seeing a pattern here?)
    It all depends on what you read, and how you interpret the events. The bombing of our embassies occurred on August 7th. Our attacks in Afghanistan and Sudan didn't occur until something like 13 or 14 days later...right after Monica testified before the grand jury for the second time. Then right about the time the House was taking the vote on impeachment, we hit Iraq.

    I'd be a lot more likely to believe these incidents were a result of the embassy bombings if we had just done something...anything instead of sitting idly by for the incidents prior to the bombings of our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, and then followed that flurry up by doing nothing when they hit the Cole.

    Call me cynical, but I'm not buying it.
    Last edited by Steamer; 04-10-2004 at 12:40 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Originally posted by CollegeBuff



    It was.

    Since it sounds like you disagree, please describe how the destruction of an asprin factory and a couple of empty tents at all degraded the capabilities of Al Queda.
    I'm not sure if I disagree or not, the timing certainly was suspicious. I was just pointing out that something was done and the official explanation was that it was in retailiation for the embassy bombings.

    And I don't think it's much different than using September 11th as one of the reasons for going to war in Iraq.
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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