1. #1
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    Default Rit's reassigned

    I posed this question in another forum but what do you think about RIT's being assigned other duties on the scene which leave them shorthanded. Should the RIT refuse to be reassigned? Is this common practice? Thanks, Wizzer1

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    All RIC Team should stick together. Do only task that you can do and still monitor radio traffic. That means no loud saws.

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    Rodeo is right...what my dept. does is we designate one member to the radio monitoring, and have him hang back a little so he is not interrupted or bothered by anyone, and then he can report directly to the OIC of the team. Also, as far as other jobs, the RIT team CAN perform LIMITED duties, but you dont want to dedicate them into any of the regualar fireground operations. By other duties i mean setting up ladders if crews are working on a multi-story building, or having members go around and do their own size up so they have a first hand knowledge of the operation at hand, basically PREVENTIVE duties to assist them in case they have to go to work. If any guys out there have any other views or SOP's on this write them up, I'd love to see what other depts. do

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    Default RIT TEAMS

    RIT TEAMS SHOULD NOT BE ASSIGNED TO DO ANY TASKS OTHER THAN STAND BY FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF RESCUE. YOUR RIT TEAM NEEDS TO BE WELL RESTED AND READY TO ACT IF CALLED TO ACTION. I THINK THE LAST THING YOU WANT IS FOR THE GUYS THAT ARE RESPONSILE FOR RESCUING YOU IF THE UNTHINKABLE MAY HAPPEN TO BE EXHAUSTED OR DELAYED IN ENTRY BECAUSE THEY WERE COMPLETING ANOTHER TASK. I THINK IT IS TIME TO STEP IT UP A LEVEL IF YOU ARE SHORT HANDED AND HAVE TO HAVE THE RIT TEAM WORKING ON SOMETHING ELSE. AFTER ALL, THE SAFETY OF THE CREW COMES FIRST.

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    Yea i agree thr RIT crew should not be doing anything but watching the structure.

    in our dept. we have assignments for each member and have a staging area set asside with all our tools needed for a possible rescue and nobody and i mean NOBODY touches our stuff...they will come over and ask but we say no sorry this is for RIT please look elswhere and usually they understand. we run with a 2 crew "Recon" which is in full gear with mask on and ready...the other 3 members "Recovery" are in full gear but do not have their mask on. If activated, the "Recon" team goes in and investigates the cituation while the "Recovery" team dons the mask and waits for report on what is needed to complete "Recovery". all members have a radio. i guess thats it in a nut shell.

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    Well after reading the original question and the few replies I have mixed feelings. Either you work for a huge department that can immediately overhelm any incident with great resources of you have a very rigid system that you operate in. I will try to keep my thoughts in order as I address this:
    -Can RIT/RIC be assigned other tasks. Depends on which arriving apparatus is assigned RIT? If you have 4 engines on your run cards and Engine number 4 upon arrival is designated RIT, making full use of the stand-by teams during the intial phase of the incident, then you can afford to say that RIT does nothing else than RIT. That is because attack, vent, search utilities and back up are being filled. But if you assig Engine number 2 or 3, then RIT can assist with some peripheral functions. If you have kept up on all the of recent studies and/or attended any large RIT drills you have come to realize something. The RIT usually does not get it done. You will exhaust company after company attempting a rescue.But our focus continues to be on RIT, keep them fresh, dont bother them, dont touch their tools, dont touch their hose, meanwhile the conditions inside th structure deteriorate making it more unsafe for our brothers/sisters. Who are we helping. IS RIT the answer or is a fix for a bigger problem. I am confused by the reply regarding "Nobody touches our tools". So you mean to tell me that a back up line advancing in to help suppress a fire will have to go past a perfectly good stash of tools to get a needed ceiling hook or set of irons?? Why not let your brother/sister take the tools they need NOW and you replace the tools you might need later.....Anyway, a little different perspective. I can't imagine there will be any responses.. Stay safe and have fun!

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    Originally posted by send2scott
    Well after reading the original question and the few replies I have mixed feelings. Either you work for a huge department that can immediately overhelm any incident with great resources of you have a very rigid system that you operate in. I will try to keep my thoughts in order as I address this:
    -Can RIT/RIC be assigned other tasks. Depends on which arriving apparatus is assigned RIT? If you have 4 engines on your run cards and Engine number 4 upon arrival is designated RIT, making full use of the stand-by teams during the intial phase of the incident, then you can afford to say that RIT does nothing else than RIT. That is because attack, vent, search utilities and back up are being filled. But if you assig Engine number 2 or 3, then RIT can assist with some peripheral functions. If you have kept up on all the of recent studies and/or attended any large RIT drills you have come to realize something. The RIT usually does not get it done. You will exhaust company after company attempting a rescue.But our focus continues to be on RIT, keep them fresh, dont bother them, dont touch their tools, dont touch their hose, meanwhile the conditions inside th structure deteriorate making it more unsafe for our brothers/sisters. Who are we helping. IS RIT the answer or is a fix for a bigger problem. I am confused by the reply regarding "Nobody touches our tools". So you mean to tell me that a back up line advancing in to help suppress a fire will have to go past a perfectly good stash of tools to get a needed ceiling hook or set of irons?? Why not let your brother/sister take the tools they need NOW and you replace the tools you might need later.....Anyway, a little different perspective. I can't imagine there will be any responses.. Stay safe and have fun!
    My FD averaged about 18 guys at a structure fire. We'd sometimes get as few as 12. Yet, our RIT SOG required the 3rd company to take RIT. RIT is too important to keep putting it off. If it looked like we were going to be shorthanded, then we'd activate mutual aid (MABAS). The 3rd company philosophy meant the 1st company pulled the line while the 2nd company laid the hydrant then start vent or search. The RIT was expected to perform a walk-around of the building and ensure there were two ladders to every level above grade. Other than that, they did no work.

    Why? Because that is when Murphy was sure to visit. Same with leaving the tools just for RIT. Why? Because as soon as the squad took the irons from the RIT, THAT is when the ceiling would cave in and the RIT would be needed...they just wouldn't have all their tools.

    I suggest a mentality shift on your approach to RIT. RIT is not a hassle, it is not a pain in the neck, it is not punishment. It is insurance. It is a payment made, in time, manpower and equipment, that ensure that if YOU or one of your brothers ever needs help...I mean REALLY needs help...that there are 3 or 4 rested guys standing outside who are ready, able and willing to bring you out alive.

    If the other companies are getting exhausted during suppression and overhaul, call mutual aid. That's why it's there.

    If anyone wants copies of our SOG for RIT and FF rescue, email me at: jonathan_bastian@bullard.com
    You will have to manually take out the BR / and the <> in the address...for some reason, the forums always add that in.
    Last edited by firemanjb; 05-19-2004 at 08:35 AM.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    "My FD averaged about 18 guys at a structure fire. We'd sometimes get as few as 12. Yet, our RIT SOG required the 3rd company to take RIT. RIT is too important to keep putting it off. If it looked like we were going to be shorthanded, then we'd activate mutual aid (MABAS). The 3rd company philosophy meant the 1st company pulled the line while the 2nd company laid the hydrant then start vent or search. The RIT was expected to perform a walk-around of the building and ensure there were two ladders to every level above grade. Other than that, they did no work."

    Well then it sounds like you are putting the emphasis on accomplishing the necessary fireground functions, including throwing ground ladders (which seems to get missed a lot). The feelings that I have been getting from reading the posts and attending and teaching RIT/RIC classes and seminars is that the second arriving unit must be RIT, they must do nothing but RIT, their tools are theirs (we will just disagree on that one, Murphy or no Murphy, if I need a ceiling hook and it is 10ft. away on the RIT tarp, then I should be able to get it), etc. My personal feeling are that RIT is a much needed safety feature (not a hassle, punishment or other negative situation to be placed in) that has been forced upon us, because we did not police ourselves. My point is that we focus on RIT, when the real problem seems to be the lack of ability to recognize things that are killing us. We have fewer and fewer seasoned FF and Officers that can recognize early collapse, flashover, not getting lost in smaller structure and air conservation. So instead of focusing on this, we train on RIT. RIT is a need just like Haz-Mat, Rope Rescue, etc. I have seen RIT stand by while a hoseline is advancing in and they do not help advance the hose because they have to do nothing.

    You wrote: "The RIT was expected to perform a walk-around of the building and ensure there were two ladders to every level above grade. Other than that, they did no work."
    If a company of three or four guys, throw I believe that would be four ladders, aren't they busy during at least the first 8-10 minutes, assuming the there is either a ladder truck and or 4 engines close enough to retreive ladders from. And if not, if only one engine can lay into scene and others are away, do they still throw ladders, it sounds like you guys are calling them RIT but they really arrive and do some first due truck work?? Thanks for the info. it is helping me understand what you are talking about.

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    Originally posted by send2scott
    [BMy point is that we focus on RIT, when the real problem seems to be the lack of ability to recognize things that are killing us. We have fewer and fewer seasoned FF and Officers that can recognize early collapse, flashover, not getting lost in smaller structure and air conservation. So instead of focusing on this, we train on RIT.
    ****
    If a company of three or four guys, throw I believe that would be four ladders, aren't they busy during at least the first 8-10 minutes, assuming the there is either a ladder truck and or 4 engines close enough to retreive ladders from. And if not, if only one engine can lay into scene and others are away, do they still throw ladders, it sounds like you guys are calling them RIT but they really arrive and do some first due truck work?? Thanks for the info. it is helping me understand what you are talking about. [/B]
    1. You are 100% correct on the over-emphasis on RIT vs. staying out of trouble in the first place. Our RIT training involved an extensive amount of building construction, fire recognition and self-rescue skills. I used to say, "If you stay out of trouble, you don't need RIT." Firefighters who are SMART on the fireground should never have to call MAYDAY.

    2. On a 2-story building, we'd through 2 ladders to the 2nd floor with the RIT. That would come from each company in front of the building. Roof exits should be handled by the roof company. Throwing ladders is part of their job because they can walk around, see what is happening in the buidling, and get a feel for the layout inside. Plus, if a FF needs help, the ladder could well be the RIT entry or exit point. For us, the 1st and 2nd engines shared the truck work. RIT was truly RIT. By coordinating arrival directions, and with pretty wide streets, we never had the problem of only laying in one company. We might close the road, but we could stack 3 or 4 companies near the fire building.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Originally posted by send2scott
    Well after reading the original question and the few replies I have mixed feelings. Either you work for a huge department that can immediately overhelm any incident with great resources of you have a very rigid system that you operate in. I will try to keep my thoughts in order as I address this:
    -Can RIT/RIC be assigned other tasks. Depends on which arriving apparatus is assigned RIT? If you have 4 engines on your run cards and Engine number 4 upon arrival is designated RIT, making full use of the stand-by teams during the intial phase of the incident, then you can afford to say that RIT does nothing else than RIT. That is because attack, vent, search utilities and back up are being filled. But if you assig Engine number 2 or 3, then RIT can assist with some peripheral functions. If you have kept up on all the of recent studies and/or attended any large RIT drills you have come to realize something. The RIT usually does not get it done. You will exhaust company after company attempting a rescue.But our focus continues to be on RIT, keep them fresh, dont bother them, dont touch their tools, dont touch their hose, meanwhile the conditions inside th structure deteriorate making it more unsafe for our brothers/sisters. Who are we helping. IS RIT the answer or is a fix for a bigger problem. I am confused by the reply regarding "Nobody touches our tools". So you mean to tell me that a back up line advancing in to help suppress a fire will have to go past a perfectly good stash of tools to get a needed ceiling hook or set of irons?? Why not let your brother/sister take the tools they need NOW and you replace the tools you might need later.....Anyway, a little different perspective. I can't imagine there will be any responses.. Stay safe and have fun!
    Hey i have no troubles responding... heck sometimes i even learn something, thats why im here always willing to learn something new....anyways, i guess my comments on our Operations was pretty vague and very short cause i always feel quilty about taking up alot of space and writing a 40 mile long response because in life i do tend to ramble on( no cure ) anyways, as for my comments on " nobody touches our tools" does stand...its pretty known in these parts that the RIT Co. is suppose to use their own equipment and the staging area for the RIT is usually very near the Lead Eng. close to whatever the cituation might be so that they have a good view of the area...so walking another 4 feet to grab a tool isnt a big deal over here. there are only few companies in this area that actually run a RI Team with the "proper" equipment on scene but, this is fairly new around here within the last year or so. Most companies call a Dept. that isnt going to be a usuall responding Co. to do their RIT so that they dont deplete the entire one side of the County for one fire or whatever. We lax in "Truck" companies like the big cities, in fact in this county there are 4 trucks wait now their is 5 (sorry) and all in seperate companies throughout this area. So for us...i guess first Eng. in would be fire suppressions/primary search (depending on what the crew status is) the second Eng. in i guess would be considered the "truck" Co. operations with vent/secondary search...since we are ALL Vol. over here (which im sure i'll here about that one) we sometimes are short staffed BUT, our company we have grid plans for both commercial and residential for the primary alarms, second alarm, and if third alarm is needed then thats up to the IC for whoand what he wants/needs. We meet with our neighboring depts. once a year (unless there is a problem) and discuss the changes if any and make sure relations are on the uppty up. I would love to go somewhere and run with a big "City" dept. Eng. Co. or Truck Co. so i can see how you guys do things that would be awesome to do. we try our very best to be the best and train our little arses off in every section to fire ground tactics as possible.

    Dang i hope i didnt put anyone asleep with all that i hope that explains something at least hehhe...peace

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    Default RIC

    dwwm2c4 is right.
    RIC is a very good thing. Risk verses gain is better. Knowing when its safey to go in, and when it is not, is better. Going home after the shift is better. Need to look at the real problem.

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    Being in a rural area our RIT team will be a MA town and requested specifically for that function.Upon arrival they will set their tool stash and that's where it stays: DEDICATED TOOLS!You need a closet hook?Either bring it with ya or I'll send a runner.I'm going to suggest we don't call Maydays often enough;kind of a pride or I don't wanna screwup kinda thing.Far better to call when you're just getting or think you're getting into trouble than when you are ear deep in it.I've never had to activate the team yet but I can think of several times when it would probably have been a good idea.Training and using the teams make for good operational policy.If you feel you don't have enough personnel on scene to allow you to have a dedicated RIT might I suggest ordering a few more.The days of the "I can handle it heros are GONE". We need to look at things thru a different set of eyes.NOTHING is more important than the health and safety of our people;PERIOD!I've been doing this job a long time,it took a while for me to see the light but I've bought into the system.It works!No matter what you know or think you know about buildings and emergency incidents unpredictable events can and do happen.So why not have a little help in place to get you out of it?Makes sense to me.T.C.

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    What did we do before someone decided we had to have a RIT/FAST/RIC??? Anyway, they should be dedicated to their task, with their own tools that nobody is allowed to steal. The thing with the RIT is that the guys wanna break stuff and squirt water. Who wants to stand there, even though the concept is a noble one. The RIT really needs to be constantly sizing up the building, removing hazards, placing ladders etc. Let them do that stuff to keep them from chewing their nails off. At a fire last week our RIT guys did just that. Cleared trash and debris away from the entrances/exits, placed ladders, cleared window frames and glass/curtains etc.

    Sometimes its more important to get the fire put out than have fresh good guys standing there watching. If it means you have to have RIT guys doing ventilation for the engne crew, or controling exterior utilities...does that really tie them up that much? We won't have as much of a case for the RIT unless the fire keeps burning and we don't do anything about it. Its really a judgment call on the RIT officers part. Its pretty tough when you are running undermanned so often that you cant muster enough ff's to do the regualr fire duties, and to have to have a group of guys standing by while you know your brothers are fighting to get in and open up etc...can be tough....real tough. Its easy to talk about the what ifs, but alot different when you are there. If a RIT is reassigned, they should be replaced. In NJ the 2 in-2 out rule only requires 2 in the standby mode. Not like that will do anything for us, but sometimes you just have to stick to minimum compliance if you dont have the bodies in the early stages.
    Last edited by MG3610; 05-31-2004 at 08:52 PM.

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    I have been hearing a lot of suggestions to have the RIT engine be a mutual aid engine. I think that I understand this train of thought, but want some help on it. Does it make more sense to have that mutual aid companies help with some of the more common fireground tasks, other than RIT. I believe that if you can, your fire department/district personnel that you regularly train with and operate under the same SOP, should be assigned RIT. It almost sounds like people are assigning RIT to the incoming mutual aid engine, just to satisfy the RIT position, but are you filling it with the right people?

    I am still not sold on RIT tools being their own, but hey I am willing to ponder the idea. Forcible entry tools and rescue tools, I can lean toward, but not ceiling/trash hooks…..I am glad to hear that when you focus on RIT training, that Bldg. Construction, recognition of hostile events and air conservation are included.

    Do you see RIT (the initial team deployed) as a recon. Team or do you train that they will actually affect the rescue. Of course that is a no brainer, if we are talking about a guy/gal down just inside the structure. I am talking about the lost/trapped team well within the structure.

    Thoughts?????

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    Originally posted by send2scott
    I have been hearing a lot of suggestions to have the RIT engine be a mutual aid engine. I think that I understand this train of thought, but want some help on it. Does it make more sense to have that mutual aid companies help with some of the more common fireground tasks, other than RIT. I believe that if you can, your fire department/district personnel that you regularly train with and operate under the same SOP, should be assigned RIT. It almost sounds like people are assigning RIT to the incoming mutual aid engine, just to satisfy the RIT position, but are you filling it with the right people?

    I am still not sold on RIT tools being their own, but hey I am willing to ponder the idea. Forcible entry tools and rescue tools, I can lean toward, but not ceiling/trash hooks…..I am glad to hear that when you focus on RIT training, that Bldg. Construction, recognition of hostile events and air conservation are included.

    Do you see RIT (the initial team deployed) as a recon. Team or do you train that they will actually affect the rescue. Of course that is a no brainer, if we are talking about a guy/gal down just inside the structure. I am talking about the lost/trapped team well within the structure.

    Thoughts?????
    Well, for us when we are dispatched for a structure fire it is our dept. (3 eng.) the next nearest Co. for 2 eng. and a Co. that would not normally come work with us for the RIT. NOW, there are only a few Depts around these parts that could perform RIT operations...others just dont have the training nor the equipment to do so and we do not use them for this purpose. we have Grid system for our first due area and on a 1st alarm as example. West Mead #2 (us) West Mead #1 (seperate dept. same twp. just clear over) for 2 eng. Saegertown for RIT and a ambulance out of the city. and then of course we have a 2nd alarm mapped out as well so the OIC just has to ask for alarms...now if we need more, by this time OIC has settled down more and can remove the blinders and call for a specific unit from a specific dept. to come help.

    as for RIT tools being our own heck yea and as for closet/celing hooks we dont get those off our unti when we are called for RIT. we have a list of stuff that we remove from our Eng. and place onto a tarp that is out of the way of fire supressions yet close enough we dont have to come from a mile to hit the building or whatever, if a FF needs something that non of the other units on scene has and we have it on the unit then by all means they can use it, just nothing on are tarp is all we ask. once we get there and have things set up, our OIC contacts the scene OIC and makes sure he doesnt need anything and lets him know that we will be putting up ladders (if hasnt been done yet) and checking things out. we run with a 2 man "Recon" and a 3 man "Recovery". 2 guys go in find the subject, radio back to the recovery team and lets them know if there will be any special tools needed to remove the victim and the location of course, while the recovery team is making their way into the structure the Recon team is preparing the victim to be removed, if that FF was doing fire suppression during that time one of the recon takes over and defends the crew while victim is being removed. hopefully, ya can see how we do things over here at least at this dept. anyways, other depts do things different but, we feel confident they will get the job done or they wouldnt be there. peace

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    What did we do before we had RIT? Well in no particular order we had:Timber or heavy ordinary construction(no lightweight trusses etc)we had less plastic,we had REAL Engine and Truck companies(not the decimated versions we have now)We had old gear that didn't let is in as deep and on and on.As far as mutual aid companies doing RIT:Notice I said REQUESTED SPECIFICALLY for that task.The MA town will then provide me with a seasoned crew that is prepared for the task at hand.Just as I will provide them with one upon request.We don't currently have enough trained personnel in the early stages of an incident to staff the position for anything larger than a room and contents.So I'm quite confortable using one of my surrounding towns who we train with regularly anyway.Your area and responses will dictate to a large degree who,how and why you use intervention.What works for me may not work for you.Only your district will know to what extent you need to apply this system.I believe in it,I support it and it will be used here.T.C.

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