Thread: Critique

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    Default Critique

    Here's a good video for discussion:

    Fuego

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    I think we've already picked this one over, boss.

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    Some days you are going to loose one. Hope all the occupants had gotten out. The house can be replaced. No need to beat this department down. Looks like they did the best with what they faced and had on the scene.

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    Sorry Bob, I guess I missed it

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    Sorry Bob, I guess I missed it
    No problem, LT...I tried to find that thread, but I haven't, yet. I believe it pretty much boiled down to a debate over blitzing the fire with big lines immediately from the outside, or taking lines in the front door. It was a pretty good debate, too.

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    It is good to look over these things again. But I still think a quick hit with the 2.5" would have made a bid difference.

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    I missed the other discussion too, and I agree with the 2.5" hit.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Question

    Does anyone know where I could find more videos like this online?

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    I'd say they're scarce because of all the MMQBing from, well, people like me.

    We are starting to accumulate some video of our incidents. I tell ya, what a great learning tool. The video remembers things that we forget in the heat of battle, and it's a great help in critiquing an incident...

    ...but I'm not sure I'm interested in letting thousands of FH forum readers see our every wart!!
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    --General James Mattis, USMC


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    Our SOG is to attack garage fires from the inside, so you dont push the fire into the house, although it looks like it's already advanced inside, so a 2 1/2 from the front may have been a good option.

    I'm just impressed it's not on the ground. Nice save.

    Dave
    Last edited by Dave1983; 04-14-2004 at 10:38 AM.

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    There are two very clear cut ways to attack this fire. I have to say even though the garage is very well off on arrival I would still make an interior attack via the garage to house door. It would seem to me that you'd have less of a chance of pushing the fire back through the house. What we can't see here is the fact that the fire (in my opinion) is already running the walls up to the attic when they got there so regardless of the attack/ hose choice they still would have had to deal with the fire on the second floor and attics levels.
    Lots of lines and lots of hooks and you're going to work. Depending on their manning it would have been nice if they could have put multiple lines to work at the same time.
    If it were me, 2 1/2" to the interior garage door and 1 3/4" and hooks to the second floor and one for the attic.

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    It would seem to me that you'd have less of a chance of pushing the fire back through the house

    Pushing fire through a closed door is real tough. Ya gotta be there to know for sure, but I didn't see any smoke/signs of fire in the residence part of the house at the beginning.

    Whatcha gonna do once you open the kitchen door, and realize you've lost water pressure, the fire's bigger than you thought, or simply a breeze kicks up and that great big garage door funnels the fire down your throat. Better hope you remembered to put a strap around the door knob to control it...

    You have an intact seperation between fire & house -- work with it, don't breach it unless you have too. Don't breach it by opening the kitchen/garage door, don't breach it with your hoselines.

    I didn't see any signs that the fire was in the house. Nor did the fire get in through the kitchen door. Simply the additional time it took to get a line in position from the inside allowed the fire to extend to the 2nd floor siding, there was no line in position then that could stop it from extending to the eaves, and there went the attic.

    The FD followed "text-book" tactics, but sometimes instructors are too good on emphasizing "attack from the unburned side" and poor at getting across all the nuances of the craft. They also obviously did a decent job re-grouping and getting the fire under control after the extension.
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    All very good points points and well taken. Hadn't considered some of that. I still think if that were me that was making the decision, I probably would have done what they did.
    Losing pressure on the hose is something you face at any other fire. You mentioned what happens when you open that door and lose pressure, same thing that would happen at say an apartment fire or something similar.
    One thing for sure, if making an interior attack, door control is essential.

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    In December, we pulled up on a one-level, single-family wood/brick house. The front room was involved with fire and had self vented out a pair of windows. There was a decent amount of fire coming out onto the front porch and licking up around the edge of the roof. We stretched a line to the front door and went in from the side of the fire. We made a good knock-down and contained the fire to the front of the house.

    After the incident, some folks (who weren't on scene) suggested that we should have come in through the closed garage or found another way to attack from unburned side. However, if we'd taken the extra time to do that, I feel the fire could have breached the attic. A text-book perfect attack won't be effective if it's delayed.

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    In a situation like that you have the ability to pass the fire and still come at it from the unburned side. You can go in and go past that room and loop around the back of the house and knock it or knock it from the side and still push it out the front windows.

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    I'm just impressed it's not on the ground. Nice save.
    I would agree; however, I noticed a big jump in the video...from fully involved, with interior ops going on, to almost out...with the "stick" up. And, I can't see the back side of the roof, either.

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    Thumbs up

    Well I must say, I have been there. I was OIC, and cold, wind, snow and NEWBIES. But I think we all have been there once if not more..
    Last edited by Crisb1419; 04-14-2004 at 10:37 PM.

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    I'd opt for the inside-out route on this one. I have no way of knowing the door to the interior of the home is closed, or that the fire hasn't breached a wall, or began moving into attic. I've pushed fire through an entire building before, and I don't intend to do it again if I can help it. Nope. Two crosslays (1 3/4"), one to the interior door to the garage, one to the upstairs for extension (once I had the manpower for it). PPV to the front door of the res, keep that crap outside for the brief instant it takes my nozzleman to open up the door and hit the garage. Now of course there are many variables: victims, manpower, water supply, contents of garage, etc. THis would have to be a really aggressive and coordinated attack. I'd hope like hell I had some experienced guys on the rigs.

    BTW, I'd go for 1 3/4" over 2 1/2" for ease of handling and speed of deployment. I think that can be knocked down alright with 1 3/4" line.
    Last edited by mcleoud151; 04-15-2004 at 01:16 PM.
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    I have no way of knowing the door to the interior of the home is close

    Look inside.
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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    I have no way of knowing the door to the interior of the home is close

    Look inside.
    Assuming heavy enough smoke/fire you can't see the far wall. OF course, you know what they say about assuming. I still hold to my plan of action.
    "The more we sweat in training, the less we bleed in battle."

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    Assuming heavy enough smoke/fire you can't see the far wall.

    That's why we go up and, um, look. Even if the house is crystal clear, you still need to confirm the kitchen door is closed -- probably not at the time of year this video was shot, but put that fire on a nice spring day with the windows open and a gentle breeze blowing from the back of the house -- door could be open, feeding air to the fire, and you wouldn't know it unless you looked.

    Winter time, house was probably closed up pretty tight. No smoke poured out of the front door when it was opened. Wasn't there to look inside, but the outside sure screams fire confined to the garage.
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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    Assuming heavy enough smoke/fire you can't see the far wall.

    That's why we go up and, um, look. Even if the house is crystal clear, you still need to confirm the kitchen door is closed -- probably not at the time of year this video was shot, but put that fire on a nice spring day with the windows open and a gentle breeze blowing from the back of the house -- door could be open, feeding air to the fire, and you wouldn't know it unless you looked.

    Winter time, house was probably closed up pretty tight. No smoke poured out of the front door when it was opened. Wasn't there to look inside, but the outside sure screams fire confined to the garage.
    If you're taking the time to go to the door anyway, why not bring a line with you? There also is still the point of an opening to the attic and/or breached walls. All I'm saying is I'd like to keep it confined to the garage.
    "The more we sweat in training, the less we bleed in battle."

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    If you're taking the time to go to the door anyway, why not bring a line with you?

    So, you pull a line around the house with you while you're doing a 360?

    There also is still the point of an opening to the attic and/or breached walls

    So...out of concern that there *might* be a breached wall or opening to the attic (even though there is no smoke to indicate it), we'll open up a 3' wide by 7' high hole in the wall...

    A fire like this is very size-up sensitive. The tactics these guys used are ones drilled into people's heads for years under the mantra "Attack from the unburned side!" But that has to be coupled with good size-up where you figure out where the fire is, what it's doing, and how you're gonna work with the building and your tools to control it.

    There are times your hand will be forced to attack through a interior kitchen-to-garage door. But that doesn't mean it has to be our default mode.
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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    If you're taking the time to go to the door anyway, why not bring a line with you?

    So, you pull a line around the house with you while you're doing a 360?

    There also is still the point of an opening to the attic and/or breached walls

    So...out of concern that there *might* be a breached wall or opening to the attic (even though there is no smoke to indicate it), we'll open up a 3' wide by 7' high hole in the wall...

    A fire like this is very size-up sensitive. The tactics these guys used are ones drilled into people's heads for years under the mantra "Attack from the unburned side!" But that has to be coupled with good size-up where you figure out where the fire is, what it's doing, and how you're gonna work with the building and your tools to control it.

    There are times your hand will be forced to attack through a interior kitchen-to-garage door. But that doesn't mean it has to be our default mode.

    A 360 more than likely isn't going to show you if the garage to interior door is open or closed. You said to go up and, "um, look". To do that you'll probably have to go inside. If you're going inside anyway, youmay as well take the line with you. Since the house is being pressurized py ppv, you might as well attack from inside. ENSURING no further fire spread.

    I'm not sure where your talk about the 3x7 hole came from!?!? I'm saying out of concern that a wall or attic might be open, you should attack from inside if it's reasonable. My size up of this home leads me to these tactics. Your size-up leads you to different tactics. I imagine we could pull ten different guys and each would have at least a slightly different opinion of how to attack this fire.

    In no way do I condone "auto-pilot"; that is, going strictly by the book tactics on every fire. If that worked, it would make for an awfully boring job!!!!

    In the end, we each have our ideas, and we're not gonna' change eachother's mind.
    "The more we sweat in training, the less we bleed in battle."

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    Assuming heavy enough smoke/fire you can't see the far wall.
    Guess what; the door's open.

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