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    Default Other FDIC Show Stoppers

    In reading the threads on this site, I would say that Seagrave and Pierce were the only manufacturers at FDIC! For those who did attend, what other apparatus manufacturer's "new technology" did you see and what are your thoughts? What about the new Crimsen Fire Aerial device? I beleive that it was at the show, but not one mention of it. What about any new equipment, like Akron's new master stream nozzle that is designed the same way as the Saber Jet nozzles are?

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    Thumbs up

    The Crimson aerial was one of the most innovative products at the show. Their new sealed nylatron roller bearings system that the ladder extends and retracts on,( no grease))is a great design. And their new outrigger system was unlike anything I have seen before,it is the best of both underslung and vertically down jacking which will level the truck up to a 15% grade. They also had a pinable waterway that could lock in from the turntable. No walking down the ladder to transfer a pin or throw a lever. Great engineering I thought.

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    There is so much to look at. I used to attend two days...now I remember why. Everyone always does a good job. Even the company who only brings one truck. I could do that everyday. 5 hours seemed like 5 minutes.

    Anyway...I really liked the ROM door display. Not for the doors exactly but for their newest innovation which is still not completed.

    They are designing a roll up door that serves as a hose bed cover. It operates just like a roll up door but is mounted above the hose bed. Kinda small I know...yet neat to me. I like that kind of stuff at FDIC. I also enjoyed looking at Freightliners Unimog truck. Not in fire truck dress...but still awesome any way you look at it. I want one for my POV. The steering column assembly and pedals slide on a hidden rail system to the passenger side if thats where you want it. OR in the middle. In two seconds you go from left hand driver to right hand driver.
    Assistant Chief

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    CRIMSON:

    Crimson Ladder pinnable? Smeal came out with the positional waterway which electric activation a couple of years ago. And I do believe it is patented.

    Nylatron rollers making a ladder maintenance free? Come on, AI tried that one a few years back. There is nothing "Maintenance Free". Grease free maybe, but will they hold up with such a concentrated load on such a small area. I think someone tried the roller thing years ago and it did not work then, why do they think it would work now.

    Outriggers idea was OK, but how much of the body will have to be removed to access the rear cylinders.

    The way they had the ladder set up, you would crush the body if one was installed.

    Looks like another Aerial Innovations ladder to me.

    Nice cover up on the stress points of the overlap with the triangle shaped steel with the logo cut out to make it look like it was designed into the structure.

    SUTPHEN:

    New Aerial Ladder.

    PIERCE:

    Pack mule which is already patented by Smeal.

    Aluminum Ladder? Crazy.

    Heard other companies ****ed off over the 40' wall. There is a 16' display height limit for this show.

    SEAGRAVE:

    Using the RK platform? Have they gone mad?

    ROSENBAUER:

    Hot Dip galvannized ladder. Will it look like an old windmill in a couple of years?

    SMEAL:

    Stainless Steel bodies? Another player in the stainless market. It was impressive looking.

    Their own chassis? The "Altair". Playing the Sole Source game? Look out!

    HME CHASSIS:

    Back in their own booth.

    AHRENS FOX:

    Let's go build some rescue trucks.

    FERRARA:

    Did not see anything new.

    KME:

    Nothing new.

    E-ONE:

    Back to spending big advertising dollars. Will it save them?

    METZ:

    Hang a MiniVan from your aerial, but still can't operate at 100% extension on a horizontal plane.

    What will the IAFC bring????
    Last edited by ff43065; 05-06-2004 at 10:41 PM.

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    Was the new Sutphen ladder one with a "side mount" ladder? Heard some rumors/ chat about this last January when we were at Sutphen Corp.

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    Side mount ladder?????????

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    So Smeal is making a chassis now. Hmmm, I'll give it about 2 years to see if they stick with it and/or how they hold up. I suppose that the cab of this "new" chassis will be aluminum as is most of the competition. Are these going to be actually made in the corn fields of Nebraska or bought from CCC or some other cab maker who then farm them out to the "Cab builders" such as the case with Spartan? If Smeal is trying to impress people, come up with a stainless cab like Seagrave and Sutphen have to match the stainless bodies that Smeal is now getting into. By the way, how do you sell a stainless steel body to a customer and then turn around and attach it to an aluminum cab? Kind of defeats the purpose of the stainless body in the first place doesn't it? As for the Pierce Pack Mule hose bed, I detect a devoted Smeal fan being upset with them for developing anything that remotely resembles the famous Smeal EHL or whatever the slide out hose bed was called. It appears to be an entirely different concept from the Smeal version. But what do I know, after all I still like extruded aluminum cabs and bodies. As for the RK aerial, eventhough I am a true believer in aluminum aerials being better than steel, atleast RK (Rosenbauer) is trying to improve the rust situation by trying something different to combat the age old problem of steel aerials. We'll see if it works. And what about Seagrave and the "New" 104' LT? Hmmm. As mentioned before, its an RK aerial and platform with a different name on it and the chassis carrying it. And since "Close" business relationships were mentioned, lets not forget the "Close" ties of Sutphen and that little guy builder with a decent reputation, Precision. And what about this "Side Mount Aerial Ladder"? I say its in the warehouse with the 100' tillered ladder tower made by Sutphen a few years ago. LOL. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Sutphen was very tight lipped about it. All they would say was that the configuration made the length much less than any of their other aerials, and anyone else's. The "side mount ladder" comment was the only description I could come up with.

    The tillered aerial is actually in pieces. If you are ever at the Sutphen factory that handles the sticks, walk between the last two warehouses. There (if it is still there) will be the trailer, minus the aerial.

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    Smeals new "Single source" cab bears striking resemblance inside to our Ferrara Igniter, since FFA has been using Smeal aerials for a while now, I suspect its a little trade and probably the reason that they didn't buy the Pierce aerial design. they did an alright job disguising the Altair from the Inferno, but the interior gives it away...

    -Nick

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    FF43065, you ask about what will IAFC in New Orleans bring. Well here is my guess.

    Pierce: Will still be pushing their new aluminum stick and Pack Mule hose bed, the redesigned Quantum, Arrow XT chassis and 40' display walls at the show. LOL.

    E-One: A big push in the nuts and bolts, bread and butter, what pays the bills type of rigs that the average, smaller departments buy. Maybe another 117' Bronto on display as well as a tele-boom.

    KME: Same ole, same ole with an emphasis on the big rescue rigs and a typical tillered quint for the left coast, I mean west coast. LOL.

    Smeal: Big push of the Altair chassis and atleast one quint to push their EHL to combat the Pierce Pack Mule. Would like to see a lights out situation to see how the rung lighting really works. LOL.

    Sutphen: Lets see, a 70', 90' and 100' MM ladder tower and something about a new 5 section device design. And lets not forget their new stainless steel body line.

    Seagrave: Continued push of the disguised RK ladder tower in an attempt to gain market credibility. And lets not forget the Concorde chassis, whatever their new program rigs are and atleast one 95' scope.

    Rosenbaeur/General/RK: Will actually have a finished Minneapois aerial for the show. LOL.

    Metz: Like every other show will be holding something in the air from their crane, oops I mean aerial with removable platform and limited compartment space.

    AI: Hmmm. There still in business? LOL. Kidding with no idea on them.

    Spartan: The Evolution chassis as would be expected to battle the redesigned Quantum.

    Crimson: Their aluminum body and mounting system and its somewhat unique body options.

    HME: Pushing their chassis to other builders.

    FFA: The Inferno and Igniter and Smeal aerial line. Nothing really earth shattering.

    ALF/LTI: The Eagle line. Another Phoenix rig and the wonderful availbility of parts from the Freightliner dealer network. LOL. Also LTI will be well represented with a variety of aerials, the "new" MM 100' LT and another tiller to increase the takeover of the steel aerial market since Pierce is no longer a devoted steel aerial builder.

    These are just some ideas on the matter. Just a thought.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Last edited by STATION2; 05-07-2004 at 11:37 PM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Default

    And 40' display walls at the show.
    What wall....?


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    No, stop. Take down the picture. The glare coming off that bright, shiny aluminum aerial is blinding. LOL. Is that a ..., could it be a ..., it must be a .....................Pierce attempt to copy a real aerial manufacturer. Thats right, E-One. LOL. Just had to throw that in there. The real proof will be when they engineer their 100' variety. Thats when we'll see if they are serious about aluminum aerials and have spent the money for an equally simple and proven outrigger system as E-One. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Boy, ff43065, you are a real "glass is half full" kinda guy huh? LOLOLOL, were you impressed with anything at the show? Anyone have any pics of new cab interiors?
    John D. Cummings
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    Default Best cab interior component...


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    HFDCLanger,

    What is that for???

    A place to keep sodas and sandwiches?!!?!?

    FTM-PTB

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    Anybody see the new Sutphen 75' mid-mount "climbing" ladder? Has a lower overall height than their box-beam aerial ladder, is rated at 1000 lbs. instead of 500 lbs., and has a pinnable waterway. Anybody have pictures they can post?

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    whoops it is over here too !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Default

    From last year though....

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    right ..........no sense in creating a new thread ........just add to it............
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Talking Thread Police

    I am truly sorry but I did not take the free tour of "thread etiquette 101" when I signed on. I think the webteam should ban me from the forums.

    You have 5000+ posts
    I have under 25 posts

    People, some unknowingly like myself, start new threads.

    IT IS OKAY MAN, LET IT GO!!!

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    Who cares man. Post where you want. Atleast this way we don't have to go search the other to see what similarities there are between last year and this year. LOL.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Default Why aren't we WOWED?

    It is very interesting to compare last years comments compared to what is being said now after FDIC 2005. To that, I derive a couple thoughts:

    A) First and foremost, I believe we (including myself) fail to be humble in our appreciation of what kind of power and technology the engineers and manufacturers bring to us at FDIC. The show, without a doubt, brings together the largest display of technology and the broadest availability of knowledge and experience in the United States in one place, at FDIC. The technology, if the unexperienced eye can look beyond the glitz and glitter, shiney painted bent metal and chrome, is staggering. Being involved in the fire service for over 25 years, I can begin to say that we as Americans are truly spoiled! Spoiled to the point that the apparatus and equipment that is brought to us that we fail to realize how lucky we are to have this awesome display of technology. Technology, that 50% of the United States fire departments may never see reach their departments because they are less fortunate not having the means to buy any of this technology put before us at FDIC. Yet those that have the physical ability to get it, bitch about it or critique it to the point that they are selfish and almost ungrateful for the millions of dollars invested by manufacturers displaying the best of the best. To that I say, we are nothing but a bunch of spoiled Americans! There is no place else we can go to see this much fire power under one roof, (in my opinion), other than traveling to Intershutz, where the technology can without a doubt exceed the US technology. It may almost sound as though I am a foreigner by my comments, but I can assure you, I am 199% an American and damn proud of it! At Intershutz, we Americans would be humbled, as we could then see that we are more traditionalist blinded by the lack of common sense and testosterone polluted egos. The “European” technology at Interschutz is phenomenal and would baffle most of us, but somehow we would put a twist on it and some how say that it is foreign and no good for us, only to go back and pick on the technology we have here within our own borders. I can personally say to the coordinators, speakers, show producers and vendors of FDIC, BRAVO! What an awesome display of US ingenuity, technological advancements and sharing of experience by those who put this together for all of us to learn from which undoubtedly, betters the performance and safety of the United States fire service.
    B) This lack of appreciation brings me to the second point. There seems to be an inability to find “show stoppers” from this years show and many revert back to our ways of bashing our brand preferences against one another to make up for it. I would lend that we will continue to see a lack of “show stopper” views over the next several years at FDIC or any US show. Why do I say this? I believe that the US fire service has come to a point that there is really no “bad” brand, but many doing an “acceptable” job when it comes to overall fire apparatus design and production. YES, some do it a little better than others and there will always be the few companies who consistently can out shine the others with huge wall displays, videos, lights, mirrors and freebies that attract the literature pickers, verses those who really are open minded to true “technology”. It will become harder and harder, with the current level of non-traditional componentry acceptance by the US fire service, to “WOW” most over the next several years, in my opinion. I “think” we have reached a breaking point in technology, that is now limited to the “packaging” of current technology. Every manufacturer can now offer multiple materials, vary the lengths of ladders, mount equipment in a functional manner, and make it look just a certain way that is “acceptable” to us Americans stuck in tradition. I think we will all have the lack of “WOW”, until which point and time we allow foreign technology begin to leak into the next phase of US apparatus. The changes we will see over the next several years, in my eyes, will transparent to “most” end users. It will be technology that does things for us automatically, integrating significant amount of computer/pc based operating, that surely will be met with opposition by the hard core traditionalist, as it confuses them and makes them uneasy. To that I say, LEARN! Learn and gleen technology that has been in existence for years in “Europe” and be willing to advance ourselves through this technology. The technology I speak of is NOT new, it is has been in use in non-US applications for years, but we cannot see beyond our testosterone filled egos to embrace what it can do for us. The biggest changes, due to the fact that I think we have reached a cap in ways to bend and paint sheet metal, is going to be in new electronics, compact units size packaging and radical ways to reduce weights of apparatus, make them more maneuverable, allow for the fire pumps to be an “auxiliary device” of the “fire truck” and they will surely be multi-function machines. Pump panels will go away and become small compact, PC interfaced control displays. Aerials will not be HUGE hunks of iron or aluminum, more so designed to be cranes, not rescue ladders or platforms, due to the “Maltese gorillas” thinking “bigger is better”, thicker is better, and then we spend exorbadant amounts of money for more horsepower to get it down the street. We will have electronics that will not allow ladders to be tipped over while operating them, or systems that reduce the potential for apparatus from being rolled over during response. We will see pump packages significantly reduced and service becoming paramount, as our budgets will not afford to have apparatus out of service. Budget constraints requiring the units to be in front line with true reliability, as reserves will deplete, along with many of our budgets. I would ask; Why do we surround all of the pump and control with polished mirror panels and restrict ways of getting into them to fix service components? Why do we think we need 2000 gpm pumps when we know 90% of the time we could use 1000 gpm, reducing the weight of the vehicle and significantly reduce the envelope of the total vehicle size? Why do we think that a ladder must be a crane that carries ten people when we all know that 90% of the time we need to carry two, maybe 3 people? Why do we think we need 500 horsepower engines, when we could really do it with 300 horsepower if we more effectively looked at the design differently. Why do we think we need 24,000# independent front suspensions with 17-18” brakes? It is because we design these monstrosities that need them to make it not feel as though we are driving a construction crane, when we really are! One striking comment an individual industry leader and innovator once made to me was: “We need not be looking at what horsepower people “feel” they need, but more so looking at it from a horsepower / per ton of vehicle stand point”. If we could humble ourselves for a minute, that comment makes tons of sense, but not until which point and time that the US fire service is willing to look at other ways to reduce vehicle weights. Am I optimistic that we will see the US fire service allow this to happen soon? Not really, but I firmly believe that change must occur, to be “WOWED” anytime soon. We will continue to suttle changes and integration of Foreign technology, piece by piece, because we are to egotistical to see it happen all at once. Some good examples are:

    Rollup doors. How many did you see ten years ago? They have been standard and the only thing on “foreign” vehicles for 30 years!

    Electronic pump interfaces that let the pump engineer do something other than stand at the pump panel. It has been done outside of the US for over 20 years!

    Mutli-stage pumps that allow simultaneous operation of both high pressure and volume pumping at the same time, with high pressure flows of over 100 gpm! High pressure foam injection systems that allow for reasonably priced high expansion CAFS like (or equal) foam dispensing at a 1/10th the cost. It has been being done in Europe for over 40 years!

    Aerials that can be up to 135’ tall on a single rear axle eliminating the need for tandem axles behemouths that cost ungodly amounts of money to maintain. It has been being done for over 20 years in Europe.

    Elimination of pump enclosures, hindering service and requiring us to use ridiculous control systems to get to the device being controlled, because we box everything in to make it “pretty”. Its been being done in Europe for over 50 years!

    Ladder mounting systems that allow for us to have 30% more compartment space, while safely getting ladders to deployable positions thru the use of ladder gantries and systems that do not injure firefighters when lifting heavy equipment. It has been being done for over 20 years in Europe.

    Aerial devices that require ONE person to set up in a tenth of the time that a traditional US device requires! It has been being done in Europe for 15 years!

    Aerial electronics that can be short jacked with one operator and NO whizardry to understand what will happen if it is short jacked. Load sensing devices that allow the operator to NOT make any mistakes. It has been being done in Europe for 20 years.

    Tool mounting systems that allow for equipment to be deployed without reaching climbing and digging. Swivel, tilt, rollout designs that have been being used in Europe for 20 years!

    Are we seeing this stuff? I would lend “some”, but we let brand tattoos placed on our backsides stand in the way of accepting it until brand “X” introduces it and make it seem as though they invented it, when it has been in service for 20 years in Europe. For example, the ladder gantry on the Pierce rear mount pumper. It has been around forever in Europe, but now everyone looks at it as a Pierce invention! HOGWASH! The “Saulsburys” for instance, introduced a ladder gantry nearly 10 years ago and no one took notice because the limited brand notarity. Another good example is the ridiculous comments I hear about the Metz aerial ladder (or even use foreign another brand, I do not care, as there are several others that build similar designs). Is the Metz or Euorpean style aerial “different”? YES! But it does many things we cannot do with a US built aerial, yet no one like Pierce for instance has put their logo on it to make it “acceptable”. I would lend that if Pierce put their logo on a Metz or any other European style aerial and introduced it, overnight we would see people telling us how Pierce invented this new aerial that does things nothing else in the world does! OMG, this is crazy! Another. How may rear mount pumps were at the FDIC 10 years ago? I would lend that there was one, built by the “Saulsburys” (and I mean the Saulsbury of yesteryear, not the fake one now being purveyed by E-One). How many were there in 2005? I counted 15 and probably missed some! How many rollout drop down slide trays did we see 10 years ago? I would say one, by the “Saulsburys”, and in 2005 I saw at least 20 manufacturers displaying them at this years FDIC. On and on…….

    I would lend, that until the US fire service opens their minds, allows tradition to be broken and gets over the BS brand tattoos that are placed on their butts, they will continue to not be “WOWED” for some time to come! I say this because we have reached a saturation point, in what can be done with bent sheet metal and paint! Until we put egos that are ten foot tall and bullet proof away, we will struggle to be the worlds innovator in fire fighting technology, and continue to be a fast follower of European technology for many years to come. It will now be the little stuff that makes us smarter, safer and more efficient……… Can the Americans be ahead of the Europeans and be smarter and more advanced in the fore apparatus world? ABSOLUTELY, but maybe not in my lifetime…. Americans could be the worlds technology leaders, but the vast majority of the hard core traditionalist US fire service lacks the ability to accept technology. People will more than likely take offense to some of my comments and bash my strong opinion and comments, but it is expected, because the thoughts I pervey are certainly to radical for our non humbling, testoserone filled minds to accept or even "consider". To those US innovators and technology developers, I applaude your ability to learn and try new technology. Listen, talk to any and keep an open mind, regardless of your “brand” preference or you may miss something very special that saves your brother or sisters life………

    Stay safe and good luck!

    GUY

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    Some pretty big generalizations being made.

    I don't think it's a race, or a competition to see who is more "advanced." If you look around, there are plenty examples of superior technology being used, as well as thinking and design that is new and bold... and not just a re-release of what's been done in Europe.

    It's not an apples-apples comparison, however. The big one that sticks out in my mind is the historical difference in building construction and the larger emphasis on fire PREVENTION in Europe. Fire is fire -- obviously. But when it comes down to it, I think it's been proven that the difference in building construction necessitate different tactics in many cases. And this has implications for the equipment needed in implementing the tactics.

    Sure, they might have 135' ladders on single axle vehicles. Do they meet the same safety standards as our ladders? There is something to be said for an aerial that CAN support 10 people if it needs to, vs. one that maxes out at 2. I think we've already been down the lightweight aerial road before... I'd never want to go back. Electroncis to prevent the ladder from tipping over... I'm all set with that. Give me a small jack footprint so short jacking isn't an issue, and 100% range of motion without worrying about other bologna. Now THAT is simple AND reliable.

    "High pressure injection foam" is not CAF, and does not come close to offering the benefits of a true CAF system.

    Do many US departments put an emphasis on looks? Sure, but I don't think that always comes paired with a sacrifice in performance. There's no question that open pump panels and external valves would make service easier... and there are some departments who choose to do this.

    The horsies are normally used to meet performance spec's for the weight, so I'm not sure what the rant is here. I wouldn't want to give up water or strong aerials, or equipment... that doesn't leave much weight left over to play with.
    Last edited by Resq14; 04-19-2005 at 10:16 AM.
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    Arrow

    rofd1247 holy crap there mister ......... there was no sarcasm involved there ..........and I think you may have done the same ....I wasnt slammin anyone.........
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    It's all good brother. I must have taken it the wrong way.

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