1. #1
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    Default Standardized Apparatus

    This seems like something that has never realy taken off in the US as a whole.

    I was just wondering, does your department have a standaridized design for its units, IE engine, ladder, brush truck, rescue, etc...

    Are they kept uniform and identical, or are they a variety?

    Also, what about the big metro areas. I was looking at some apparatus websites and it seems that some of the big cities have standarization.

    IE this website:

    http://www.fdnytrucks.com/

    Are all FDNY engines the same, they look the same, but it seems they come from a variety of builders?

    Do they just have a standard set of specs that the various apparatus builders follow?
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    SamsonFCDES,

    I'll try to answer your question as well as I can.

    All FDNY front line Engines (with the exception of High-Pressure Engines) and Ladders are made by Seagrave. The specs are probably the most complicated and specific in the country.

    -There are a handfull of other makes out there, but many were donated after 9-11 by well meaning people...however most of them don't hold up well or meet our specs, or have too many bells and whistles that while they are nice, break and get in the way or fall apart. Most have been assigned to other uses.

    -There are a few of the older Macks still around...but they are either in reserve, reconfigured for use as a Foam Unit or at the Rock. I don't think we have any of the older American LaFrance models anymore. The last one I was aware of was the casion.

    They all have the same basic 3 or 4 section hose bed. All have 500 gallon tanks. They are all the same basicly. They are all modified by the individual company to the needs of that neighborhood. An Engine in Midtown Manhattan varries slighly from that in Jamacia Queens to that in the South Bronx.

    All new Ladder Companies are Seagraves. And they are standardized as follows:

    -All rearmounts are 100ft. with the same compartment size and arangements.
    -All Tillers are 100ft.
    -All Tower Ladders are made by Aerialscope and the standard Model is 75 ft. and in certian companies placed around the city there are 95 ft models.

    Any devations from the standard set up is because over time slight modifications are made which sometimes are shown to be successful, some are not and they are removed from future designs.

    As for the remainder of the Metro NYC area many of the appartaus are similar because the large amount of appartatus the FDNY uses are discarded after a set amount of years and many volly companies choose to purchase these rigs for thier use.

    FTM-PTB

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    We have NEVER standardize ANYTHING

    Here is our current fleet:

    http://www.city.hobart.in.us/Fire%20...me%20Pages.htm

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    Thanks FFFRED, that is interesting.

    And lucky for Seagrave!

    About how long ago was the standard FDNY engine set in stone?

    Any changes lately?

    Is there a board that review this once in a while, or do suggestions float up form the trenches?

    How often are they replaced?

    You mentioned that you didnt care for the dontated apparatus. I noticed a lot of apparatus builders mentioned that they dontated units post 911.

    I am sure their intentions were pure, but I do bet there was a small bit of hope that they could capture some of the FDNY orders away from Seagrave.

    I suppose the bells and whistles were put there to try and impress.

    Did any of the biulders ask for FDNY specs to build the donated trucks with?

    Any of the other brands of pumpers make a good showing on par with the Seagrave Standard engines?

    Sorry for all the questions, I am always full of them.
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    We dont standardize, our rescue and engine 4 (Our first due) have the same cab, and that is it for any type of model consistency. However I know you were interested in urban, were rural, but still.
    IACOJ

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    About how long ago was the standard FDNY engine set in stone?

    -- They aren't set in stone...but it is very specific and it is based on getting a very tough but user friendly rig for actuall firefighting not Parades.

    They are always trying new things and testing them...things we've tried and found to not to be useful or needed or outlived thier usefulness...
    ...Quints, Squirts, Ladder Towers(different than Tower Ladders), Pre-Plumbed ladder pipes, Rapid water, Conastoga canvas hosebed covers, high- ladders, side mounted ladders on Engines, High hose beds, etc....


    Any changes lately?

    --They have added a container for a hot stick to the Engine & Ladder companies. There was a WNYF article that covered new engine designs in the Late 90s.

    Is there a board that review this once in a while, or do suggestions float up form the trenches?

    --There are Chiefs, Mechanics, Firemen, Officers who are always working on this subject. The R&D guys are always getting feed back from the troops.

    How often are they replaced?

    --I don't remember the exact cycle but I think it is every ten years..not exactly sure though.

    You mentioned that you didnt care for the dontated apparatus. I noticed a lot of apparatus builders mentioned that they dontated units post 911. I am sure their intentions were pure, but I do bet there was a small bit of hope that they could capture some of the FDNY orders away from Seagrave.

    I suppose the bells and whistles were put there to try and impress.

    --They might impress hollywood FDs but they don't impress us, from what I've seen they usually break.

    Did any of the builders ask for FDNY specs to build the donated trucks with?

    --I'm sure they did as they looked sort of like our appartus, i.e.-No side loaded pre-conected hose...etc. Our Specs aren't secret.

    Any of the other brands of pumpers make a good showing on par with the Seagrave Standard engines?

    -Not according to anyone I know working on them as a fireman or mechanic.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 05-07-2004 at 04:12 PM.

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    Talking Lets float this to the apparatus page

    This will end the long running E-One vs Pierce thread. Nothing will last in New York except a Seagrave. So for all those arguing the point - which is better, E-One or Pierce, the answer is Seagrave.

    FFFRED - you wouldn't happen to be a little biased, would you/
    Have you purchased Seagrave stock?

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    Thanks for the info FFFRED, very interesting.

    One last question if you dont mind.

    How much does the standard spec engine cost? I would imagine that the FDNY gets a pretty good volume discount.

    LOK, hollywood FDs and their toys...

    Just waiting and watching...
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    I don't know the cost.

    If you are really interested, Subscribe to Fire Apparatus Journal. They cover every major metro FD.

    FTM-PTB

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    We have an E-One and two Mack CFs. Even though they're very different, we've tried to standardize the equipment placement as much as possible. For the most part, if you know where something is on the E-One, it's going to be in approximately the same place on the Macks. Our OES engine is quite different in layout, but that's because the state set it up, not us.

    Our two ambulances look almost identical from the outside, but have a slightly different internal configuration. Still, most everything's in the same place.
    Chris Gaylord
    Emergency Planner / Fire Captain, UC Santa Cruz FD

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    Originally posted by fieldseng2
    We have NEVER standardize ANYTHING

    Here is our current fleet:

    http://www.city.hobart.in.us/Fire%20...me%20Pages.htm
    You think that's non-standardization?
    I know of quite a few departments in my area that can't even settle on what color to paint their apparatus! Some red, some white, some lime...a rainbow of fruit flavors!

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    Originally posted by fieldseng2
    We have NEVER standardize ANYTHING

    Here is our current fleet:

    http://www.city.hobart.in.us/Fire%20...me%20Pages.htm
    On the equipment pages it talks about "Waterless" pumps on a bunch of trucks...

    What is a "Waterless" pump?

    Waterous, maybe?
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    On the equipment pages it talks about "Waterless" pumps on a bunch of trucks...
    LMAO

    Yes I suppose thats what he was trying to say...He screwed up the tank sizes on the engines too....







    You think that's non-standardization?
    I know of quite a few departments in my area that can't even settle on what color to paint their apparatus! Some red, some white, some lime...a rainbow of fruit flavors
    You have no idea what a pain that subject is

    We have a SOG how to open and drive thru the bay door...but none on fireground operations..its a free for all and each shift does things very different from the rest......as far as specing an engine everyone points a finger at the other guy when something is screwed up on the specs...

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    Ft. Lauderdale, Las Vegas, St. Louis, Richmond, and many others have performed total fleet replacements in recent years. Countless cities have adopted a single design template for their engines, ladders, rescues, etc.

    Tallahassee went against tradition and came out with a fantastic design for their new engines. The rescue pumpers squeeze a 1,500gpm pump, 750 gallon tank, 1,200’ of 5” hose, full complement of ALS gear, and 180 cubic feet of compartment space onto a 166” wheelbase. Features like fully stainless rear-mount pumps, FoamPro systems, brow lights and body-recessed fixed floods, oversized water level lights, inside-outside access EMS compartments, hydraulic ladder racks, multiple-SCBA bottle wheel well storage, and pre-connects that are loadable from the ground will now become standard on new TFD pumpers.

    Adding two floods to the rear, a Profiler light mast, CAFS, dual 5” beds, a TFT Monsoon, custom compartmentation, a 3” front bumper discharge and bumper extrication tools would provide an extremely compact and effective, truly multi-purpose apparatus for any department. Eliminating the speedlay beds and re-locating attack lines to front bumper and rear-hose box donut roll beds would bring this already-compact design down to an amazing 144” wheelbase – the same as a Chevy extended cab pickup.

    Here’s a sampling of smaller departments that have adopted some of the better designs out there for multiple apparatus orders or total fleet replacements:

    Fallon, NV
    Rattlesnake, CO
    Mason, OH
    North Lake Tahoe, NV
    Granbury, TX
    Magnolia, TX
    Spring, TX
    Crosby, TX
    Trumbull, CT
    Annaville, TX
    Marion, VA

    My department is taking the best ideas of these and more for our own standardized apparatus design/multi-unit order.
    Last edited by HFDCLanger; 05-08-2004 at 05:16 PM.

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    Some one from the West coast needs to answer this ---- doesnt the state OES have a standard design for their engines? Seems like a good idea when trying to assemble a task force from different areas.

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    Default Re: Standardized Apparatus

    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
    This seems like something that has never realy taken off in the US as a whole.

    I was just wondering, does your department have a standaridized design for its units, IE engine, ladder, brush truck, rescue, etc...

    Are they kept uniform and identical, or are they a variety?
    Our engines are all set up the same equipment wise for the most part. we have 2 KME engines which are twins only people in the department know the less then 5 differences in them. Eng.29-1 carries the TIC and a BCT and we use this unit as our first due on all structures and RIT assist. Eng, 29-2 has the Holmatro combi-tool and is second due for structures and second due for MVAs. Eng.29-3 is our ol'e gal the ALF.Our department had all ALF's and now are replacing with all KME's to keep things uniformed. The new rescue we have in mind will have the same Cab design as the 2 twins and hopefully down the road a ways we will replace the last Eng. with a truck and i would assume we would try to get as close of cab design as the twins.

    We think by making everything the same and putting the equipment in the same compartments it makes it easier for the crew to go from one unit to the next and be able to go right to the compartment you want instead of going around the whole unit opening every door thinking...dang i thought it was in here hahaha. if i could figure out how to post pics i can through our rigs up.

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    We are getting closer to standardizing our equipment. The last engine our other station got was somewhat mirrored after our engine, except there was a 12 year difference between them. Striping and everything was added to ours to make it look similar.

    The other station also is getting a new ambulance and it was spec'd to be just like the our 1998.

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