9/11 Commissioner John Lehman should apologize!

[ChiefReason]

I watched some of the 9/11 Commission's hearing today and I was outraged by the comments of Commissioner John Lehman in regards to the New York City Police and Fire Departments. He said:

The departments' lack of cooperation was scandalous and not worthy of the Boy Scouts.

Families of 9/11 victims both mocked and booed Tom Von Essen and Bernard Kerik during their rebuttals to the accusations made against their departments during the response to the World Trade Center disaster.
I am disgusted at the total lack of respect for the efforts of police and fire personnel on that day.
Whether you like Von Essen and Kerik or not; this isn't about them. It's about putting the blame where it belongs; ON THE TERRORISTS.
Who knew prior to 9/11 that the Twin Towers would come down?
Families of the victims that include families of firefighters and police officers are wanting to blame everyone up to and including Mayor Guiliani for the loss of their loved ones. There were problems encountered during that day; that is a fact, but to compare the response of the emergency services to the disaster to activities of Boy Scouts is a slap to the face of EVERYONE who wears the badge and uniform.
It is shameful; it is sickening and it is wrong.
John Lehman should practice the Boy Scout Creed and should also walk a mile in the boots of NYC's finest and bravest.
In fact; he shouldn't apologize. HE SHOULD RESIGN!
CR

[stcommodore]

ill agree, that mans comments were totally out of line and a dishonor to all the people that died LODD that day.

[cozmosis]

I don't think the comments dishonored any of the brothers that died that day. In fact, I think his comments are right on. It's possible that 343 firefighters did not have to die that day.

Certainly, the people ultimately responsible for that day are the people that planned & carried out the attacks. However, it seems that there were things that could have been done (i.e. better communication) that would have limited the losses. It's important that they fix what was broken on 9-11 so that it doesn't happen again.

[RSchmidt]

Some of the remarks have been right on-though hardly original.The environment is more of the Jerry Springer(no offense to Jerry!) type that doesn't lend itself to any type of non-partisan, non-biased, fact finding...Too much heckling, too much politics, too much bovine scatology, way too much pontification...Business as usual for the bureaucrats that are "serving the people".
IMHO most of them aren't serving the collective good-they are just serving their own agenda...

[oldman21220]

Prior to 9-11, I wonder how many of these people wanted more of THEIR money spent on improved comminications. I'll bet the answer is pretty close to zero.

[E229Lt]

Coz:

It's possible that 343 firefighters did not have to die that day.

Possible? Let's not overlook a few facts.

It took only 1 hour and 40 minutes from start to finish. That's the first impact to the second collapse.

It took only 27 minutes from the first to second collapse.

It took only 14 minutes from the first impact 'til the decision was made to evacuate both buildings...of occupants... THEN Firefighters/Police.

When a third plane was reported "inbound", rescuers continued their duties, no IC could have stopped them. Same with the aftermath of the first collapse.

Collapse #1 drove rescuers back, but only for the time it took for the dust to settle they ten began searching the pile, no IC could have stopped them. Many were caught under the second collapse.


Perhaps firefighters did not HAVE to die. The simple choice to leave, not enter, not help or not respond at all would have saved all of them, wouldn't it? The timelines show how quickly this event unfolded. Remember the scope of the incident (two cities on fire, two cities needing total evacuation). No rescuer HAD to die unless they felt compelled to do their job.

John Lehman has ZERO concept of what we do, his comments were the true scandal.

[ThNozzleman]

Initially, we heard stories of stations and firefighters "self-dispatching" to the WTC, leaving other areas of the city unprotected, even missing calls, because nobody was staffing the house being called. Has there been anymore talk or evidence of this?

[Bones42]

Noz, I personally know a few people who "self-dispatched" to the scene. Their words to me was that checking in with an IC was too difficult at the time so they simply joined with their companies. I won't say what they did was wrong. I won't condemn or praise their actions as I was not in their shoes. They made a quick decision in a time of crisis and acted on that.

My wife and I watched the news last night and she came up with some thoughts on this 9/11 Commission deal. Basically, her gist was that if the NYPD and FDNY still don't co-operate and function together, none of this is going to matter. Now, I am willing to bet that the animosity is not so overwhelming as the press makes it, but I do know some guys up there and it's not always rosy.

These families are complaining that the City was unprepared and did not plan for how to handle the WTC collapsing. I ask this, is it really possible or even feasible to plan for every possible emergency that could ever happen in your area?

[stcommodore]

Is it possible to make the communication any better right now?
Is it possible to plan for every sort of disaster still?
Is it possible to increase the ability and overall workings of the OIC to handle anything similar?

[ChiefReason]

Let's see a show of hands. How many of you believe that the emergency services in NYC did nothing to improve their responses after the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993?
If you raised your hand, then you should stand in line with the rest of the critics who are getting ready to cash the checks that they think they are going to get as soon as these commission hearings conclude.
How many are old enough to remember the House Committee on Un-American Activities? Tell me that didn't leave a bad taste in your mouth. The only difference between then and now is that this commission isn't looking for communists. Hell, they aren't even looking for terrorists. They are looking for someone here in the US to blame so they can sue, get a book/movie deal, get elected to public office or say "I told you so". In any event; it won't make the loss of their loved one any easier to accept. It won't bring their loved one back. What it should do is to make the next response even better.
Do you honestly believe that if we pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq that we will no longer be a target of hatred? If you do then you're world is full of rainbows and unicorns. It is not to protect the oil; it's not about flexing our muscle. It's about finding the bad guys and putting them away; one way or another.
The families of soldiers, police or firefighters to sit there and think that being in that line of work doesn't involve dealing with really bad stuff and risking your life clearly didn't have a clue when their loved one came home and said "I joined up". What didn't they understand? Apparently, they thought it was going to be a 9 - 5 job with a good paycheck and benefits. Going to war or responding to a dangerous situation apparently didn't enter their mind.
Nope; sorry. The men and women who responded to the WTC on 9/11 are true heroes. The ones who are trying to capitalize on their supreme sacrifice are despicable, disgusting and putrid wastes of flesh.
Take the cameras away and I will guarantee the rhetoric will cease.
Bunch of sickos.
God Bless America and those who serve and protect.
CR

[Pride373]

Do not "New York Post-ify" this discussion. I believe Lehman was right. He could have phrased it better, but the bottom line is the communication between PD and FD that day was terrible.

He is not calling the brave men and women who responded that day "boy scouts". Everyone knows that the workers who showed up to work on Tuesday the 11th did their jobs without thinking twice about it. The bitter disputes between PD and FD in the city are where Lehman's attacks are directed.

The NY Post is the real bastards. They completely USED Lehman's quote to stir up New Yorkers and sell papers. That paper is a joke.

[stcommodore]

I think the FD and PD did the best they could all things considerd and I think they need to be figuring out how they can improve it for the next event now spending valuible money pointing fingers.

[LadyCapn]

I also don't get the impression that responders are being attacked for their actions, but more so those who are deemed "in charge" are being held accountable for their actions, or lack thereof. The point being, no, you cannot plan for everything, however almost 3 years after an event of that magnitude and nothing has changed. Two Departments are still unable to work hand in hand to mitigate an incident....that is the crime.

[ChiefReason]

Two Departments are still unable to work hand in hand to mitigate an incident....that is the crime.

And of course, New York City is the only place where that happens.
Sorry; but there are all kinds of agendas being serviced by this panel. And a few special interests groups to boot.
The panel is a sham and I will put their report right next to the Warren Commission report on the assassination of President Kennedy.
And don't forget; some of those who "were in charge" are dead.
CR

[LFD221]

I have seen very little of the coverage, but what I saw brought a lot of emotion to the surface. For any of us who were not there, we have no business second guessing the responders actions. They did what they thought was best, and many are not here today to "justify" those actions. We have to believe they did the right thing because that's what their training told them to do.

To spend time and money pointing fingers and identifying all of the problems has only one justification. To keep something like this from happening again. Will all the problems get fixed? No. Will there be guaranteed communications, no matter what the incident? No. Can we hope and pray that things will improve? I sure hope so.

I think we should do whatever we can to implore the commission to focus on fixing problems, and not affixing blame. If anyone knows the best method of doing that, let us all know. This should not be a political issue (although everything seems to turn into that), but an improvement on logistics.

Just my two cents.

[Bones42]

USFA Tech Report on WTC 1993 Read it. Very interesting. Some common failures mentioned - poor communications due to inadequate radio system, poor communications between agencies, larger event than planned for.

I am not saying they did not do the best they could, but 8 years earlier they found these problems. Did they "fix" any of them? It won't change what happened. Hopefully, things will be "fixed" and there may be better results next time.

[e234ff]

I have a couple of points that i would like to bring up.

First of all, I agree with E229Lt on this one whole heartedly! None of the 343 brothers had to die that day, they could have been lifeguards or worked at wal-mart. There was no way that they could have been told to evacuate from those buildings with thousands still trapped. Thats the reality of it. "To protect and life and property" even if means making the ultimate sacrifice. Now i am not saying that a LODD is justified in any means, but the nature of the business means that is always a possibility.

Secondly, for a commission member to imply that the the emergency responders were not worthy of being boy scouts is a total disregard for our profession and a insult to the men and women that lost their lives. He should be grilled over this for years to come...

Lastly, Hats off to Former Mayor Giuliani for his remarks to the panel just a day after the grilling of the fire, police, and OEM commissioners. Way to go may for standing up and saying what should have been said by so many others who sat before this panel. I have watched some of the other interviews and have never seen such brow beating of public officials STILL IN OFFICE as this panel has done.

Lets fix the problems that were made, but not by beating on ANYONE. Why encite people to be angry at anyone other than Osama and his henchmen? It is insane

LEHMAN = MUTT


FTM-PTB

-------------------------------
Jason Gray
Member IACOJ
Vice President, STNYFOOLS www.stnyfools.com
Firefighter

[kosmo27]

Some companies self-dispatched, I like to think they did some good. It's hard to pull back on the reins.

Lehman made me sick, I wanted to drive to the city and ask him what he would have done if he was in any of the companies that responded on any of the 5th alarms? Do the fire and the police compete at alot of stuff? YES. Most of the time everyone acts PROFESSIONAL.It's the few times that we get stupid idiots on both sides that let ego get in the way that makes the news.

It hurts.....

[ThNozzleman]

Some companies self-dispatched, I like to think they did some good. It's hard to pull back on the reins.

Maybe so; however, this is something we must avoid doing, no matter the level of incident. It's hard enough to control the people you KNOW are on the scene, let alone those you don't.

[ameryfd]

The 9/11 Commision has become such a political sham it's sickening. What was supposed to be a group of people trying to figure out what happened that day and use it to prevent it from happening again has turned into a bunch of egoists trying to cast blame and point fingers rather than figure out how to make America safer.

Any objective person can figure out that no group, government or especially emergency service could have put a contigency plan in place that could have forecasted the devestation and mass incident that the attacks brought. Obviously there were communication problems, but regardless of what Lehman, Kerry and many others on the commision seem to think....pointing fingers is not going to solve any problem....it only shows them for the egotistical political hacks they truely are.

In their search of a scapegoat...they've turned themselves into a a bunch of mean spirited elitists....

It obviously is not the intention of many of the members to find out what went wrong....it seems more that they are just looking for people and things to blame.