1. #1
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    Unhappy I just dont get it..........

    Nothing bad will happen if we still ride the tailboard for the big wetdown, will it ?
    New Jersey Firefighter Falls Off Firetruck


    JAMIE GOLDENBAUM
    Courtesy of The New Jersey Herald

    A Hamburg volunteer firefighter was not seriously injured when she fell off the back of a fire truck while enroute to a new truck wet down in Andover Township on Saturday, police said.

    It was “just a plain accident,” said Sgt. Ron Smith of the Andover Township Police Department on Sunday of the incident.

    Hamburg resident Cindy Scott was standing on the back of a Hamburg fire truck while the vehicle was traveling about 25 mph when the incident occurred Saturday on Limecrest Road around 7:10 p.m., Smith said. The truck was rounding a curve when Scott fell onto the roadway.“She was standing on the running board holding on to a hand rail with another firefighter, and she went to change her hands and she just lost her balance and fell off,” Smith said. “Thank goodness the truck was not going fast at the time.”

    Hamburg volunteer firefighter Pat Nicolai witnessed Scott falling from the truck and later spoke with police. Volunteer firefighter Angelo A. Cocchiara was driving the Hamburg truck, police said. Scott’s fall was an accident and no charges are expected to be filed in response to the incident, Smith said.

    The 39-year-old Hamburg woman was wearing a fire helmet when she fell, and Smith said it likely saved her from more serious injury.Scott hit her nose, which was bleeding after the accident, and face against the roadway, Smith said. She was transported by the Newton First Aid Squad to Newton Memorial Hospital.

    A spokeswoman for Newton Memorial Hospital said Scott was treated and releasedSaturday.Goldenbaum 5/23/04 waiting for hospital to verify, nurse supervising had to verify.

    After Scott was transported to the hospital, the new fire truck wet down went off as planned at the Andover Township firehouse at the intersection of Limecrest and Lake Iliff roads. Limecrest Road resident George Koenig, 57, said he lives near to where the fire trucks were staging at the Long Pond School in preparation for the wet down celebration.

    Saying that firefighters appeared excited at the time of the accident, Koenig said caution and safety should always be mindful. Koenig suggested that firefighters should not have been positioned outside the truck except for emergency situations.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Didn't she know that you aren't supposed to change hands when rounding a curve? Jeez, no wonder we can't ride back there anymore, no one knows the rules.

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    Was this, by chance, an antique truck that did not have any other area to ride? Was she on the side running board or the rear tailboard?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    It was “just a plain accident,” said Sgt. Ron Smith of the Andover Township Police Department on Sunday of the incident.
    More like just plain stupid. She is VERY lucky to have survived this with no serious injury.

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    Was this, by chance, an antique truck that did not have any other area to ride?
    Very well may have been. Most newer apparatus have very little room to ride back there comfortably and safely. Indications from reading the story give the impression she was on the rear step.

    Although the self-proclaimed safety wizards on here will say she should not have been back there in the first place.

    More like just plain stupid.
    That's your opinion. Not everyone has the luxury of a Fire Apparatus with closed cabs or a spare vehicle for everyone to ride in. And POV response is more dangerous if you ask me. So you penalize people who have no means of buying modernized fire equipment? I would rather have one piece of apparatus with eight men on it, four being on the backstep, than have four pieces with two men because of safety. It is the lesser of two evils, depending on how you look at it.

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    Default Is that my cue?

    Tiller,since you rang my bell I'd be inclined to agree with you EXCEPT:There are very few thinking people on the nations highways even less of those who can READ.Common sense is no longer common therefore the need to surround our personnel with steel.At least from my perspective POV's can be regulated by policy just like Fire apparatus.Infractions of policy are dealt with by our Safety division the same as apparatus infractions including time off/suspensions as indicated.In the old days it was fun to "rear step",today it is an UNACCEPTABLE liability due primarily to the ligitinous society we live in.Everybody's got an opinion on this subject but our personnel do not ride on the outside of our vehicles unless they are loading hose,period.And that is done with the Engine driving FORWARD over the hose at walking or less speed.Generally the hose is rolled and reloaded at the station but occasionally we'll load short lays in the above fashion.I'm one of those Safety "fanatics"you reference and proud of it.I posess no resource more valuable than the people who work for this Dept;without them all the shiny iron on the USA soil will not mitigate an incident.Thoughts to ponder.T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-25-2004 at 12:01 PM.

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    Originally posted by TillerMan25


    Very well may have been. Most newer apparatus have very little room to ride back there comfortably and safely. Indications from reading the story give the impression she was on the rear step.

    Although the self-proclaimed safety wizards on here will say she should not have been back there in the first place.



    That's your opinion. Not everyone has the luxury of a Fire Apparatus with closed cabs or a spare vehicle for everyone to ride in. And POV response is more dangerous if you ask me. So you penalize people who have no means of buying modernized fire equipment? I would rather have one piece of apparatus with eight men on it, four being on the backstep, than have four pieces with two men because of safety. It is the lesser of two evils, depending on how you look at it.
    Call me a safety wizard, but she should not have been on the back of that rig, especially not to "a new truck wet down."

    There is making due with what you have, and then there is being smart. Pretty much everyone here knows not every department can afford the latest and greatest rigs available, but that should NEVER be an excuse for putting your brothers (and sisters) in harms way at very little benefit. Using a little common sense everyone can make it home safely. In this situation though... why wasn't she atleast strapped in some how? There really isn't any excuse for that.

    We can argue back and forth on whether in an emergent responce they should or shouldn't have had FF's on the back of that rig, but this was a non-emergent responce where no lives were at risk, and no property was in danger. There was simply no reason to be on the back of that rig, and there is little you can say to justify it.

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    There was simply no reason to be on the back of that rig, and there is little you can say to justify it.
    Oh, he'll try, I'm sure.

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    I am so sick of the "we are putting ourselves in harms way" argument.

    NEWS FLASH! Firefighting found to be inherently dangerous! More to come....

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    Originally posted by TillerMan25
    I am so sick of the "we are putting ourselves in harms way" argument.

    NEWS FLASH! Firefighting found to be inherently dangerous! More to come....
    So dangerous that we insist on hurting people even when we don't have to? Like throwing them off the tailboard on the way to a non-emergency, non-priority ceremony? I don't think so.

    I understand where you are coming from. You can't make everything we do safe. We will face dangers. Many of us will get hurt doing the job and some of us will die. But if we can prevent those injuries and deaths, isn't it worth it to be just a bit safety-minded?

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    Exclamation

    She must have been asleep in class when the instructor spoke on, "THY SHALL NOT RIDE THE BACK STEP".

    I really can't under stand why,who ever was driving the truck or who ever was suppose to be in charge allowed this to happen.

    We all have been taught, or I should say, BANGED IN OUR HEADS, Not to ride the back step. Not even for a 1/4 mile ride or just out the door on the ramp. Too many things can happen.

    She was riding on the back step and was changing hands as the truck went around a curve? WHY was she changing hands? If they had to ride the back step, WHY didn't they have a safety belt on? Too many whys here, folks.

    Bottom line----


    STAY OFF THE BACK STEP WHILE THE VEHICLE IS IN MOTION. PERIOD!!!!





    STAY SAFE FOLKS

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    Default Glad to see she is OK

    I'm glad to see that this firefighter is ok with a few bumps and scrapes....God knows it could have been much worse. - Sometimes we just don't think and that is what appears to have happened here. I'll agree no one should ever be riding outside the vehicle or ride standing up....Those days are simply over. Be it a parade, wet down, or whatever. This was a preventible accident to say the least.

    I wish a speedy recovery for the injured firefighter.

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    Unhappy i just dont get it

    Traddition has been killing are brothers and sisters for years. Why stop?? Because it the right thing to DO!! While being seen on the tailboard may keep with tradition, There have been to many injuries and deaths directly related to this one simple act. We talk about mitigating risk, or risk assesment all the time in fires, rescues, or Haz-Mat incidents. To pay the ultimate price for a chance that another may live is what we do, To pay the ultimate price to ride the tailboard for tradition is truly a waste.

    stay safe

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    Default I Lived to tell about it

    Back in the early 80's when I started with the fire service, I have quite fond memories of catching the tailboard on our engine co. I understand the safety side of the debate, but that doesn't minimize the pure joy of those days. Well, to be a smart@ss, perhaps if "big brother" didn't intercede to tell me how to do it safely, I'd be dead by now
    Brian Rowe
    Paramedic/Engineer
    Colleton County Fire/Rescue

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    I also lived to tell about it,and I don't like over regulation any better than the next guy.But simple facts remain:Traffic counts have increased at record rates while apathy abounds and highway intelligence is plummeting.Add this to the lack of training time and increased exposure and the risks to putting valuable personnel riding the tailboard;the risk vs gain tips the risk side into an unacceptable exposure for our personnel.We used to do a lot of stuff in the old days that if you had some intelligence you could live to tell about.Was it smart?Not hardly,and I've got a few battle scars to prove it.As Tiller says,firefighting is inherently dangerous but is it wise to expose ourselves to UNNECESSARY risk?We can get enough risk doing the job RIGHT.Wherever possible limit the unneeded exposures and live to pass it on to the next generation.After all,isn't that how WE got here? T.C.

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    Lightbulb We did it to ourselves, AGAIN

    The light bulb icon is the reminder that we are our own worst enemy We continue to do the wrong thing at the wrong time.

    I refer to the weekend moment when the Firefighter was riding on the back of the truck.

    Why is anyone still riding on the back of the truck. No excuses, we have got to stop doing it. It is a dangerous place to be when something happens that is BAD!!

    Ok, you may have to send more trucks to the scene of the emergency or buy new apparatus, but can any department or person afford the cost of the legal action and the emotional trauma that will follow for the death of that single firefighter.

    Years ago 15+ the volunteer department I was in had a firefighter fall off the top of fire truck and to this day that firefighter is still sitting in the wheel chair. To this day I have NEVER been able to go up to the house and say how sorry I am for what happen. I was not even there, but I took it so personal that SAFETY of my firefighter is the MOST IMPORTANT THING I HAVE IN MY HEAD EVERY DAY AT 0800 IN THE AM WHEN I COME ON DUTY AT THE PAID DEPARTMENT THAT I NOW WORK AT FOR THE PAST 11 YEARS!!!!

    I have gone to 2 firefighter funerals in my 23 years of fire service and I want to tell you that I never want to go to another one again ever.

    There was a conscious decision to allow someone to ride the back of the truck. Whether by procedure or 200 years of tradition who knows. There was a conscious decision by the officer to allow the firefighter to get on the back of the truck. There was a conscious decision by the driver to allow the firefighter to get on the back of the truck. And there was a conscious decision by the firefighter to get on the back of the truck. Any one of these could have changed the decision from allowing it to stopped it from happening.

    We must change the pattern of our behavior and start thinking about what things can happen if we stop and turn of our SAFETY FIRST ALL THE TIME part of the brain.

    I am so glad the firefighter is not hurt bad. Best wishes to their recovery!!!!

  17. #17
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    Angry I Disagree........................

    Many of you who read this know me, and know that I am one who stresses safety in our operations. I do take issue with a lot that I have read here. Many of you are very concerned with doing the right thing, and doing it safely, however, a lot of this is emotion ruling the keyboard. There are VALID reasons for people riding the tailboard in 2004. The first is that they have a choice of riding there or not going on the apparatus. Fire Apparatus builders are still delivering NEW 2 man cab vehicles every day. Why? Because that is all some companies can afford. Others buy used trucks that are still built in the same style, only they are older. The Brightest thing said here lately is "Common sense is no longer common" or something close. Therein lies the problem. Firefighters can be taught how to ride the tailboard SAFELY in 2004, but everyone would rather go off on an emotional tirade instead. I may be from one of the most progressive areas of the world, but I last rode the back step in 2003! There are things like safety belts that should be used, but the last word is people have to make do with the best that they can get.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Default Ugh...

    I just scanned these postings and will throw out 2
    quick things. These accidents will continue to
    happen as long as-

    #1. You guys keep saying- "150 years of tradition
    unimpeeded by progress."

    #2. I have been doing this job XX of years...

    Ugh! One day, just one day, someone in here will
    figure out too that leather helmets are just a
    fad...Leather Forever- Along with the neck and
    back pain!

    Ok, hammer me now...Bou
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 05-27-2004 at 04:24 PM.

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    riding on the tailboard of a fire truck going anywhere is a very dangerous and thier is no excuse for it. short and simple

    we preach to people wear you're seat belts and they see us riding on the back of a truck what message are we sending.

    how can a person ride safely on the back of a truck, you have no protection what so ever from the weather or from some fool following to close to the truck and not being able to stop before hitting the truck and who is caught in the middle

    so tell me what brand of saftey harness offers you the protection of riding in a cab or jump seat.

    enough said

    tim h

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    Angry Check The Title Of The Thread............

    This thread is titled "I just don't get it" and it's obvious that a tiny minority don't get it. If you don't have a cab or a jump seat to ride in, you have to ride the step.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Default Re: Ugh...

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    I just scanned these postings and will throw out 2
    quick things. These accidents will continue to
    happen as long as-

    #1. You guys keep saying- "150 years of tradition
    unipeeded by progress."

    #2. You keep beating that old tradition drum.

    Ugh! One day, just one day, someone in here will
    figure out too that leather helmets are just a
    fad...Leather Forever- Along with the neck and
    back pain!

    Ok, hammer me now...Bou
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  22. #22
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    Talking

    Bou - Let me know if you catch anything on this fishing expedition.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  23. #23
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    If you don't have a cab or a jump seat to ride in, you have to ride the step.
    No, you can wait for an apparatus to respond with an available seat or go in your POV. There are some obvious reason they put the "DO not ride on tailboard" plates on the engines.
    The only time i can think of that it's ok is during a parade, but besides that, forget it.
    Scott Maples
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    I am just stopping by for one post as this is too important. Some of you DO NOT GET IT!

    Everyone Goes Home: The Firefighter Life Safety Summit

    On Sept. 11, 2001, 347 firefighters died amid flames and fear and dust and steel when the Twin Towers crashed to the ground. That day brought a focus on the ultimate sacrifice given by the nation's firefighters. But what was obscured that day by the haze of mourning and outrage was the understanding that the line-of-duty deaths that day was unusual only in their number not their occurrence. Firefighters die in the line of duty nearly 100 times a year - every single year - in burning buildings and wildfires and vehicles and training and dozens of other instances. In fact, almost the same number of firefighters have lost their lives since 9-11 as died on that terrible day. And while the toll from 9-11 is set at 347, the toll for fire service as a whole grows and grows.
    As firefighters, we mourn the loss of comrades each year in private, in local ceremonies and at the annual Fallen Firefighters Memorial. The mourning, though, is simply not enough. This past March, a first-of-its-kind Firefighter Life Safety Summit was held in Tampa, Fla. Sponsored by the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation and the U.S. Fire Administration, with the support of Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Homeland Security, the summit brought together more than 200 fire and emergency service representatives from more than 100 organizations and departments. The summit attendees produced a preliminary report that detailed initiatives and recommendations for drastically reducing firefighter fatalities and injuries. This April, a follow-up meeting was held in Arizona to review the report and begin putting action behind the words.
    The momentum is now building toward accomplishing a significant goal -- reducing firefighter deaths by 25 percent within 5 years and 50 percent in 10 years. Take a moment to think about that goal - it means dozens, ultimately hundreds, of men and women will go home safe after their shift. It means they will see their children grow up and their families will have a parent, a sister, an uncle, a son sitting around the Thanksgiving dinner table each year rather than lying in a final resting place. Look at yourself and your department. The lives that are saved may be theirs - or yours.
    Sixteen initiatives came out of the summit. Briefly, they are:
    1. Define and advocate the need for cultural change related to safety, leadership, management and personal responsibility;

    'nuff said. Be safe and get to the retirement I am enjoying so much.

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    HI GEORGE !!!!!!!!!!!!!! glad things are working out for you, hope that you stop back again ! Scott.........if you read the article again, this unit was going to a "wet down". A non-emergent totally arbitrary function........it was not making an emergency response. Harv........I could not disagree more.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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