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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default Critique this sytem

    I was just looking for some insight and ideas on engine operations at structure fires.

    I went to some training last night at a VFD in my area with 2 departments atending. There was a lot of grant items that I helped get that I wanted to get action pictures of and some pistures before it was destroyed/dirty, etc...

    They had new turnouts, new Drager SCBAs, 2 new TICs... My god they looked like a bunch of rookies!!!

    They use a 3 man entry team with a 3 man RIT team. They always take a charged in with them and never leave the line.

    Front man nozzle, second man with tool, third is officer with TIC and in charge of radio coms.

    It just seemed like a realy slow system. Having 3 FFs all moving together and taking the charged line along for the entire seach of the building.

    Are they just rooting to hard in the engine mind set, do they need some trucky concepts applied? It is worth noting that there are no aerial deviced or dedicated truck companies for many many miles in any direction, so the concept of seaching without a charged line is kind of forgien to them I would imagine.

    Oh, and here are some of the pics, the newer turnouts are tan, notice the nice Phenix 1500s with hot shield facshrouds, used for both structure and wildland.
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  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Some more showing off.

    Here is Capn D with his new Chieftan 3200X turnouts, Phenix 1500, Drager PSS100 45 minute, and MSA Evolution 5000 TIC. All made possible by a number of grants, FEMA, private, and state.

    They are very pleased with me.
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    Last edited by SamsonFCDES; 05-26-2004 at 12:14 PM.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    The 3 man entry. Opinions, experiences, is 2 better?
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  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Sorry, but one more photo. It was to dark to take the group shot at the end, so we used one of the TICs. A bullard TI.
    Last edited by SamsonFCDES; 07-28-2004 at 02:08 PM.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    OK, just one more. In they go. They have this old trailer house set up for training purposes. A 3 man team trying to maneuver inside is a bit crowded. Especialy then the tool man is prodding the nozzle man trying to get him to hurry!
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    Last edited by SamsonFCDES; 05-26-2004 at 12:15 PM.
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    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  6. #6
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    In my experience, 3 man NOZZLE crews can be faster as long as the third guy is the door man who humps hose around the corners and through doors. If he just follows the train, he's mostly wasting space.

    As far as search purposes go, leave the nozzle to the engine crew. You will be twice as fast without it, if not more. Also, a 3rd man on a search can be faster if: it is a large, open space and you practice with three regularly. If it is a small structure, the third guy will probably get in the way. And, no matter what if you don't practice doing a three man search, it may or may not be faster.

    Eric

  7. #7
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    this was just discussed here, in terms of your original question.
    http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...threadid=59923
    It became kinda of apparent in the POC/Volly system that you may not know when the next "unit" will arrive and most do not have a truck available. So where in big cities there is a truck co. responding on the first alarm it may be prudent and accepted to go in without a line, but in most instances this is how departments operate due to experience, manpower, and other units responding.
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    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  8. #8
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    If you're the first due department, whatcha gonna do, search the house and have a RIT standby, and not put any water on the fire? How many tools do you really need on a typical rural/suburban single family home or barn?

    It sounds like 2 issues.

    One, you only have one guy advancing the line, and that's tough once you start going around corners.

    Two, they're not sure what they're supposed to do.

    Focus on getting a hose in operation. Remember you often need ventilation to get that hose in operation quickly!

    Here's how I'd lay out six guys:
    Interior Officer -- TIC, maybe a tool, find fire & direct hose team to it.
    Nozzle & Backup man -- advance line & get it in operation. Nothing but hose or brass in their hands.
    Doorman -- layout line outside, feed it in, once line is working bring tools up and join the officer. Usually in SFDs, barns, etc you don't find many locked interior doors, and I'd rather have water waiting for a tool to open a void or room, than have an opened void and be waiting for water!
    Outside man #1 -- horizontal vent, ppv, force other doors
    Outside man #2 -- stretch backup line, help Outside #1 in his tasks if needed, takeover for Doorman. Two outside guys team up to advance the backup line if the interior guys get in deep trouble. Pump op & OIC help that iRIT move the backup line inside.

    I'd love to have the doorman dedicated to the door, and a toolman who is along side the officer on the attack team. Plus a dedicated backup line/RIT crew in addition to 2 outside "truckies." But if you only have six people, you have to use them as effectively as possible -- not have three trying to do it all (force entry, advance line, search, while neglecting to vent) while three others are jumping up a down to keep their PASS alarms from activating.
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  9. #9
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    First lest define ENTRY team .. to me that is a fire attack team.
    In my experiences (volunteer) a three man hose team can be very effective, especailly in the daytime hours when you may not have the luxury of full staffed 2nd & 3rd due companies.
    As previously mentioned the third man can hump hose (which is especially important when you start dealing with 2nd floors or basements), can act as the tool man for either forcible entry OR opening walls/ceilings, or can peel off and conduct rapid primary searches as the line advances (again daytime a search team may be delayed due to manpower issues).
    The other thing it allows for , and to me this is very important, it allows the officer to be freed up from a task (such as humping hose) and allows him to concentrate on the surroundings, which will let him make better deciscions and give him the chance to relay additional information to command.
    The driver can perform outside ventilation as needed or even assist at the door once the pump is set-up.

    As far as a hoseline for a search team ... that was in another thread just a few days ago.

    Just my thoughts.

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