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  1. #1
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    Default Pressure controls

    Curious...

    During training the other day for our industrial brigade, a guy from the digital group asked "why don't we just have a keypad to enter the pressure?"

    I've talked to the manufacturer and they say it's easy to do, but the biggest reason it's not out there is because we (the fire service that actually does most of the innovation in fire apparatus design) have not asked for it.

    What are your thoughts on using a keypad to type in your desired PDP?

    Your preset is at 150psi, but you only want/need 135psi PDP. Would you like to be able to just type in 135 on a 10 digit keypad and hit enter? Or would you just prefer to ramp it up like you do now?

    How about a keypad that could switch from PSI to GPM?

    (You'd sill be able to use the INC, DEC and IDLE buttons if you want.)

    Scott
    www.gvfd.org


  2. #2
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    My only devil's advocate is, "What about typos?"

    Somebody asks for you to go from 150psi to 135psi, it gets fat fingered to 235psi until you realize it and increment it back down.
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  3. #3
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    I fear it would lead to political correctness types trying to get unqualified types on the pump panel. Rather like the picture keys at McD's, of course they would have to be able to reconize numbers.

  4. #4
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Keypads? Numbers? Shoot, I thought you just cranked it up until his feet came off the ground, then backed her down a little.



    A little more serious thoughts...
    -Salt air intrusion to corrode the number pad. We have a few buildings in my town that had exterior pads for entry, they stopped working after a short time out in the weather.
    -More Electronics.

    Concept wise, why not? I would assume it would be same issues that arise with digital pressure governors that are already on the market. Don't know, we don't use one of them either.
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  5. #5
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    I'm with Dal on the people with sausage fingers having some issues.

    We have 1 engine in the city that has the Fire Commander system. I'm just leary about what happens when the electronics take a crap. Just make sure there is a back-up in case your electronic controls fail........

  6. #6
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    I echo '77's statement...........one more thing to booger up a perfectly good fire truck. Just because technology exists doesnt mean you need to use it. Or if you choose that make sure that you have a manual or back up in place. We had our first out engine fail at a fire once when it would go into pump from the auto tranny. I asked doesnt it have a manual way to engage it like the 1984 model ? Nope ..............sure doesnt ........had to pay to get one put in.....you would think that WOULD be an NFPA spec thing ...but it isnt.
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  7. #7
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    Something similar in my area. A local FD got a truck thats mostly computerized and the pumps are as well as far as I know. Whenever it rains or if the tanks form condensation the whole truck fries when the water hits all the computer parts on board. It is out of service more than it is in from what I am told. Water, FD, and PC'S on trucks dont seem like the best combo.
    Mike
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  8. #8
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    We were really sketchy about the computerized fire commander set up and checked with the builder on having a back twist type or vernier throttle in case the electronic one shot craps. The thing is, they havn't made a non-electronic one for several years now so you couldn't have the twist type the the fire commander as they both work out the same port on the engine using the same electronics for the most part. This was Hale/class 1 so I can't speak for others but it seems like the companies are forcing the hands on this, even if we don't like it.

  9. #9
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Hehe 77,what do you think your vernier is doing on one of the "new" electronic engines?You're just tellin' FRED (Fabulous rediculous electronic device)to give a couple more acorns to the squirrels.Makes no difference if it's keypad or twist,it's all drive by wire and instant idle if the confuser doesn't recognise the input.Better have a couple old mechanical spare trucks around 'cause sooner or later all of this new stuff's going to take a dump on you.I make a small fortune draggin' it back to the garage.Remember the good old days of an old ratchet throttle?Gone forever.T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 06-07-2004 at 08:02 AM.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    We had a discussion about the "electronic" throttle controls on a demo model shown by the builder of our engines. The old-timer (don't get me wrong, I really like and respect the guy) with me made it very clear we wouldn't go with the nifty electronic throttle sitting there on the panel and the salesguy said they'd be happy to provide us with the conventional "wheel" throttle for another $600. They made the unit to look just like the older ones, but all it does is talk to the computers in the same way as the push button units, just a different interface. The oldtimer's opinion suddenly changed about having to spec an older style throttle.

    Really need to get to work on changing some other ideas (on issues bigger than that), but one at a time....

  11. #11
    Forum Member spearsm's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, don't get me started about the throttle on a Waterous we have....If you attempted to put it into pump with the throttle anything other than all the way down, it would not throttle up..You had to shut the truck completely down and restart. Vibration from going to a fire or testing the truck would be enough to move it off "zero". Makes for a sure fire temper tantrum. Needles to say we replaced that booger!
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  12. #12
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Good news Spears,they know about that 'lil glitch and there's an upgrade for it.Can't remember if it's a software or hardware change but there is a cure.Doubt it's free though.By any chance is the control Fire research?I think the salesman for FR was the one that told me,I could be mistaken.T.C.

  13. #13
    Forum Member CAPN22's Avatar
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    Originally posted by spearsm
    Oh yeah, don't get me started about the throttle on a Waterous we have....If you attempted to put it into pump with the throttle anything other than all the way down, it would not throttle up..You had to shut the truck completely down and restart. Vibration from going to a fire or testing the truck would be enough to move it off "zero". Makes for a sure fire temper tantrum. Needles to say we replaced that booger!
    This was and is a classic problem with the CAT 3126 engine.

    A safety feature in the electronics regarding throttle position. Caused the cobination of creating a new interface (Vernier) style and make it look old, If a electronic PSG had been used that problem would have been eliminated. And the "Waterous" pump has nothing to do with the throttle control. To bad, You now doubt took a $$$ hit selling the unit when a $1000 retro fit would have corrected the issue.

    Also as far as back up's. If the PSG or throttle controls fail, your cab foot throttle will reactivate.

  14. #14
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CAPN22
    Also as far as back up's. If the PSG or throttle controls fail, your cab foot throttle will reactivate.
    ?

    With which engine, pressure governor, and pump combination?

    As far as I know, when the pump interlock is engaged, the cab throttle is disengaged.
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  15. #15
    Forum Member CAPN22's Avatar
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    I know with the Fire Commander, and Captain Series for sure, Detroit, Cummmins and International engines for sure. That I have worked with.

    The ECM's will only accept the aux throttle if it recieves a proper signal input. That the problem with Cat engines and the Cummins is the same. However the Cummins is no at fussy as the Cats are.

    If the ECU doesn't see a signal you go to foot feed. It defaults to the foot throttle.

    Try it. simply unplug your psg and engage the pump. or engage the pump then unplug the psg (simulated loss of signal). Your truck should flip back to the foot feed.

    As these units are plug and play for the most part into the ECU's all should work the same.

    Can I say this accross the Board, not really as I haven't tested every single unit out there and some may not default due to different ways of hooking up the systems. Test and find out for sure.

    Both of our front line rigs due this 1998 Cummins ISC Frightliner (By Superior E-One). And our 2003 Cummins ISC Spartan (By E-One Canada).

  16. #16
    Forum Member spearsm's Avatar
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    Sorry guys, my post my have been misleading..the Waterous pump is not the issue, just the throttler controler. As far as the manufacturer (on the booger), I am drawing a blank right now. Yes, in a jam like this, you can put a boot onthe accel. in the cab. The first time it happened, we didn't have a clue what was going on and proceeded to use the cab throttle. We later was told by others in the county what they had learned from theirs. We contacted the company from which we bought the apparatus and they told us, "yeah, we have been hearing about this problem." I believe we raised enough cain that we got something done(and I will leave it at that). The replacement throttler always goes for "zero" when disengaged. So far, it has worked like a champ. I will try to get the info on the throttler tommorrow night during Maintenance.
    YGBSM!
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