1. #76
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    Originally posted by jasper45
    By the way, I am an 11 year IAFF member, and the department I work for is a "closed" shop. That means I don't have a choice on whether or not I can be a member of the union; because of that fact I choose to be active in it's political process. That is the only option I have. It is also the only way I can change what I don't like. I understand why the IAFF supports the candidate they do, but I still get to vote my ideology.
    While I believe you and I would have different perspectives on all those you mention, I respect your opinions, and your actions.

    I am a 12 yr IAFF member. And I have the same belief you do as well. I vote my ideology and not necessarily the party line.

    I also admire your sense of committment because I do not believe in 'closed' shops.

  2. #77
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    Nail200 you never answered my questions ...

    Are you a IAFF member and how long?
    Are you active in your local?
    Do you pay into a PAC?
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
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    Default Socialist leadership

    It doesn't take long to wrack up some replies to a post around here. I'm glad we're having such a good conversation about all this.
    I don't have time to reply to all the points but I'll hit a couple.

    Yes I did serve from 85-93. Infantry and Mil. Intel. I served during the first Gulf War. I did go to the recruiters office shortly after we kicked this thing off. They say I'm too old.
    I'll do my part here at home. WHEN I REFER TO WE, I'm refering to us as Americans. I know it's nuieve but I kinda feel we're in this thing together. I understand there are Americans that would rather see the troops come home as falures rather than dead. Speaking as an old soldier I'd rather die and have victory. You guys are mimicking the hollywood crowd of the sixties. Bob Hope was denegrated and frowned upon for supporting the troops. When asked why he supported them he'd say, "Because I want them to Win." IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT THE MISSION YOU DON'T SUPPORT THE TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!

    This would be a good place for you to learn the end game of your leadership. He's held in high regard in this article along with some of your buddies in government.

    "Many Democratic Socialists are also members of the Democratic Party. Until recent years, the main aim of DSA was to convert the Democratic Party into a social democratic organization. However, since the Democratic Party has been dominated by more centrist individuals such as Bill Clinton and Al Gore, many DSA members are trying to move the party away from this goal. Three DSA members are currently in the United States Congress: Bernie Sanders (I-VT), Danny Davis (D-IL), and Major Owens (D-NY). Ron Dellums (D-CA), who retired from the Congress in 1997, and the current president of the AFL-CIO, John Sweeney are also DSA members." Taken from the site below.

    http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en...f_america.html

    Here you can read about your leader talking about starting the Socialist Labor Party. This article is in the Militant, a radical socialist group. Look towards the bottom of the page Sweeny. You do know that John Sweeny is the president of the AFL CIO and that Harold Schaitberger is right there with him.

    http://www.themilitant.com/1996/6027/6027_21.html
    Last edited by Nail200; 06-27-2004 at 08:22 PM.

  4. #79
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    Default E40 You're not reading!

    I did answer your question

    Local 975
    10 years
    Local PAC contributer

    Quit because I won't support the National.

    I believe we have some of the guys at your firehouse supporting the President.
    Last edited by Nail200; 06-27-2004 at 10:32 PM.

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    Default Union Membership

    I'll answer the question about being an IAFF member.

    I "WAS" an IAFF member for 26 1/2 years up until this past March. I quit because this supposed BROTHERHOOD has become a sham and a shill for the Democratic party, like any of the other AFL-CIO affiliates. Any of you that think the IAFF is a democracy you need to really look closer at the facts.
    Harold Schaitberger admitted in a Seattle Times interview that "we never really considered" endorsing President Bush for re-election. Why Not ??? Why not find out what the MEMBERS want ?? Why dismiss it out of hand without even seeing what the MEMBERS think ?? I'll tell you why.........Schaitberger had already promised to deliver the IAFF to the Democrats for 2004 after the 2000 election, where again, the MEMBERS were never asked whether they supported Gore. The 2002 IAFF convention was a set-up to trash the President.
    The endorsement was left to Schaitberger and his board. His excuse that the membership was "extensively polled" is a LIE, plain and simple.
    After paying dues to this organization for 26 1/2 years I wrote to the IAFF four times early this year. I had a simple request. After seeing Schaitberger at almost every turn with Kerry on the campaign trail, I asked if his salary, travel and expenses were being paid with dues money, Pac money or Kerry campaign money. I think this was a reasonable request. FOUR TIMES I wrote them..........and ZERO answers. I explained that I had been a member since 1977, and thought I was deserving of an answer. NOTHING. I wrote a fifth and sixth time........not being so diplomatic, and explaining that I would be leaving the organization if I could not get at least some kind of answer to my question. Again.....NOTHING.
    THIS, is the BROTHERHOOD of which you speak. They want only one thing from you........your dues money. They could care less what the average firefighter on the street wants or thinks. Would someone explain to me how Harold Schaitberger is worth a 211K plus salary, not including benefits and expenses ?? So I quit to take from them the only thing they wanted in the first place........my money.

    RRK

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    Default Harold the Lying weasel

    I also wanted to point out that NOBODY so far is coming to Schaitberger's defense on the issue of "extensive polling" of the membership. That's because it is a LIE. You know it, and I know it.
    The question that you should be asking yourselves is WHY he has to lie about this..........

    RRK

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    After paying dues to this organization for 26 1/2 years I wrote to the IAFF four times early this year.
    Who did you write to? Did you talk to your Union President? IAFF VP?

  8. #83
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    Default You deserve an answer!

    You do deserve an answer RRK. It's the least they could do after all those years of support.

    When I hear these guys talk about all the national has done for us. They don't mention the millions we give the national each year.

    I don't owe the National a d#$% thing.

    My local has done some good work for us. The National has turned into a political entity into itself. They have a different perspective on government than I do. They don't seek to represent the membership. They want the membership to serve them.

    I can't in good conscience supply any more of my money to such an organization.

  9. #84
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    psssst.....It's INTERNATIONAL

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    Default Well men...

    This is the United States, where we have a right to vote for whomever we choose to. The fact that I am an independent voter and vote for candidates on both sides,some of whom are democrats does not make me a "socialist". Just like voting for a republican dosent make me a "fascist". I take great offense to the notion if I am less then thrilled by Bush, I am somehow less of an American. It's offensive for both sides of this issue to think I dont support our country, our troops and want great things for the United States based on my choice of candidate. If you choose to believe in everything one party, one labor organization or one person says, then you are a fool. Because no one entity is always right. Firefighters aren't dummies. When we go into the voting booth we are perfectly capable of voting who we think is best. The INTERNATIONAL has done many great things for professional firefighters. If you are that unhappy with OUR UNION, dont let the door hit you on your rear end on the way out of it.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Default Union Happiness

    If you are HAPPY with YOUR UNION........don't let YOUR rear end get in the way of your thought process.....

    RRK

    And by the way.....I was a dues paying member of YOUR union for 26 1/2 years. Until YOU get to where you have seen as much of that organization and how they work as I have, and have as much of YOUR money invested.......don't tell me to not let the door hit me in the rear as I leave it.
    Last edited by RedRoadKing; 06-27-2004 at 09:36 PM.

  12. #87
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    Default "INTERNATIONAL"

    Yeah, Nail........it is the "INTERNATIONAL" Association of Firefighters.

    Can't you see that some of these posts are from the French and German members ?????


    RRK

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    Ouch. I am sure your a real treat to work with. Spare me the martyr act. And P.S. it's OUR union...Minus YOU of course.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Default Re:Ouch

    If you will notice, I was careful to point out it is YOUR union. And you have the same philosophy as they........Leave, we don't care.
    You can have it.

    Minus Me ??? My gain........your loss.
    And....you forgot the most important part. Minus my $$$

    No Martyr.......just Smartyr.

    RRK
    Last edited by RedRoadKing; 06-27-2004 at 10:29 PM.

  15. #90
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    Default Re: Re:Ouch

    Originally posted by RedRoadKing
    Minus Me ??? My gain........your loss.
    And....you forgot the most important part. Minus my $$$

    RRK
    And we'll manage just fine. See ya.

  16. #91
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    Default Re: Harold the Lying weasel

    Originally posted by RedRoadKing
    I also wanted to point out that NOBODY so far is coming to Schaitberger's defense on the issue of "extensive polling" of the membership. That's because it is a LIE. You know it, and I know it.
    The question that you should be asking yourselves is WHY he has to lie about this..........

    RRK
    I don't believe a poll was done. The IAFF is democracy in its purest form. If I don't believe that I am represented I have the ability to maintain that my representatives to the upcoming convention in Boston does vote for the person whom I believe will properly represent me.

    Sorry if you don't understand how these types of organizations work.

  17. #92
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    Originally posted by Nail200
    Bob Hope was denegrated and frowned upon for supporting the troops. When asked why he supported them he'd say, "Because I want them to Win." IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT THE MISSION YOU DON'T SUPPORT THE TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!
    More right wing BS. I guess Trent Lott never heard of Bob Hope when he said this:

    "We can support our troops without supporting our President"
    --Trent Lott (R-MS)(1999)

    As I have pointed out on a previous post. Numerous conservatives blasted Clinton during the operations in the Balkans and during Operation Desert Fox.

    Try as you might. Your conservative heroes already poisoned that well.

    If Trent Lott (R-MS) can do it, I can support the troops without supporting the president.

  18. #93
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    Default Lets make sure I understand you

    Lets make sure I understand what you're saying

    Your workers "rights" and a drive to push our government to a more socialized system is more important to you than

    2nd amendment rights
    Freedom to own and control property
    Lower taxes
    Reduce burdens on small business
    Keep marriage between a man and a woman
    Stopping late term abortion
    Keeping religion in our culture
    Reforming Welfare
    Promoting a friendly environment for corprate America in order to keep jobs at home
    Free Trade
    Making military strength a priority
    Making our intelligence services a priority
    Advancing our military technology

  19. #94
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    Default

    Originally posted by CollegeBuff


    Put "Clinton Missed Bin Laden" into Google and see what you find.

    I only say that to save myself the time (and FH.com the space) of the thousand or so links I found when I did it.

    Put in George Bush went AWOL or George Bush Lies. See how many hits you get.


    Wow, a Clinton staffer said it, so it MUST be true.....

    As opposed to someone with no connection to the administration other than he donated a lot of money. Conversely. Should I believe everything coming from Bush staffers?

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    I've been paying my IAFF dues proudly for over 17 years.This August will be the 3rd IAFF Convention that I will attend.I've been to Legislation Conferences in DC.I've been to A.L.T.S. twice.I've also visited the International Headquarters in DC.

    Please don't think I don't know how this Union works.

  21. #96
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    Default Re: Lets make sure I understand you

    Originally posted by Nail200
    Lets make sure I understand what you're saying

    Your workers "rights" and a drive to push our government to a more socialized system is more important to you than

    2nd amendment rights
    Not a firefighter issue. Guns never put food on my table or helped me earn a living. Maybe things are different in TX.


    Freedom to own and control property
    I can do that now, and will be able to do that in the future. We're just weird in CA that way. Maybe things are different in TX.

    Lower taxes
    Not if we keep hemorraging red ink. Even Ronald Reagan had enough sense to raise taxes when he realized his fiscal policy would have disastrous long term consequences.

    Reduce burdens on small business
    Like which ones?

    Keep marriage between a man and a woman
    Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Maybe things are different in TX.

    Stopping late term abortion
    Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Maybe things are different in TX.

    Keeping religion in our culture
    Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Maybe things are different in TX.

    Reforming Welfare
    Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Maybe things are different in TX.

    Promoting a friendly environment for corprate America in order to Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Given the recent corporate meltdowns, do you trust this group to police itself? I bet you could call over to Houston and talk to some former workers at Enron who might have a different perspective.

    keep jobs at home
    Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. So you agree the outsourcing that has occurred is bad? I have not heard any desire to change course on that issue. Other than to give Homeland Security contracts to companies organized offshore who don't pay taxes.

    Free Trade
    Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. I like Free Trade. Though not in its current form. Foreign nations have sweat shop labor with zero enviormental regulations. Puts American companies at a huge disadvantage. I would like to see more of an even playing field that bring 'them' up to our level, and not 'us' down. Maybe things are in different in TX.

    Making military strength a priority
    Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. How much more of a priority do you need? How much is enough?

    Making our intelligence services a priority
    See above.

    Advancing our military technology
    See above.
    It is now clear why you dislike Schaitberger. He didn't use any of the issues you believe to be important. Had he taken into account all the issues you put forth, the divisivness with the IAFF would be even more acrimonious.
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-28-2004 at 08:49 AM.

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    Lightbulb Rant: on!

    Children....

    We can argue this point until you all hold your breath and turn a deep shade of blue.

    We can quote right wing and left wing websites up the wazoo.

    Politicians on both side of the aisle have praised us and screwed us at the same time.

    If you do not want to join the IAFF, that's your perogative...but do not complain about wages and benefits that the Local negotiated if you feel that they are not enough (I haven't seen a jake yet who complained that we got paid too much!).

    If you can't see past the things that the IAFF has done to make firefighters (career, call and volunteer) safer (better equipment, health and safety issues, bloodborne pathogen information and screening, hazmat training, etc,) that is your problem.

    If all you see is politics... get a freakin' life. The fire doesn't give a fat rats rump if you are democrat, republican, liberal, conservative communist, socialist, a green or any other political affiliation.

    "Brotherhood" is not a political affiliation! Those that use that as the litmus test I cannot trust my life too...and neither should you!

    Remember...when you go into the voting booth and make the line through the arrow, make an X in the box, punch out the chad or pull the lever, it is you who makes the decision...not the Local, not the International, not the Republicans, Democrats, independents or any other left nut/right nut political organization.

    Okay..rant off
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Default Re: Rant: on!

    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    Children....
    If you do not want to join the IAFF, that's your perogative...but do not complain about wages and benefits that the Local negotiated if you feel that they are not enough (I haven't seen a jake yet who complained that we got paid too much!).
    Perfect.

  24. #99
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    My personal opinion is that the IAFF decision to back kerry is being overlooked here. Those of us who recieve our newsletter from the international recieved a print explanation as to why they chose kerry over the President. Its easy to find, it was the first article, the one straight from the union president. In it he explained the issues that were pertinent to the international; not necessarily to me or anyone else, but to the union itself. The union at this point does not take into consideration alot of issues that are very important to us as individuals. That is the differance, they worry about strict labor issues. The international feels at this point that kerry would be a better choice for us than the President. That is the basics, to debate about other aspects of their endorsement is somewhat futile. They (international) never took an opinion on capital punishment, or gun control or abortion; that is to say other than the candidate they chose to endorse, that aspect ultimately is all encompassing. They only worry about issues they feel directly affect the wages, hours and working conditions of their members.To address the other issue mentioned about whether or not a poll was conducted to feel members out about their wants as far as an endorsement; I can only say this, I was never asked by the international. My local did ask me though. My local asked all 1200 of our uniformed members, and if they chose to vote their voice was heard at the local level.I just feel that by debating other issues about the international we are covering too much ground here. Simply I think they just don't care about other issues; as a union that is. There has been good debate here, but if it is strictly about "firefighters betrayed" lets just address the issues about labor, or other firefighter issues. Just one humble opinion.

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    Default

    I would just like to throw out a couple of thoughts here.
    First off, so there is no confusion over where my politics are, let me say that most of the time, they fall to Republican candidates, not because of any party philosophy in my mind, but because the candidate that happens to share my vision is a Republican. Call it "happenstance".
    I support President George Bush. Sure, he has committed a few blunders that I would attribute to his on-the-job training. Sometimes, it takes a second term to get it right.
    But, to be honest; John Kerry (or maybe it's his wife) scares the hell out of me.
    I really have only one strong view in my support of President Bush vs. John Kerry and that is: I support a stronger military defense and a stronger homeland defense. If that can be accomplished through public safety grants, etc., then I am all for it.
    And if any organization that I belonged to made the blanket assertion that it supported John Kerry, I would take the appropriate steps to inform the public otherwise. Unions can be very persuasive in their efforts for a particular candidate. They will come out with a "slate" of candidates that they would like to see you support. Far too many members support a candidate simply because their union says to without really looking at the history. That's their business and their right.
    But don't take the "one size fits all" mentality where a yellow shirt means that ALL firefighters or ALL IAFF firefighters support John Kerry.
    Nothing could be farther from the truth.
    And people don't campaign for a candidate simply because they share a vision. They do it for the payback when the time comes.
    We won't see this play out, because like it or not, President Bush is on his way to a second term.
    CR
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