Firefighters Betrayed

[RedRoadKing]

I also wanted to point out that NOBODY so far is coming to Schaitberger's defense on the issue of "extensive polling" of the membership. That's because it is a LIE. You know it, and I know it.
The question that you should be asking yourselves is WHY he has to lie about this..........

RRK

[Parrothead]

After paying dues to this organization for 26 1/2 years I wrote to the IAFF four times early this year.

Who did you write to? Did you talk to your Union President? IAFF VP?

[Nail200]

You do deserve an answer RRK. It's the least they could do after all those years of support.

When I hear these guys talk about all the national has done for us. They don't mention the millions we give the national each year.

I don't owe the National a d#$% thing.

My local has done some good work for us. The National has turned into a political entity into itself. They have a different perspective on government than I do. They don't seek to represent the membership. They want the membership to serve them.

I can't in good conscience supply any more of my money to such an organization.

[Parrothead]

psssst.....It's INTERNATIONAL

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

This is the United States, where we have a right to vote for whomever we choose to. The fact that I am an independent voter and vote for candidates on both sides,some of whom are democrats does not make me a "socialist". Just like voting for a republican dosent make me a "fascist". I take great offense to the notion if I am less then thrilled by Bush, I am somehow less of an American. It's offensive for both sides of this issue to think I dont support our country, our troops and want great things for the United States based on my choice of candidate. If you choose to believe in everything one party, one labor organization or one person says, then you are a fool. Because no one entity is always right. Firefighters aren't dummies. When we go into the voting booth we are perfectly capable of voting who we think is best. The INTERNATIONAL has done many great things for professional firefighters. If you are that unhappy with OUR UNION, dont let the door hit you on your rear end on the way out of it.

[RedRoadKing]

If you are HAPPY with YOUR UNION........don't let YOUR rear end get in the way of your thought process.....

RRK

And by the way.....I was a dues paying member of YOUR union for 26 1/2 years. Until YOU get to where you have seen as much of that organization and how they work as I have, and have as much of YOUR money invested.......don't tell me to not let the door hit me in the rear as I leave it.

[RedRoadKing]

Yeah, Nail........it is the "INTERNATIONAL" Association of Firefighters.

Can't you see that some of these posts are from the French and German members ?????


RRK

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Ouch. I am sure your a real treat to work with. Spare me the martyr act. And P.S. it's OUR union...Minus YOU of course.

[RedRoadKing]

If you will notice, I was careful to point out it is YOUR union. And you have the same philosophy as they........Leave, we don't care.
You can have it.

Minus Me ??? My gain........your loss.
And....you forgot the most important part. Minus my $$$

No Martyr.......just Smartyr.

RRK

[scfire86]

Originally posted by RedRoadKing
Minus Me ??? My gain........your loss.
And....you forgot the most important part. Minus my $$$

RRK

And we'll manage just fine. See ya.

[scfire86]

Originally posted by RedRoadKing
I also wanted to point out that NOBODY so far is coming to Schaitberger's defense on the issue of "extensive polling" of the membership. That's because it is a LIE. You know it, and I know it.
The question that you should be asking yourselves is WHY he has to lie about this..........

RRK

I don't believe a poll was done. The IAFF is democracy in its purest form. If I don't believe that I am represented I have the ability to maintain that my representatives to the upcoming convention in Boston does vote for the person whom I believe will properly represent me.

Sorry if you don't understand how these types of organizations work.

[scfire86]

Originally posted by Nail200
Bob Hope was denegrated and frowned upon for supporting the troops. When asked why he supported them he'd say, "Because I want them to Win." IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT THE MISSION YOU DON'T SUPPORT THE TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!

More right wing BS. I guess Trent Lott never heard of Bob Hope when he said this:

"We can support our troops without supporting our President"
--Trent Lott (R-MS)(1999)

As I have pointed out on a previous post. Numerous conservatives blasted Clinton during the operations in the Balkans and during Operation Desert Fox.

Try as you might. Your conservative heroes already poisoned that well.

If Trent Lott (R-MS) can do it, I can support the troops without supporting the president.

[Nail200]

Lets make sure I understand what you're saying

Your workers "rights" and a drive to push our government to a more socialized system is more important to you than

2nd amendment rights
Freedom to own and control property
Lower taxes
Reduce burdens on small business
Keep marriage between a man and a woman
Stopping late term abortion
Keeping religion in our culture
Reforming Welfare
Promoting a friendly environment for corprate America in order to keep jobs at home
Free Trade
Making military strength a priority
Making our intelligence services a priority
Advancing our military technology

[scfire86]

Originally posted by CollegeBuff


Put "Clinton Missed Bin Laden" into Google and see what you find.

I only say that to save myself the time (and FH.com the space) of the thousand or so links I found when I did it.

Put in George Bush went AWOL or George Bush Lies. See how many hits you get.


Wow, a Clinton staffer said it, so it MUST be true.....

As opposed to someone with no connection to the administration other than he donated a lot of money. Conversely. Should I believe everything coming from Bush staffers?

[Parrothead]

I've been paying my IAFF dues proudly for over 17 years.This August will be the 3rd IAFF Convention that I will attend.I've been to Legislation Conferences in DC.I've been to A.L.T.S. twice.I've also visited the International Headquarters in DC.

Please don't think I don't know how this Union works.

[scfire86]

Originally posted by Nail200
Lets make sure I understand what you're saying

Your workers "rights" and a drive to push our government to a more socialized system is more important to you than

2nd amendment rights
Not a firefighter issue. Guns never put food on my table or helped me earn a living. Maybe things are different in TX.


Freedom to own and control property
I can do that now, and will be able to do that in the future. We're just weird in CA that way. Maybe things are different in TX.

Lower taxes
Not if we keep hemorraging red ink. Even Ronald Reagan had enough sense to raise taxes when he realized his fiscal policy would have disastrous long term consequences.

Reduce burdens on small business
Like which ones?

Keep marriage between a man and a woman
Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Maybe things are different in TX.

Stopping late term abortion
Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Maybe things are different in TX.

Keeping religion in our culture
Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Maybe things are different in TX.

Reforming Welfare
Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Maybe things are different in TX.

Promoting a friendly environment for corprate America in order to Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. Given the recent corporate meltdowns, do you trust this group to police itself? I bet you could call over to Houston and talk to some former workers at Enron who might have a different perspective.

keep jobs at home
Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. So you agree the outsourcing that has occurred is bad? I have not heard any desire to change course on that issue. Other than to give Homeland Security contracts to companies organized offshore who don't pay taxes.

Free Trade
Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. I like Free Trade. Though not in its current form. Foreign nations have sweat shop labor with zero enviormental regulations. Puts American companies at a huge disadvantage. I would like to see more of an even playing field that bring 'them' up to our level, and not 'us' down. Maybe things are in different in TX.

Making military strength a priority
Not a firefighter issue. That issue has never put food on my table. How much more of a priority do you need? How much is enough?

Making our intelligence services a priority
See above.

Advancing our military technology
See above.

It is now clear why you dislike Schaitberger. He didn't use any of the issues you believe to be important. Had he taken into account all the issues you put forth, the divisivness with the IAFF would be even more acrimonious.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Children....

We can argue this point until you all hold your breath and turn a deep shade of blue.

We can quote right wing and left wing websites up the wazoo.

Politicians on both side of the aisle have praised us and screwed us at the same time.

If you do not want to join the IAFF, that's your perogative...but do not complain about wages and benefits that the Local negotiated if you feel that they are not enough (I haven't seen a jake yet who complained that we got paid too much!).

If you can't see past the things that the IAFF has done to make firefighters (career, call and volunteer) safer (better equipment, health and safety issues, bloodborne pathogen information and screening, hazmat training, etc,) that is your problem.

If all you see is politics... get a freakin' life. The fire doesn't give a fat rats rump if you are democrat, republican, liberal, conservative communist, socialist, a green or any other political affiliation.

"Brotherhood" is not a political affiliation! Those that use that as the litmus test I cannot trust my life too...and neither should you!

Remember...when you go into the voting booth and make the line through the arrow, make an X in the box, punch out the chad or pull the lever, it is you who makes the decision...not the Local, not the International, not the Republicans, Democrats, independents or any other left nut/right nut political organization.

Okay..rant off

[scfire86]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
Children....
If you do not want to join the IAFF, that's your perogative...but do not complain about wages and benefits that the Local negotiated if you feel that they are not enough (I haven't seen a jake yet who complained that we got paid too much!).

Perfect.

[Jasper 45]

My personal opinion is that the IAFF decision to back kerry is being overlooked here. Those of us who recieve our newsletter from the international recieved a print explanation as to why they chose kerry over the President. Its easy to find, it was the first article, the one straight from the union president. In it he explained the issues that were pertinent to the international; not necessarily to me or anyone else, but to the union itself. The union at this point does not take into consideration alot of issues that are very important to us as individuals. That is the differance, they worry about strict labor issues. The international feels at this point that kerry would be a better choice for us than the President. That is the basics, to debate about other aspects of their endorsement is somewhat futile. They (international) never took an opinion on capital punishment, or gun control or abortion; that is to say other than the candidate they chose to endorse, that aspect ultimately is all encompassing. They only worry about issues they feel directly affect the wages, hours and working conditions of their members.To address the other issue mentioned about whether or not a poll was conducted to feel members out about their wants as far as an endorsement; I can only say this, I was never asked by the international. My local did ask me though. My local asked all 1200 of our uniformed members, and if they chose to vote their voice was heard at the local level.I just feel that by debating other issues about the international we are covering too much ground here. Simply I think they just don't care about other issues; as a union that is. There has been good debate here, but if it is strictly about "firefighters betrayed" lets just address the issues about labor, or other firefighter issues. Just one humble opinion.

[ChiefReason]

I would just like to throw out a couple of thoughts here.
First off, so there is no confusion over where my politics are, let me say that most of the time, they fall to Republican candidates, not because of any party philosophy in my mind, but because the candidate that happens to share my vision is a Republican. Call it "happenstance".
I support President George Bush. Sure, he has committed a few blunders that I would attribute to his on-the-job training. Sometimes, it takes a second term to get it right.
But, to be honest; John Kerry (or maybe it's his wife) scares the hell out of me.
I really have only one strong view in my support of President Bush vs. John Kerry and that is: I support a stronger military defense and a stronger homeland defense. If that can be accomplished through public safety grants, etc., then I am all for it.
And if any organization that I belonged to made the blanket assertion that it supported John Kerry, I would take the appropriate steps to inform the public otherwise. Unions can be very persuasive in their efforts for a particular candidate. They will come out with a "slate" of candidates that they would like to see you support. Far too many members support a candidate simply because their union says to without really looking at the history. That's their business and their right.
But don't take the "one size fits all" mentality where a yellow shirt means that ALL firefighters or ALL IAFF firefighters support John Kerry.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
And people don't campaign for a candidate simply because they share a vision. They do it for the payback when the time comes.
We won't see this play out, because like it or not, President Bush is on his way to a second term.
CR