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  1. #1
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    Default Firefighters Betrayed

    This is an article of mine. If you are like minded please check out our Website www.firefightersforbush.com

    Firefighters Betrayed
    Adam Kinnon

    As we enter this political season, conservative firefighters are watching the International Association of Firefighters, AFL-CIO, march down the war path sporting Firefighter for Kerry T-shirts and waving their yellow signs. The national union, who openly declares 87 percent of their membership is moderate conservative, seems to care little about their concerns and political leanings. They eagerly declare that their 263,000 member union supports Senator Kerry. They claim this endorsement was given after extensive polling of the membership. It’s strange that we at www.firefightersforbush.com haven’t identified a single local member or union leader in the entire country who has participated in this "extensive" poll.

    The IAFF touts Senator Kerry’s strong support of firefighter issues and President Bush’s obstinate lack of support. They are quick to point out the President not funding the Safer Act and the millions cut from the Fire Act Grants. They conveniently forget to mention that President Bush has provided America’s fire service with 400 percent more funding than President Clinton.

    In one of their IAFF articles Harold Schaitberger, IAFF President and Campaign co-chair for Senator Kerry, calls the Department of Homeland Security the “Bush Homeland Security Sham.” He states that if you go into any firehouse in America you will not see any improvement since 9-11.

    It seems he’s not aware of the 650 million dollars doled out to over 8000 fire departments around the country in 2003. The upward of 200 million in 2001 or the 600 million in 2004.

    3.2 Billion has been allocated to first responders for 2005. He may not be aware that the US Fire Administration falls under the Department of Homeland security. Firefighters understand our union president hasn’t had much time lately. He’s been very busy campaigning for Senator Kerry. He’s been out there earning the $216,000 salary his conservative membership dishes out for him annually. I stand corrected, it's illegal for union dues to go for political purposes. There’s nothing like a union president committed to representing the will of his constituency.

    He realizes we’re a bit upset. He consoles us by letting us know he bases his decisions only on firefighter issues.

    He seems to have taken the condescending attitude that we’re just upset because we’re pro life, or pro-limited government, or pro-gun rights or pro-tax cuts. According to him, if we would only stand back and take a look at the firefighter big picture we would see that Senator Kerry is our guy.

    Senator Kerry is for turning over the Beck decision men. Look at all the dues we lose from firefighters who have the choice to leave a union. Senator Kerry understands how forced unionism is good for workers. Workers in Forced Union states have higher wages.

    Don’t be swayed by the fact that Right to Work States have less unemployment, lower cost of living, recover from recessions quickly and facilitate more money in your pocket in a final analysis. Senator Kerry is for policy that is good for workers. He wants to extend unemployment benefits, expand the welfare system, penalize success, and reward lethargy. Can’t you see the Progressive vision he has for American manufacturing? Again he’s right in line with the AFL-CIO. He wants to emplace tariffs, isolate the country, destroy NAFTA, do away with the WTO. How can you dispute how this is good for us with Green Peace and the Sierra Club solidly allied with us on this issue. If we could get those manufacturing job numbers back up we might move from our current labor force number of 12% to the glory days of 40% when manufacturing was really strong. Just think of the politicians we could put in our back pocket with all those PAC funds.

    In all seriousness, in a speech given by Harold Schaitberger this year touting the union's ability to get conservative voters to vote for liberal candidates, he stated that the IAFF membership is:


    87% moderate conservative
    44% registered Republican
    29% registered Democrat
    70% gun owners
    Family people with both members working
    Likely to have two jobs

    The IAFF claims that it is a representative democracy. A major problem in the union is that the leadership does not run on a political platform, yet it tends to be liberal. Rather than represent the views of its membership, local leadership works to persuade the membership to follow the National. Union leadership serves the interests of the union not the interests of its constituency.

    To make matters worse, firefighters in general are not aware of the union politics on a national level. Firefighters use the union as a local bargaining and mediation tool. They are not regularly informed of union politics on a national level. When they are informed through IAFF newsletters, the information is spun to suit the needs of the National.

    Union leaders who attempt to represent their firefighters and don't comply with the union agenda are pressured to conform and are admonished. One union president, whose membership is supporting President Bush, was told by state union leaders that it was his job to get the guys to vote for Kerry. In 2000 the Florida State Association endorsed President Bush. They were admonished publicly by the IAFF.

    Somehow, I hope the American people understand that firefighters standing with Senator Kerry represent but a small portion of the union membership. Most of those yellow shirts are in leadership positions. My heart goes out to the 800,000 volunteers who serve this nation, are abused by unions, and who support our president. They are as offended as professionals with this illusion being presented to the public that firefighters stand united behind Senator Kerry.

    The number one firefighter issue for this firefighter is the war on terror. That unthinkable act on 9-11 that took the lives of 343 of my brothers and sisters still weighs heavy on my heart. This war on terror is in its infancy.

    The IAFF and Senator Kerry are the people using this war as leverage for political gain, not President Bush.

    President Bush has provided a clear path toward victory and has not wavered in hard times. We will be attacked again. Firefighters will loose their lives at the hands of terrorists. The politicians seeking to regain power will use this for leverage instead of attempting to unite the country to facilitate a quicker end to this war.

    Prevention from terrorist attacks and keeping the enemy fighting on his home turf is key. We will never have an incident like 9-11 go smoothly no matter how much we prepare and spend. Put the money into preventative measures such as intelligence, military, and border security.

    Educate the public so they can have some idea of how to respond if they are caught in the middle of one of these incidents. The FDNY did a magnificent job on that tragic day. President Bush and his administration have done a tremendous job in the aftermath. God bless FDNY, and God bless our President.


  2. #2
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE E40FDNYL35's Avatar
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    Default Why Not Bush?

    Imagine this: you just typed www.iaff.org into your web browser. Up pops a message that says, “The IAFF has just announced its support for a political candidate who proposed to eliminate funding for grants to local fire departments, who refused to provide federal funds to hire fire fighters in our most needy communities, whose policies were resulting in the closing of fire houses across America — and who was doing this while opening fire houses in Iraq.”

    What would you think?
    As elected IAFF leaders charged with representing the needs of professional fire fighters, we would have absolutely no business supporting a candidate with positions that so obviously harm the fire service and our members. You’d rightfully be upset if we supported such a candidate.

    George W. Bush is the political candidate described above. It’s because President Bush has not supported us on our issues that the IAFF is not supporting him for president.
    The fact is, since September 11, 2001, President Bush has proposed two budgets that eliminate funding for the FIRE Act, an important fire service community grant program, and now he refuses to fund the much-needed SAFER Act, which would assist in the hiring of 75,000 new fire fighters nationwide, while two-thirds of the nation’s fire departments remain understaffed. Pages 11-12 of this issue of International Fire Fighter explore in further detail President Bush’s positions on fire fighter and first responder issues. I hope you will take the time to read through this important information.

    I am honored and blessed to have been elected and entrusted with the awesome responsibility, as General President of the IAFF, of representing the needs of professional fire fighters. I take my responsibility to represent you very seriously. In making the tough decisions about who to support in political elections, the IAFF Executive Board focuses solely on a candidate’s record of support on fire service and employment issues.
    Issues of school prayer, right to life, the environment, or any other issues that are of great concern to the citizens of this country, including professional fire fighters, are not taken into consideration.
    Our job is to represent the needs of fire fighters and paramedics — period. And even though President Bush stood with us on September 11 — in that famous photograph with his arm around a retired FDNY member at Ground Zero — his record of real action on first responder issues since that fateful day is a record of failure. In fact, it was this record of failing first responders, despite his promises, that led me to object to President Bush using the images of fire fighters carrying one of their own out of Ground Zero, strictly for personal political gain in a campaign commercial.

    To be clear, I did not object to President Bush putting forth his view of his leadership following the horrific events of September 11. As commander-in-chief, he stood with us on that day.And he has a right to talk about it. But using the images of fire fighters carrying one of their own out of Ground Zero suggests that the president’s actions in the more than two years since September 11 have supported fire fighters. The reality is that he has failed us on our issues. And this is what I object to.
    We trust our membership to evaluate all the issues and make your decisions on a candidate’s worthiness. We respect your right to form your own opinion about who to support for president of the United States, and the issues on which you base that support. As elected IAFF leaders, it is our duty to support candidates who support fire fighters — regardless of political affiliation. That policy has led to our union being one of few that truly supports not just Democrats, but legislators on both sides of the political aisle — including Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert (R-IL), Senator John McCain (R AZ), and Florida Governor Jeb Bush. In the case of the candidates for president of the United States this year, George W. Bush has a terrible record of support for our issues, while Senator John Kerry has a 100 percent record of supporting fire fighters. That is why the IAFF has endorsed John Kerry for president and not George W. Bush.


    IAFF General President Harold Schaitberger
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 06-26-2004 at 08:34 AM.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
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  3. #3
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    Default

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I long ago came to the conclusion that George W. is a self serving, ideologically-driven dolt. Just my opinion, mind you. And it may not be popular in some quarters but in my station, in a Republican state, it has become the majority opinion. And yes, we are IAFF and no, we have not been pressured by anyone at the state level. I would know. To get into an arguement over this in a forum is fruitless - I doubt at this point that any minds will be changed. I know for a fact that mine won't. I don't like being lied to and I don't like being played for a fool and unfortunately that's how this entire administration makes me feel. Wish it didn't but there it is.

    Thanks, E40FDNYL35, for balancing the discussion.

  4. #4
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    Default

    Two quick points, then I'll go back into retirement.

    1. Fire service is a local issue. Pres. Bush DID NOT cut funding that would put fire fighters on the apparatus or equipment on your vehicles. The FDNY has a valid point that the homeland security money should be doled out according to an objective threat assessment. But FDNY's bitch is with Bloomberg, not Pres. Bush.

    2. For an enlightened look at unions, read this book.

    Betrayal: How Union Bosses Shake Down Their Members and Corrupt American Politics by Linda Chavez.

    From the Publisher
    "Simply put, the leftist labor unions have the Democrats in their pockets. And we're all paying the price."
    Linda Chavez, President George W. Bush's original choice for Secretary of Labor and a former union official, is one of the foremost authorities on America's labor unions. Now, in the explosive new book Betrayal, she and fellow union expert Daniel Gray expose the corrupt bargain between the labor movement and the Democratic Party.

    Committed to a far-left political agenda--and to enhancing their own power--union bosses funnel at least half a billion dollars into Democratic coffers every year. And they do it, illegally, by using dues money that workers are forced to pay as a condition of their employment--dues money that each year brings the unions $17 billion, all of it tax-free.

    What do labor bosses get in return? The power to call the shots in Democratic campaigns and on party policy, extraordinary influence at all levels of government, billions of dollars in taxpayer-funded federal grants, and special legal privileges that leave them free to act as they please, no matter the consequences for the American people. The cycle of corruption is seemingly endless.

    Chavez and Gray name names, exposing the many politicians who are in Big Labor's pocket--including the leading lights of the Democratic Party. Betrayal also reveals:

    * Big Labor's all-out efforts in the 2004 election, including how just one local union has launched a $35-million campaign to unseat President Bush

    * How corrupt union officials use members' hard-earned money to fund lavish lifestyles--and how their Democratic supporters let them get away with it

    * How unions flout the law by failing toreport any of their political spending to the IRS

    * How a government report uncovered the Democrats' sellout to Big Labor--but how the unions and the Democrats sued to keep the report from going public

    * How the U.S. government lets unions practice legalized terrorism against American citizens

    * How public-employee unions extort concessions from the government and put Americans at risk by refusing to provide vital services like policing and firefighting

    * How Americans now live under a system of legal apartheid--one set of rules for labor bosses, another for the rest of us

    All of us foot the bill for this corrupt system. Now it's up to us to do something about it.



    From The Critics
    Publisher's Weekly
    America's labor unions pour money into the Democratic Party in pursuit of a "socialist," big government political agenda and have abandoned their mission of collective bargaining, contend Fox pundit Chavez (An Unlikely Conservative) and Gray, a consultant for Stop Union Political Abuse. What makes this worse than corporate bosses funding Republicans, they note, is that labor's pelf comes from the "forced dues" of workers who don't individually consent to union political donations. Chavez, a former union official and Bush labor secretary nominee, and Gray, a former National Right to Work Committee official, make some charges stick. They show that unions do give a lot of money to, and wield a lot of clout with, Democrats, with the usual problems of corruption and favoritism that big money special-interest politics entails. But by the authors' own accounting, unions spend less than 5% of their money on politics-a percentage that, they concede, workers can get refunded from their dues, albeit with some difficulty. And when Chavez and Gray show unions sticking to winning better pay, better benefits and lighter workloads for their members, they damn them for bankrupting companies and driving jobs abroad. At that point, the book's critique of unions' excesses shades into a one-sided attack on their very existence. Agent, Eric Simonoff. (On sale June 8) Copyright 2004 Reed Business Information.

  5. #5
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE E40FDNYL35's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Two quick points, then I'll go back into retirement.

    1. Fire service is a local issue. Pres. Bush DID NOT cut funding that would put fire fighters on the apparatus or equipment on your vehicles. The FDNY has a valid point that the homeland security money should be doled out according to an objective threat assessment. But FDNY's bitch is with Bloomberg, not Pres. Bush.

    2. For an enlightened look at unions, read this book.

    Betrayal: How Union Bosses Shake Down Their Members and Corrupt American Politics by Linda Chavez. .....

    George not so fast here...



    We also believe that everyone should know the facts about George W. Bush before casting a vote in November.
    Fact 1: Since 9/11 President Bush has proposed two budgets that eliminate funding for the FIRE Act, a program that provides grants to local fire departments and is supported by both Republican and Democratic members of Congress. (Thankfully, Congress saved the FIRE Act funding from President Bush’s cuts.)
    Fact 2: President Bush has refused to use federal funds to hire fire fighters, insisting it is a state and local matter,
    Fact 3: After a bi-partisan Congress passed the much-needed SAFER Act authorizing the federal government to assist in the hiring of 75,000 new fire fighters nationwide, President Bush has steadfastly refused to fund it. Meanwhile, two-thirds of the nation’s fire departments remain understaffed.
    Fact 4: President Bush’s 2005 budget proposes to cut Homeland Security Department funding for first responders by $700 million. Furthermore, the president wants to again cut funding for the FIRE Act by 33 percent, or $250 million, this year. In addition, state and local programs for homeland security purposes have been reduced by $200 million.

    and that book has nothing to do with the IAFF...


    When I go to WAR again I want to know that the Federal Government backs us 100%. Not just by posing for pictures but by spending MONEY.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  6. #6
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    Default

    Well George, I would guess that just about everyone who ever posted anything on these threads can find a book or article somwhere that backs his/her opinion. That doesn't automatically make it correct. I would guess that there are truths in both sides and as I get older I find that nothing is completely black and white. The fact that we have access to differing written opinions and that most of us can debate the issues thoughtfully and respectfully speaks volumes about this country and crosses political party lines. I would hope that this continues, but I sense that each end of the spectrum is becoming more polarized and those in the middle - most of us - are left out of the debates.

    I really don't need anyone to speak for me or make my decisions for me; I have watched and listened and read and come to my own conclusions. I'm comfortable with them, for me, but I don't expect everyone to agree. I guess all I was trying to say was that I don't feel betrayed. How the majority feels will be decided in November. That's the only poll that counts, after all........

    Enjoy your retirement.....

  7. #7
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Angry My .02 worth..............

    Someone already said everyone has their own opinion. I do. My opinion is that a certain labor leader is busting his butt to be in line for the Labor Secretary's post in a new President's Cabinet. American Politics at work. Have a nice day.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Default Re: My .02 worth..............

    Originally posted by hwoods
    Someone already said everyone has their own opinion. I do. My opinion is that a certain labor leader is busting his butt to be in line for the Labor Secretary's post in a new President's Cabinet. American Politics at work. Have a nice day.
    Woods shoots and scores!

    BTW< Ms. Chavez's book has alot to do with the IAFF. Check out the section on the illegal use of dues money to fund political activities. Check out the section about the way that unions, including th IAFF, refuse to refund dues money, as is required by federal law, to their members that is not used for negotiation and collective bargaining. Check out the way that all unions, most notably the NEA, commit tax fraud by having political operatives on their payroll. Check out the section on how the investigations of these powerful liberal unions are squashed.

    If I was an IAFF member (I'm not, but I am still a union member), I would quit so freakin' fast for the utter waste of my money on partisan politics. That is something that unions are prohibited to use untaxed dues money for.

  9. #9
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    Default

    If I was an IAFF member (I'm not, but I am still a union member), I would quit so freakin' fast for the utter waste of my money on partisan politics. That is something that unions are prohibited to use untaxed dues money for.
    You're not so you can't.

    I am and I won't.

    The money spent is not "dues" money. The money spent on political objectives is optional,(FIREPAC) I gave and I support it's use towards our "Special Interest". I do not always agree with endorsements made and I make that known in the voting booth.

  10. #10
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    Nail200,

    Thanks for starting the thread and providing a link to www.firefightersforbush.com I will certainly be wearing the t-shirts and putting the bumper stickers on my cars. Most of the guys in my department will be doing the same.

    Thanks

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    Default Glad to hear a good debate

    Whether you support the President or not the site will offer a lot of information. Obviously we're biased towards the President. We are firefighters and we back our statements with the facts.

    We have recieved more funding under this President than with any other in history.

    The SAFER Act is the hardest point to argue with someone that believes the federal government should be involved with funding staffing at a local level. That Bill could not pass the house. The reason it did make it through is because it was tacked onto a DOD bill that had to pass in order to fund our national defense. The ability of the IAFF to get it snuck through Congress and shoved down the Presidents throat is stated in IAFF news letters. No BIG SECRET!
    As a conservative I don't believe in federal funding for staffing. I don't like it with the Police or teachers either. It's a local state and city issue. One time grants such as the Fire Act Grants OK. Staffing funding No Way.

    Kerry is the union's man because he leans towards a socialist form of government. This is what the AFL CIO is pushing for. It provides them more power, money, and control. Kerry supports forced unionism and weakening our national defense in order to fund social and labor issues. Harold was the VP for political affairs in the AFL CIO. You can't tell me he's not influenced in this direction.

    If you don't agree with me great, but before you buy the IAFF and AFL CIO spin you should take a good look at their political activities. It's lined out in the AFL CIO web site. A little money in your pocket and a few extra firefighters might make it a firefighter issue to you. Labor unions trying to reshape our form of government and supporting weak leaders in a time of WAR is an issue that effects all Americans.

    The article I wrote is steeped in truth not spin. If you pick it apart I'd be glad to answer specifics and show you where the information is to back my stance.

  12. #12
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Default

    Originally posted by Nail200

    As a conservative I don't believe in federal funding for staffing. I don't like it with the Police or teachers either. It's a local state and city issue. One time grants such as the Fire Act Grants OK. Staffing funding No Way.

    Kerry is the union's man because he leans towards a socialist form of government. This is what the AFL CIO is pushing for. It provides them more power, money, and control. Kerry supports forced unionism and weakening our national defense in order to fund social and labor issues. Harold was the VP for political affairs in the AFL CIO. You can't tell me he's not influenced in this direction.
    I will allow the perspective on federal funding for staffing. I disagree.

    But how has Kerry weakened our national defense? His voting record? Could it be the bills he voted against were also laden with pork? And whose pork? Can you show me one US congressman, senator, or one State assemblymember or State senator who lost to a challenger for bringing too much pork back to their home district? More than one study has proven that states with conservative majorities receive more federal funds than they contribute with the opposite being the case with states of liberal majorities. Conservatives may blast away at the Feds, but their hand is out even further wanting their cut.

    I also love how conservatives bash about tax and spend liberals. This administration does nothing but borrow and spend. The conservatives control all three branches of govt. with congress becoming the girl who can't say 'no' to the President. We have a half trillion dollar deficit. The Pentagon wants more money. And when it asks for more, all the conservatives demand the rest of us pony up. Yet no one even flinches when the DoD loses over $2 trillion.

    There's plenty of money for no-bid contracts to be awarded to Halliburton, but not enough money to provide the personnel doing the actual fighting their own body armor. Maybe someone can explain the priorities because I can't figure it out.

    I submit the ineptitude by this administration has made the US more insecure by its foreign policy and fiscal incompetence.

    I'll take my chances with Kerry. At least there will become a check and balance to this out of control policy that is spending us into oblivion.

  13. #13
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    Default Sen. Kerry Weak on Defense

    Senator Kerry has never shown a tendency to support the military or intelligence. His voting record consitently is nae to the military projects that have given our soldiers the advantage on the battlefield. Siting pork as an excuse not to fund these projects is less than accurate. Take a peek at his bood "The New Soldier".
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=11866 You will find within its pages support for the same tendency he has now to want to rely on the UN for our securtiy.

    His voting record has not only be abismal for defense it is also reflected in his record on supporing Intelligence. He votes to slash funding and then bashes them when they can't do their jobs.
    This is also reenforced by the fact that Kerry and his buddies tied the hands of our intelligence services to get operatives on the ground after the Iran Contra ordeal.

    As for the President's programs and spending. Most conservatives are not behind him 100% on either of these issues. We due understand he inherited a recession caused by the tech industry crash. We also understand this was worsened by the events of 9-11.
    I myself understand that a war costs and I'm willing to suffer what ever the consequences in order to bring Victory to our country.
    I don't want our children to have to fight these same thugs. If a war comes their way I don't want it to be handed down to them from me.

    Not much we can say about Halliburton that hasn't been said. Do me a favor and name one company you think can do a better job.

    In response to ineptitude. I site that the ineptitude of the previous administration helped get us into this mess. At least if they'd have done their job and put the country above their ideals Bin Laden wouldn't be an issue today.

    There's no check and balance with Kerry. If you want a Socialist you'll get one with him. If you think that's going to curb spending just take a peak at Germany and some of the other countries Kerry idealizes and see where it got them.

    With the picture you paint you would think its all gloom and doom.
    Our country is doing fine under the circumstances. The democrats and the IAFF don't have a job it you have a positive outlook for the country. They make their living from people wanting handouts and government intervention in our lives.

    I'll take my chances with President Bush. A PROVEN LEADER WITH A CLEAR VISION!

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    While I think Harold Schaitberger is a great labor leader,I think credit should go where it's due.Al Whitehead lead us into the political arena.Brother Harold carries on in fine fashion.

    The political arena is where we win the battles.

    I'm a proud owner of a yellow "Fire Fighters For Kerry " t-shirt.Paid for with MY money,not Union funds.The same money that I earn , thanks to my Union.

    If you don't like what your labor leaders are doing,change your leaders.Just like I don't like what GWB is doing,I hope to help change the resident of the White House.

    We could argue the good,bad and ugly of both canidates well past election day.The most important thing you can do is to vote.Simple.

  15. #15
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    And somebody here want to take time to explain to me why s**tcanning NAFTA is a BAD idea? Personally with a majority of the Congress thinking the way they do,I'm not real sure anyone is going to do ANYTHING beneficial for us regardless of party affiliation.T.C.

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    Default Voting and NAFTA

    Parrothead,

    You go gettem. You're right about casting your vote to prove your case. You have every right to support Kerry and that's not my beef. I'm not here to attempt to sway your vote. What is happening is the union states firefighters are for Kerry. That is a lie. A minority of union firefighters are for Kerry.

    The issue for conservative firefighters is that we make up a large majority in the union. Harolds own words state 87% moderate to conservative, 44% reg. Rep, and 29%, Reg Dem. A large portion of the 87% are those in predominately republicans states that don't require us to register.

    Conservative firefighters eliminate the weight of their vote by financially supporting an organization that effectively campaigns for a candidate we don't support. They effectively rally multiple votes against our one. How would you feel if the union demographics were 70% democratic and the union endorsed President Bush WITH OUT POLLING THE MEMBERHIP. I think you'd have a different take.

    Rescue,

    As for NAFTA. There are arguments for and against that both make sense. My issue is that the Union is for isolating us and restricting free trade in an attempt to save manufacturing jobs etc..
    Restricting free trade historicly won't work. Creating an America that is competetive and adjusting the workforce to suite these needs is what will benefit us for years to come. It's oversimplified but, one example of how we might adjust. Manufacturing of heavy machinery has gone overseas and is being produced at a fraction of the cost it did here in America. That is a negative for manufacturing. I have a cabinet shop that is outfitted with these tools at a fraction of what I would have payed twenty years ago allowing me to go into business and produce high end custom cabnetry.

    Who produces all the trucks being used to haul goods back and forth across the boarder.

    What are the benefits of helping Mexico create an environment in their country so we don't have so many imigrants sneaking over the boarder and using the social services the American tax payers provide.

    Read about the terrif wars of the thirties and fourties. Isolationism has historically not worked. Look at the Eco groups who just attempted to stop NAFTA threw legislation. They are teamed up with the AFL CIO. You can dig around on the AFL CIO web site and read where they advertise that they are organizing with these groups against the WTO. You can go to the Socialists in Congress web site and pull up their campaign contributions doners. You can see for yourself who our unions are supporting.

    You may just have a different take on governments role in our life.
    I'm conservative and I feel our government has already made social concesions such as medicaid, medicare, social security, welfare, and unemployment. I say fix what we've got. Don't move farther towards socialism. Kerry is as far left as the Senate goes.

  17. #17
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nail200
    Senator Kerry has never shown a tendency to support the military or intelligence. His voting record consitently is nae to the military projects that have given our soldiers the advantage on the battlefield.

    I'll take my chances with President Bush. A PROVEN LEADER WITH A CLEAR VISION!
    This is good stuff.

    I'll try to hit the high points.

    First of all synonyms are not your friends. But that's a different lesson.

    Second. I do remember the previous administration going after both Bin Laden and Hussein. And when he did what was the response from conservatives? Was it....let's got get them!! Let's pile on!! We're behind you Mr. President. NOOOOO!!!

    The response from conservatives (specifically Phil Gramm (R-TX)), "he's wagging the dog, he's trying to distract us from impeachment". Not surprising, another conservative was wrong.....again. Quite common actually.

    As far as the rest. It is the normal right wing bloviating propaganda. Did you look into the reasons Kerry voted against bills funding defense and intelligence? Can you say unequivocally they had no 'pork' in them that you claim to so self righteously detest? I doubt it. And my next question. Given the size of the defense budget, how much is enough? The Pentagon admits to not being able to account for over $2 trillion!!! That's a thousand billions!!! How much more do they need??? Conservatives always talk about our weakness. The US spends as much on defense as the rest of the free world combined, and yet we were weakened by Clinton. How many airplanes do we need? How many ships, tanks, missiles do we need? And most importantly, how many troops do we need? No one ever answers those questions. The only answer anyone ever says is MORE. But no one ever says how much more. It costs money to pay for these things. Your taxes that you complain are already too high.

    As far as Halliburton. I have no problem with them getting contracts. What I do have a problem with is their incorpation in a tax haven nation to avoid paying taxes. I believe it is hypocritical, and immoral that my (and yours by the way) tax dollars are supporting a company who benefits hugely from taxation but goes out of its way to avoid paying taxes. What it means is that people like you and I are required to pay higher taxes (or in Bush's case, borrow the money and let future taxpayers pay) to subsidize their profit and loss. You believe that is right and proper, more power to you.

    Your slam and comparisons to Germany is pretty nonsensical, but then again so is alot of your arguement in this matter.

  18. #18
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE E40FDNYL35's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nail200
    .... What is happening is the union states firefighters are for Kerry. That is a lie. A minority of union firefighters are for Kerry.
    Nail200 what poll did you take that supports your view?????
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 06-26-2004 at 10:01 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Nail - I don't believe that a minority of FF's are for Bush.

    We elect our Local leaders.Our Local leaders elect our International officers.
    We did vote for Kerry,just by electing our officers.

  20. #20
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    Harold,

    If you are so sure you are doing what is right for the "members" you represent, why don't you take a poll?

    There is plenty of time before the election. Send out an official poll to all members with the union news letter. It couldn't cost as much as the pro Kerry flyers you are sending out every month.

    Come on Harold, ask those you are supposed to represent their opinion. Not just a few of them, but all of them. You will avoid all of this criticism if you find out what the members want, and support their position.

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