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    Default Another "Training" accident

    Before I start, I want to offer my prayers and best wishes for all those involved.

    Did anybody happen to read the FH.com story about the Iowa brothers seriously burned training ? The story is very short on detail but some parts of it just sound, well, not right.

    Anybody from the area have details or an update on these guys' conditions?


    ----------------------
    Iowa Firefighting Brothers Seriously Burned in Training Accident


    Associated Press

    GLENWOOD, Iowa (AP) -- Two brothers from Glenwood were being treated for severe burns at a Lincoln, Neb., hospital Wednesday after being injured during a training accident being conducted by the Glenwood volunteer fire department.

    Roger Marvel of Glenwood was listening to a police scanner Monday night when he heard there had been a fire training accident. Earlier that day, he had spoken with his son, Dustin, who had told him he and his brother, Jeremy, would be involved in the training in Glenwood in southwest Iowa.

    ``I knew it was one of my sons,'' Roger said. ``And then the scanner said another person was severely burned. Everything in my mind said it was the boys.''

    He was correct.

    Jeremy Marvel, 28, and his brother, Dustin Marvel, 21, were leading the training exercise involving a controlled fire for the Glenwood Volunteer Fire Department. Jeremy is the department's second assistant chief and Dustin is a captain.

    The injuries occurred about 7 p.m. Monday as they lit the brush pile on the south side of Glenwood, fire department spokesman Rick Erickson said.

    ``When they ignited it, it ignited really fast and the flames rolled back over them,'' he said.

    The two were taken to a nearby hospital, then transferred to the burn center at Saint Elizabeth Regional Medical Center in Lincoln.

    The two have burns over all their bodies, Katy Marvel, Jeremy's wife, said. The hospital said they were in good condition Tuesday night.

    Roger said his sons were not dressed in firefighter gear during the training exercise.

    ``They've been in some real dangerous situations,'' he said, ``but when you're training, you don't expect something like this to happen.''

    The Marvel brothers are doing well now, considering the circumstances, Roger said.

    He said they're in good hands at Saint Elizabeth. The hospital is recognized as having a premier burn center employing advanced treatment techniques.

    One of those advancements, Transcyte, described as a human tissue-derived temporary skin substitute, is being used on the brothers' burns, said Ruth Albrecht, the hospital's burn education program coordinator.

    Transcyte acts like a bandage, but its material is grown from specific human skin cells and contains key human proteins and other vital substances known to help in the burn healing process.

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    Roger said his sons were not dressed in firefighter gear during the training exercise.
    OOOHHH MAAANNNNN...... What were they thinking?

    I hope they come through their injuries in a speedy and safe fashion. Our dept will be going to the Nanaimo FD training centre in September, and October for Live Fire 101 training, I expect to be dressed to the "Nines" while we are there, and that the instructors will too.
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    That's one of the things that caught my eye. Another is

    ``When they ignited it, it ignited really fast and the flames rolled back over them,'' he said.
    That sounds like gasoline.

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    My prayers to the two brothers, fortunatly they will live to learn their PPE mistakes, but regardless speedy recovery to them.
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    My prayers as well for their sppedy recovery.
    What scares me is that they were "leading" the training exercise.
    If our leaders are this casual about their personal safety, what is the message to their firefighters?
    I.A.C.O.J. - Getting crustier every day

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    Default Re: Another "Training" accident

    Originally posted by EFD840

    ``They've been in some real dangerous situations,'' he said, ``but when you're training, you don't expect something like this to happen.''
    How freakin' often do we need to hear a line like this?! They're setting a fire, maybe with gasoline, or some other accelerant, WITHOUT their bunker gear on??? And they didn't expect something to happen?

    I know this amounts to preaching to the choir, but fer God's sake, HOW do you get the word out to all the little FD's in the cracks and crannies of the US that you WEAR YOUR EFFING BUNKER GEAR WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO PLAY WITH FIRE!

    IMHO, training safety is just like industrial safety. There really is no excuse for injuries. They can always be traced to a failure to provide the proper safeguards.

    All that being said, I really do feel bad for these guys and their families. They have a long, hard road ahead of them, and I wish them well.
    PS- Maybe everyone should take a moment to look HERE. this site is a good one for photos of similar "accidents waiting to happen"
    Last edited by jthomas; 06-30-2004 at 01:04 PM.

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    All I can say is DAMNIT!!!

    And get well soon.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

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    My prayers go out to them for a speedy recovery.

    Another thing that caught my eye besides what you guys already said is this:
    Jeremy Marvel, 28, and his brother, Dustin Marvel, 21, were leading the training exercise involving a controlled fire for the Glenwood Volunteer Fire Department. Jeremy is the department's second assistant chief and Dustin is a captain.
    It's unfortunate when departments must rely on guys in their 20's to be senior officers.
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    Angry

    As others have said... We wish them a speedy recovery and our thoughts and prayers are with them as the road will be long.

    But....

    What Were They Thinking???

    Its just a training fire.... Fire is Fire is Fire. Burn ya, kill ya, training, actual incident, career, volunteer, boy scout. It is equal opportunity.


    And of course we can bring up the whole NFPA 1403 topic again.

    And as jthomas posted.. you can go to firefighterclosecalls.com and see a gallery full of the same kind of crap.

    Some day, God willing, we will learn from our past.
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    [QUOTE
    It's unfortunate when departments must rely on guys in their 20's to be senior officers. [/B][/QUOTE]

    Maybe they didn't HAVE to rely on them, maybe they were the most qualified. I guess we don't know from the story, do we?

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    Default Re: Another "Training" accident

    Originally posted by EFD840
    Roger said his sons were not dressed in firefighter gear during the training exercise.

    ``They've been in some real dangerous situations,'' he said, ``but when you're training, you don't expect something like this to happen.''
    To all a speedy recovery.

    I wasn't there, so I am basing my comments purely on what was written in the article and posted here.

    I think that training should be treated like the real incident, as much as possible. If everyone is in the "real" mindset, it makes for more realistic training. It also prevents what appears to have happend here.

    Its funny, (well not really) that so many have posted on these forums bitching about the NFPA and their "oversite", yet you never read about injuries occuring when 1403 is followed. Not saying it can't happen, just that it is less likely to.

    Dave

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    I hope our brothers have a speedy recovery.......

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    Originally posted by Engine32

    Maybe they didn't HAVE to rely on them, maybe they were the most qualified. I guess we don't know from the story, do we?
    A 21 year old the most qualified for a Captain? I'm not dissing the both brothers' qualifications. It's just sad that a 21 year old may be the most highly qualified in that department for captain. Maybe he is uber-mature and uber-trained, but then again he also didn't wear PPE in this live burn drill.

    I'm 24 and even if I had been in this since I was 18 (I've been in it since I was 22) I would still not feel secure having me or anyone else my age be at a such a high rank because I believe somone should have both more fire and more life experience. In firefighting, experience is key to being able to lead. How much experience can a 21 year old have?
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    My prayers go out to those brothers and their families.

    They live just down the road from me a bit - don't know them, but probably interacted with others from their department at fire schools.

    What's done is done, and think these guys (and their department) learned a hard lesson. Experience is a great educator. So what have we learned from this?

    1. Always, always, ALWAYS wear full PPE whenever the situation has the potential to become dangerous - even in training.
    2. Gasoline is a poor fuel choice for starting a controlled burn.

    Let's not make this mistake again. Don't let their injuries be in vain.

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    As with all the other posts, let me begin by sending my best wishes to both these guys for a speedy recovery.

    When someone pointed out about these guys being officers & not wearing their gear which sets a bad example, I thought of an incident I saw the other day that brought that same point to mind.

    A local FD responds to a reported gas leak/fumes in the building type call...2 engines & a heavy rescue respond along with an asst. chief.
    All the FF's show up in their full bunker gear, some with SCBA on their back...shortly after arrival, they clear the situation & start exiting a store...let's see now...coupla FF's, a line officer all in full bunker gear...then out comes the chief in shorts & a T-shirt carrying just his portable radio. WTF????

    I know this department, they are VERY strict with the rules (sometimes too strict...about silly things, not safety related issues) and god forbid had one of these FF's shown up without his gear on, the chief would have ripped him/her and their officer apart about not wearing their issued PPE. Valid point mind you..but this from a guy wearing shorts & a t-shirt???

    This is nothing new...it is not uncommon here (and a lot of other places throughout the US as can be seen in other pics on www.firefighterclosecalls.com) for a chief to be in shorts, "boat shoes" & a bell cap with their radio slung across their shoulder while directing an operation. This while they mandate that their members (FF's, EMS, fire police) wear their issued PPE REGARDLESS of what the weather is like. How can you enforce the rules when you break them yourself continually???

    Well, just my 2 cents...Stay Safe...and WEAR YOUR GEAR!!!

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    Unhappy

    First off I wish these guys a full recovery, but most of all I hope their dept. has learned a valuable lesson. ALWAYS wear your gear, they have a saying in the Army "You train as you fight" which means you have to train like its real. I work at a small paid/volunteer dept. and one our biggest problems is firemen showing up on scene without their gear. I printed out that article and put it up for all our guys to see, highlighted the part about lack of gear and using gasoline to light that fire. I really wonder about a Asst. Chief that was supposed to be leading training setting an example like that. Lets all hope everyone learned something from this so maybe it won't happen again.
    "Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death."

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    Screw "fire fighter close calls". The answer lies in the 16 initiatives identified at the single most important fire service meeting in the history of the fire service. But nobody here talked about it for more than a day because Capt. Super FF from BigCity FD didn't show any pictures of big fires and dead bodies or there weren't fancy "FF have bif ones" T-shirts" for sale or 12 foot, 100 million candlepower light bars on display.

    I'm talking about The Fire Fighter Life Safety Summit sponsored by the USFA this year. Here are the 16 initiatives and a descriptive paragraph:

    Sixteen initiatives came out of the summit. Briefly, they are:
    1. Define and advocate the need for cultural change related to safety, leadership, management and personal responsibility;
    2. Enhance the personal and organizational accountability for health and safety;
    3. Focus greater attention on the integration of risk management with incident management at all levels;
    4. Empower all firefighters to stop unsafe practices;
    5. Develop and implement national standards for training, qualifications and certification;
    6. Develop and implement national medical and physical fitness standards;
    7. Create a national research agenda and data collection system that relates to initiatives;
    8. Use available technology to produce higher levels of health and safety;
    9. Investigate all firefighter fatalities, injuries and near misses;
    10. Ensure grant programs support the use of safe practices and/or mandate safe practices as an eligibility requirement;
    11. Develop and champion national standards for emergency response policies and procedures;
    12. Develop and champion national protocols for response to violent incidents;
    13. Provide firefighters and their families with access to counseling and psychological support;
    14. Provide public education with more resources and champion it as a critical fire and life safety program;
    15. Strengthen advocacy for the enforcement of codes and installation of home fire sprinklers;
    16. Make safety a primary consideration in the design of apparatus and equipment.

    These initiatives are not necessarily new or represent land-breaking inventions; they are based on information and fundamental truths and may cause discomfort and even controversy. They will also take a huge commitment of energy and resources over several years. We need not shy away due to either the size of the commitment or the fear of controversy. We can no longer accept that dying on the job is a normal way of doing business. Yes, the work is inherently dangerous and no, the death toll for firefighters will never be zero. But firefighters are dying unnecessarily and that must stop.
    Its not about being smarter, age or any of the other things identified here. Its about CULTURE! An everyday living breathing core belief that commits to no FF will ever get hurt or killed again. Period.

    Read the entire report at: http://www.usfa.fema.gov/inside-usfa...goes-home.shtm and then follow the links.

    Culture.

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    Thanks George. As is normal, you put to words what many of us were thinking! And beyond that is you (again as normal:) backed it up with facts.

    Your regular presence and guidance are much missed my Friend.

    I particularly like #'s 4, 5 and 16, but then I like them all.
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    George, gonna suggest a slight addition to your quote:

    An everyday living breathing core belief that commits to no FF will ever get hurt or killed again. due to our carelessness.

    There will always be unforeseen and unpredictable stuff happening.

    Hotel Vendome jumps to mind as a classic case of renovations that removed structural support. Sure building permits and inspections reduce some of that -- but until you have a culture among the building owners & construction guys that don't allow short-cuts, you'll always see stupid stuff like that.

    We'll always have vehicle collisions independent of our actions -- you could be proceding through a green light with your lights & sirens and there's nothing you can do about that loaded dump truck on the cross street that's lost it's brakes and is about to take you out.

    We'll still see the odd 40-year old with no other risk factors drop dead out of the blue. It happens in general society, it's gonna happen here too.

    Unless we reduce this job to taking 911 calls and dispatching robotic fire trucks, there's gonna be injuries & deaths.

    What we don't have to settle for is carelessness. We don't have to settle for fundemental tactical mistakes. We don't have to settle for lack of discipline. We don't have to settle for being distracted and politicing on the fireground. We don't have to settle for checking equipment, and not fixing or removing from service what's dangerous to use. We don't have to settle for not returning all equipment back to service after calls.

    You know, from what is written in that report, I'm perfectly willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt on the PPE issue -- we don't know what the purpose of the drill was (it was a brush pile -- was this some kind of brush fire drill, or perhaps just a "community service" being called training?), we don't know if they have brush-fire PPE or just structural PPE, and if they just have structural PPE was the weather appropriate for it to be worn for brush fires? It's a balancing act, the stress of structural PPE to the limited danger of brush in many (not all) situations. While some will go, "But..." I have and I'm perfectly willing to burn brush piles or fight brush fires in workboots, jeans, and a cotton shirt for the conditions we normally face here in CT, and I'm betting Iowa isn't a hotbed of scrub brush, high winds, and an ecology based on fire either. (Yes, our State guys do have brush gear, as well as a smattering of local departments -- it's nice, just not necessary IMHO)

    I'm not willing to cut as much slack on the gasoline issue, since that's something as a fire service we can train for, and it's something that's universally applicable regardless of money. Yeah, not all rural areas can afford the best equipment and gear, but books & classes are cheap in comparison. Nor does every area have the legitimate need, even when the money is there, to prepare for any potentiallity no matter how remote...but training to be aware of what might happen and the basics of what preliminaries to do while waiting for better resources to arrive is inexpensive.

    As long as I can remember us doing live burns I've heard old White coats going over the plans, and some did use Kerosene, but each time some accelerant was used I heard them checking it wasn't gasoline, and checking in what situation the accelerant would be used (which was, every time, on the final burn that would bring the building down). Even after hearing that -- at home -- I was a dumbass once and throw some gasoline to get a small pile of brush I was trying without much success to get going. When the gas ignited from a hot coal I didn't even know was still there and flashed back to the can I learned my personal lesson on how dangerous this **** is. I then was faced with having to extinguish the burning can of gasoline! I've burned plenty of piles before and since with the assistance of kerosene in a spray can -- there's a huge difference in how the 2 liquids act. Thing is the safety difference between the two is something we, as a fire service, can drill into the brains of our officers & troops that we never use gasoline, and we never even use kerosene inside any building that people will be inside of. It's not a new lesson, it's something cheap to share, and we should all care enough to make training include those lessons and attend training to learn it, and we should care enough to think out in advance plans for things like drills so we can do gut checks and say, "is that really a good idea?"
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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    George, gonna suggest a slight addition to your quote:

    An everyday living breathing core belief that commits to no FF will ever get hurt or killed again. due to our carelessness.

    There will always be unforeseen and unpredictable stuff happening.

    Hotel Vendome jumps to mind as a classic case of renovations that removed structural support. Sure building permits and inspections reduce some of that -- but until you have a culture among the building owners & construction guys that don't allow short-cuts, you'll always see stupid stuff like that.

    We'll always have vehicle collisions independent of our actions -- you could be proceding through a green light with your lights & sirens and there's nothing you can do about that loaded dump truck on the cross street that's lost it's brakes and is about to take you out.

    We'll still see the odd 40-year old with no other risk factors drop dead out of the blue. It happens in general society, it's gonna happen here too.

    Unless we reduce this job to taking 911 calls and dispatching robotic fire trucks, there's gonna be injuries & deaths.

    What we don't have to settle for is carelessness. We don't have to settle for fundemental tactical mistakes. We don't have to settle for lack of discipline. We don't have to settle for being distracted and politicing on the fireground. We don't have to settle for checking equipment, and not fixing or removing from service what's dangerous to use. We don't have to settle for not returning all equipment back to service after calls.

    You know, from what is written in that report, I'm perfectly willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt on the PPE issue -- we don't know what the purpose of the drill was (it was a brush pile -- was this some kind of brush fire drill, or perhaps just a "community service" being called training?), we don't know if they have brush-fire PPE or just structural PPE, and if they just have structural PPE was the weather appropriate for it to be worn for brush fires? It's a balancing act, the stress of structural PPE to the limited danger of brush in many (not all) situations. While some will go, "But..." I have and I'm perfectly willing to burn brush piles or fight brush fires in workboots, jeans, and a cotton shirt for the conditions we normally face here in CT, and I'm betting Iowa isn't a hotbed of scrub brush, high winds, and an ecology based on fire either. (Yes, our State guys do have brush gear, as well as a smattering of local departments -- it's nice, just not necessary IMHO)

    I'm not willing to cut as much slack on the gasoline issue, since that's something as a fire service we can train for, and it's something that's universally applicable regardless of money. Yeah, not all rural areas can afford the best equipment and gear, but books & classes are cheap in comparison. Nor does every area have the legitimate need, even when the money is there, to prepare for any potentiallity no matter how remote...but training to be aware of what might happen and the basics of what preliminaries to do while waiting for better resources to arrive is inexpensive.

    As long as I can remember us doing live burns I've heard old White coats going over the plans, and some did use Kerosene, but each time some accelerant was used I heard them checking it wasn't gasoline, and checking in what situation the accelerant would be used (which was, every time, on the final burn that would bring the building down). Even after hearing that -- at home -- I was a dumbass once and throw some gasoline to get a small pile of brush I was trying without much success to get going. When the gas ignited from a hot coal I didn't even know was still there and flashed back to the can I learned my personal lesson on how dangerous this **** is. I then was faced with having to extinguish the burning can of gasoline! I've burned plenty of piles before and since with the assistance of kerosene in a spray can -- there's a huge difference in how the 2 liquids act. Thing is the safety difference between the two is something we, as a fire service, can drill into the brains of our officers & troops that we never use gasoline, and we never even use kerosene inside any building that people will be inside of. It's not a new lesson, it's something cheap to share, and we should all care enough to make training include those lessons and attend training to learn it, and we should care enough to think out in advance plans for things like drills so we can do gut checks and say, "is that really a good idea?"
    I completely disagree.

    Your "addition" to my quote amounts to "that's good enough", when in reality, good enough is never good enough.

    Construction issues are a problem, but the new fire service culture would say "We want to be actively and intimately involved with every step of the process to make sure these makes don't happen>

    MV collisions happen, but the new fire service culture would not permit running to every single call with red lights and sirens. It would also increase dramatically training and proficiency for apparatus operators.

    Please keep in mind that I am using these as examples. I don't really care that your FD has the "best apparatus drivers in the world!".

    I am also not addressing this present incident. I know zero details and neither do any of you at this point.

    Zero tolerance is the ONLY acceptable attitude. Zero compromise. Zero relaxation. A complete culture change.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 07-05-2004 at 08:36 AM.

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    Originally posted by 0ptical42


    A 21 year old the most qualified for a Captain? I'm not dissing the both brothers' qualifications. It's just sad that a 21 year old may be the most highly qualified in that department for captain. Maybe he is uber-mature and uber-trained, but then again he also didn't wear PPE in this live burn drill.

    I'm 24 and even if I had been in this since I was 18 (I've been in it since I was 22) I would still not feel secure having me or anyone else my age be at a such a high rank because I believe somone should have both more fire and more life experience. In firefighting, experience is key to being able to lead. How much experience can a 21 year old have?
    I've worked for some great company officers, and yes, even command officers that were in their 20s. This applies to both the paid and volunteer side.

    Many people in their late 20's and up around here got their start as a FF at 15 (not saying it's right, just saying it happened). Did everything an 18 year-old could do except drive apparatus.

    I know some guys in the 19-21 year-old range that have made more fires than some of the 20-year career guys I work with. I realize they wouldn't have the life experience, but the fire experience is invaluable.

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    Did you ever notice that when there is a thread about a light bar, it goes to ten pages? Did you ever notice that when it comes to changing the culture of the fire service, people (for the most part) shut up and the discussion goes away?

    It's sad.

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    I hear ya there George. To "Lightbar or not to Lightbar" is an option. To change an attitude is a decision.


    Someone a long time ago said to me that Safety is not just a thing to be learned; its also a state of mind and conscience. You either believe in it and live it or ......
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

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    Originally posted by MalahatTwo7
    I hear ya there George. To "Lightbar or not to Lightbar" is an option. To change an attitude is a decision.


    Someone a long time ago said to me that Safety is not just a thing to be learned; its also a state of mind and conscience. You either believe in it and live it or ......
    It just reinforces my opinion that a large segment of the fire service LIKES that guys get hurt and killed and LIKE making the job more dangerous than it has to be. That's right! Large segment.

    It will be up to the others to change things.

  25. #25
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    It just reinforces my opinion that a large segment of the fire service LIKES that guys get hurt and killed and LIKE making the job more dangerous than it has to be. That's right! Large segment.
    Yeah, but if we try to make the job less dangerous, then all those "I fight what you fear" T-shirts won't mean as much, anymore.

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