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  1. #1
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Default WWYD...multiple known trapped...

    Hehehe...I've been having fun with google images & paintbrush again

    Time: A beautiful Sunday morning, 0700 hrs.
    Basic Scenario:
    1 (is it 2?) Family Home
    Heavily involved garage fire on the right that has auto-extended through a first floor window. Heavy smoke is showing under pressure from multiple locations.
    Two obvious victims calling for help (the purple dots).

    -- Size it up
    -- Give your report
    -- As a company officer, what's your initial Strategy & Tactics for your company and the next due?
    -- If you were the Chief coming in, whatcha thinkin?

    Have fun, enjoy, & stay safe
    Last edited by Dalmatian90; 06-30-2004 at 07:48 PM.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Default

    Shoot..OK, here's the pic:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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  3. #3
    Forum Member backdraft663's Avatar
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    Default

    (Size up)

    On scene working fire in a 2 story residential, be advised garage is beneth the house.


    - I would assign the next engine company as a RIT team.

    - If available have another engine start a water source if not mutual aid will handle it.

    - Call for additional engine companys.

    - Have a truck company ladder the house? Wouldnt this be the easiest way to remove the victims since the fire would be blocking your way upstairs?

    My First thoughts would be to get the 2 victims out of harms way.
    Ryan

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  4. #4
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Default

    Another excellent scenario by the "Spotted One"

    size up: two and half story wood frame, heavy fire in the garage with extension, heavy smoke throughout.

    First due engine: Takes an attack line and makes entry through the front door and protect the stairwell.

    The victim on floor #2 is in the most danger due to the location of the fire. The crew makes entry and remove the victim under the protection of the hoseline.

    Pump operator of first due engine, once the pump is se,t throws a ground ladder and evacuates victim #1.

    Ascertain if there is anyone else in the house, perform primary search and rescue ops.

    Second due engine stops at the fire, drops off the crew with the excxeption of the MPO/Chauffeur/driver, reverses from the fire to the hydrant, pumps the hydrant via HAV.

    Rescue and truck company arrive and perform their usual functions.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 06-30-2004 at 08:01 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  5. #5
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Default backdraft .....

    Just a question for you (not trying to be a jerk) ......Why would you assign a RIT so soon into the operation? With a fairly good fire load here, and an obvious rescue scenario wouldn't RIT be better off going to work right away? They could stretch lines, or even be used to remove the occupants from the windows. I don't know anything about you or your department, so I'm just asking a question. Thanks

  6. #6
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    Default

    Not the easiest thing for a 3 or 4 man company to deal with. In my department, the on-duty company would be alone for a good 5 minutes, depending on where the fire is at.

    Just some random thoughts...

    How heavy is the fire pushing out of the garage? Will it threaten your means of egress if you go through the front door? The line of choice would for sure be the good old 1 3/4 with 15/16 SB. It may be wise to quickly knock down the garage on the way inside with the line (to protect the second floor stairs). In my situation, assuming there is no one on vacation, we would have 3 members (including the initial IC) plus the driver. He will be busy securing the water supply, and he or the IC would be able to throw a ladder to victim 1. There can't be any time spent with that victim however. Either they can climb down the ladder themselves or jump. There is a much bigger problem the crew needs to deal with. Obviously a portable ladder for victim 2 is out of the question in the initial stages. The line will have to go in, protect the stairwell, and extinguish the fire in the 1st floor bedroom (there is adequate ventilation in that room already).

    But then again, with the scenario saying there was heavy smoke under pressure on the left side of the home, that may indicate heavy fire in the hall. Crap, after looking at the picture again, I see fire coming out the 2nd floor at the top of the stairwell??? Ok, I'm done with this one! I've only got a year on the job, I'll let the 30 year chief deal with it, lol. Although if the fire conditions are as such, an aerial ladder may be necessary to remove victim 2. BTW, absolutely no PPV.

  7. #7
    Forum Member backdraft663's Avatar
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    What do you mean when you said smoke under pressure? What by the way its blowing out the building, you can tell theres pressure?
    Ryan

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  8. #8
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Default

    Sometimes you see smoke "lazy" just kinda drifting out of a building. Usually it's lighter in color -- more white, light brown/gray. That's your food-on-the-stove/mattress/partition fire type of smoke (although partitions sometimes will be pushing from the eaves and you don't see much smoke in other places)

    Then sometime's you see smoke that's pouring -- there's a lot of heat driving it. That's gonna be a darker shade of brown, a "thick" gray, or black. The dark brown is usually average woodframe & normal household furnishings; the black is associated with high fuel loads -- cars, lots of plastics, asphalt shingles.

    You don't want to be complacent, and smoke is only one part of the size-up -- maybe it's light & lazy since the fire is in a locked basement room and used up it's oxygen, open the door without feeling it for heat and it comes ripping out at you -- but if you can read it, it tells a lot about the progress of the fire.

    Chiefs like to see white stuff that disappears -- that's steam. White stuff that drifts away but never disappears entirely is smoke, Firefighters hate that 'cause it means more overhaul
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  9. #9
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    Tough scenario...

    Size-up: Heavy fire showing from a two-story dwelling over a basement garage. We have two victims visible on division one and two.

    Tactics: With the fire showing from the gable above the front door I would say you're going to have fire in the interior stairs and upstairs hallway. Victim # 1 would be an easy VES grab from the exterior. That would not be possible with #2 because of the fire blowing out the first floor windows and garage. No choice but to get in and get water on the fire and work as quickly as possible to get it knocked down to enable access to that second floor either by the stairs or via a ground ladder outside.

    First engine (with 6)
    Officer: IC & IRIT
    Driver: Pump operator & IRIT

    2 FF stretch an 1 3/4 through the front door to start attacking the fire.

    2 FF throw the 24' extension ladder and rescue Victim # 1, then stretch a backup line to follow the first.

    Second engine (with 5)
    Driver: Establish water supply to first engine.

    Officer & one FF to rescue Victim #2 as soon as second floor is accessible.

    2 FF to search first floor.

    Squad (with 6)
    2 FF pull another line to the front of the garage and standby to enter and mop up after interior line knocks down some of the fire or enter the front door if back up line goes to work.

    2 FF inside with hooks and tools to open up as needed.

    Officer & 1 FF to the roof to open it up to get some relief to crews on second floor.

    Third engine (auto-aid): RIT

    Fourth engine (auto-aid): secure another water supply and assist as needed.

    Edited to add size up and crew assignments (since I didn't read all of the original post the first time)
    Last edited by WTFD10; 07-01-2004 at 12:33 AM.
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  10. #10
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Default Hmmmmmmmm

    Well, first of all......From viewing the photo, this appears to be a fairly new, recently constructed residential occupancy. Therefore, I am going to make my decisions based on that. Shoddy construction, a lot of 2x4's, fiberboard that burns like it is impregnated with gasoline....plus the all to familiar prefabricated-fireman-killing-truss roof. The heavy smoke "under pressure" is indicating a fire of well involvement, probably inside the walls & ceilings as well as the cockloft. Because of this, I am abandoning all hope of saving the dwelling, and concentrating my efforts (obviously)life safety of the occupants trapped.

    I am going to assume that I have a 2 engine and one truck assignment. All pieces have an officer and three. Due to the amount of fire & smoke showing at this time, I am assuming that communications is receiving multiple phone calls reporting a job. Because communications relayed the multiple phone calls report, I am automatically dropping a line- LDH, by the way. Engine 1 pulls past the driveway, leaving the address for the Truck.

    "Engine One to Communications, On location 123 Fart Street, have a 3 story single, 20x50, heavy fire in the first floor garage on sides one and two, heavy smoke throughout, have two occupants in windows on side 1. Have Engine 2 come in from (the opposite direction) and drop a line, and have them advance two 1.75" lines to the interior and perform a search for additional occupants. Truck One is to come in and raise a ground ladder and rescue the occupant on the third floor."

    Ok, My guys on E1 are:
    -Pump Op is breaking the line, connecting to the intake.
    -FF 1 is at the plug. Upon opening the plug, he returns to the piece, and advances one of the following: A mobile 2.5" or a preconnected deluge set OR a TFT "Blitzfire" to the driveway, and knocks down the heavy fire in the garage.
    FF 2 and myself are raising a 24' ground ladder to the occupant at the second floor window.

    Engine 2 and Truck 1 have arrived at the same time. E2 will advance 2 1.75" lines, and perform S & R for additional occupants. Remember, their priority is not fire attack, but S & R. If they happen to knock fire in the process, thats ok.

    Truck 1 raises a 35 to the occupant at the third floor window, and rescues same.

    After assuring that all occupants have been removed, I will then re-group. Hopefully by now the BC has arrived, and has assumed command from me. He does his own appraisal of the situation and size-up, determines structural stability, and if ok, continues to attack the fire. He has already called for the FAST truck, and an additional engine and squad company. EMS is also on the scene with ALS treating the occupants, and additional ALS unit is on the way.

    Bottom line....New construction + heavy fire + interior ops/roof ops = death. Get em out, and then worry about the crackerbox.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  11. #11
    Forum Member FiftyOnePride's Avatar
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    Default Re: backdraft .....

    Originally posted by jasper45
    Just a question for you (not trying to be a jerk) ......Why would you assign a RIT so soon into the operation? With a fairly good fire load here, and an obvious rescue scenario wouldn't RIT be better off going to work right away? They could stretch lines, or even be used to remove the occupants from the windows. I don't know anything about you or your department, so I'm just asking a question. Thanks
    I think what people (including myself) would say is its better to have 'em free and ready to go just in case, instead of waiting for them to do their other job, transition back to RIT team and go to work rescueing a firefighter.

    Always gotta take it into consideration, how does your dept. use their assigned RIT crew Jasper? I'm curious...

    BTW- didnt think your were trying to be a jerk, just as I'm not.
    Last edited by FiftyOnePride; 06-30-2004 at 11:10 PM.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Re: backdraft .....

    Originally posted by FiftyOnePride


    I think what people (including myself) would say is its better to have 'em free and ready to go just in case, instead of waiting for them to do their other job, transition back to RIT team and go to work rescueing a firefighter.

    Always gotta take it into consideration, how does your dept. use their assigned RIT crew Jasper? I'm curious...

    BTW- didnt think your were trying to be a jerk, just as I'm not.
    The fire in the scenario is more than a single engine can handle, at least effectively and safely. Having the 2nd due engine as RIT puts the 1st engine at risk as there will be no back up line. We are there to save people's lives, and this fire calls for more than one engine. Once all the important tactical functions have been met, then it's time to assign RIT (in this situation, where there is extreme life hazard at hand).

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    Default

    Okay Spotty, here we go again. very familiar with the second victim as a bonus. The fire showing on the top floor center window tells me the interior stairs are involved and need a line ASAP. I don't believe this is a room window but a stair window or a vaulted center hall.

    Further, this looks like two seperate apartments in this building, victim #1 is not in immediate danger.

    You state the first floor fire is due to an auto-exposure, assuming this is correct a line in the front door is first to perform a rapid knockdown of the stairwell then a push into the first floor front room...but not too deep, maybe the doorway of the apartment/room to hold fire in check and be positioned to hit the stairwell as needed.

    That being done, a member, two if available, to the top floor to remove victim #2. Victim #1 talked into the hallway for self evacuation once line is operating.

    Victims removed, line is withdrawn to the front door and garage is hit with second line, if available, if not, ECC can stang it for a quick knockdown. I know, I know, outside ops? Members operated above fire only long enough to remove known victims. Garage should be knocked down and structure assessed before first line re-enters the first floor.

  14. #14
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    From a truckies point of view:
    Ladder on the scene of a 2 story duplex, fire showing on the 1,4 corner, 2 victims at windows.

    My operator will ladder the window on the left and make that rescue. I will take a quick look around back. What are the conditions and are there better means of egress? Are there more people hanging out windows in the back? I and 2 FF will enter from the clearest egress with a water can and attempt rescue, possibly a clear window in the rear?

    Also thinking, where are the other victims? A duplex on an early Sunday morning, good chance of more people trapped.

  15. #15
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    Same basic report as everyone else ... fire showing from garage level and first floor with 2 rescues ..possibly more.
    Initial action would be to get a handline flowing on the fire in the garage from the exterior (one man) and then get a second line operating in the hallway the hallway to contain the fire and protect interior exposures. Not enough manpower on initial company to make both rescues so my plan is for them to hold the fire off until additional companies arrive. Initial engine has laid a supply line.

    Second due engine pumps the line and crew works on the rescues. Truck company assists rescues and begins primary search.

    3rd due engine splits resources ... 1 man assists firefighter operating line in working the garage .. they make interior attack. Rest of crew assists with firefighting on the living levels.

  16. #16
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Default fiftyonepride

    Sure be glad to answer :Our first alarm of fire response consists of 3 engine companies, 2 ladder companies, 1 MED unit and 2 battalion chiefs. Each engine and ladder company has 1 promoted officer (could be a lieutenant or captain) 1 promoted driver and 3 firefighters. Our ladder drivers do go to work, engine driver stays with the pump. MED units here do not do firefighting.As a general rule, we try to only use ladder companies as RIT. All truck companies have TIC, power saws and forced entry tools, our engine's have no power saws etc. This doesn't mean an engine can't be a RIT ....we as a dept just feel ladders are better suited here....For a stereotypical house fire, you may not even see us put a RIT into operation (sure the safety, NFPA guy's just stroked ). If there is a good amount of fire, we generally special call an extra ladder company, I think the east coasters have a tendency to call this a FAST truck (I know we stole that concept). Generally this ladder will be assigned as RIT. If a second alarm of fire is called our heavy rescue is also dispatched, and then they would serve as the RIT. We are quartered with an engine so we are able to go with 9 members and form 2 teams. (all in house are part of our rescue) One team goes to work, forcing doors, windows and placing ladders as needed, the other will stage in the front of the building and assemble tools that may be required. Hope this answers your question. Stay safe

  17. #17
    Forum Member FiftyOnePride's Avatar
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    Thank for answering that Jasper despite my wierd assumption about RIT with engine and ladder co.


    Personally I was thinking on my own dept.'s standpoint., despite that lack that would occur with strict engine response, our unfortunate policy of people responding straight to the scene would give us manpower to do RIT and other basic ops.

    Sorry if I didnt clarify.
    JLS
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  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    First of all we would be "C.H.A.O.S." - Chief Has Arrived On Scene either in the first due, or by PMV depending on where he was when the tones dropped, so that means I would be doing what I usually do - set up the Engine for pump ops, and be there for most of the event.

    I don't have an action plan at this point - however, Dal its a real good scenario because we do have a lot of structures of this type, newer, but they look a lot like this one. Also they are mostly on hill sides and not well accessable from the road etc. So I printed it out, with the picture and will present it to the Chief for his thoughts. After that, I might actually have something useful to add here. LOL Take care y'all!
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