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  1. #41
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default ???

    Originally posted by Bones42
    Damn! Again I find I'm doing things wrong. Didn't know that 9/11 was the basis for my SOP's/SOG's (which were written years before then).
    No one, that is no one said you were doing things wrong.
    I certainly didnt. All I ever said where is the standard?

    My state has this standard, I am guessing mainly because
    we work closely with aircraft and sea vessels contantly.

    My thing is after 9/11, a lot of people had to run out
    and get a leather helmet, cool. Or changed their turnout
    orders to black to look like the big city. Thats all fine.
    After all of that, I now have to follow suit and use non-fire desinated term? Not now.

    LASTLY- This is forum for people to discuss their opinions.
    Respect what I say as well as I do you. I never said "You
    have to do it this way!" Just because you dont like or
    agree with what I write, act the professional and leave the
    chip off of your shoulder and insults at home.

    I wam just following a standard. No one else
    has yet to produce one. Until you do, let it go.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 07-06-2004 at 05:04 PM.


  2. #42
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Me...

    Originally posted by HM604OH


    And in most academies, you would spend the next week discovering what hell truly is.
    Been there, done that. I now teach at an academy
    vs. attending. I just wouldnt have been so quick
    to yell at a student, "Your hand is burned!" I cant
    stand an Instructor who had to boost his ego this
    way.

    If he/she cant hit the button with a gloved hand, yeah,
    quickly take the glove off, activate and put it back
    on.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 07-06-2004 at 05:05 PM.

  3. #43
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    Default

    You'll notice many of our line officers keep one hand, sometimes both, ungloved. The bare hand can monitor overhead conditions and give early warning to members on the fire floor.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Default

    "Emergency Traffic, Firefighter Down" is very, very clear

    No, it's not. It's only clear within the definitions we accept for the words.

    "Procede with traffic" is a commonly used fire-service term for shutting off your lights & sirens and proceding to the scene with the normal flow of traffic. Does Emergency Traffic in this situation mean go lights & sirens because you have a firefighter down?

    If we're truly worried about crossing terms, why isn't it a problem for airplanes AND boats to use the term? After all, if only boats could use "mayday" you wouldn't be worried about searching the land for a possible plane down, would you?

    Prohibiting it's use for firefighting operations on the thought it might trigger a Coast Guard operation is sillyness, and if it's in the standard it needs to be removed.

    I concur with Bone's use of the two terms, and it is a well accepted *standard* in the U.S. -- written into many departmental SOPs as well as frequent, recent use in national trade journals.

    However, at the risk of proposing something even more universally plain english I think a better term than "Emergency Traffic" is "Radio Silence" -- once issued no one talks except at the direction of the authority issuing the radio silence or someone has true emergency conditions to report. And with a formal procedure to end Radio Silence either with a clearing the silence or directing a change in frequency, i.e. "Command clear on Radio Silence, normal radio usage may resume" or "Command all units, FAST operations to stay on Channel 7, all other units shift to Channel 5"

    ====================
    BTW, getting back to the gloves:

    We're trained to feel a door before opening it...

    http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/hfd/fire...y/July00CE.htm
    http://www.firehouse.com/training/dr...4/engine1.html

    http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Artic...D=feel%20glove

    Are we feeling these doors gloved? It sure takes a while for heat to go through fire gloves...

    Just a thought...
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

  5. #45
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Re: And again...

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    It is a standard in my FD and state and no one else here
    has been able to supply one yet other than articles.
    What standard would that be? You provided us with a link to an adobe page that says MAYDAY should not be used. I've never heard of this web site before, they don't sound like they are affiliated with NFPA nor are they using a CFR citation. Even if this site turns out to be California's version of NFPA I don't care, I'm not in California anymore (thank God) and have no intentions to return except to visit.

    You show me a national standard that says we should not use it, something like an NFPA, Code of Federal Regulation, or even an IFSTA standard. Show me a national standard for the use of MAYDAY at all. I spent considerable amount of time pouring through the CFRs last night looking for one, surprisingly there are very few refences to the word, mostly the references are either about false use of the word and the fines such use entails or the requirement that anyone who hears one must act. As far as I am concerned, unless it is specifically outlawed it is OK for use.
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  6. #46
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Default Re: ???

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    My thing is after 9/11, a lot of people had to run out
    and get a leather helmet, cool. Or changed their turnout
    orders to black to look like the big city. Thats all fine.
    After all of that, I now have to follow suit and use non-fire desinated term? Not now.
    *shakes head*

    Big deal. I fail to see how or why that would bother anyone. I certainly don't care what helmet people choose to wear, or what color their gear is. Imitation and flattery, ya know? And why does tradition have to be dragged into every discussion on here? I guess some people are hung up on it moreso than others. *shrug*

    Thanks to everyone for their input on the glove issue. I fully support the train-the-way-you-fight/fight-the-way-you-train mantra. But I still feel, if ya need to accomplish a potentially life-saving task and today's FF gloves are bogging you down, then you would remove a glove. That is how you would fight, so why not train that way? Why waste the time? And as e229lt has said, a bare hand can be useful regardless of what the book might say.

    The "distress" word issue has been quite interesting as well. It's been said already that it's probably more important to know when to call for help and to practice doing so, rather than worry about what code word/phrase is being used. I just think it makes sense to use a word that is never used except when one of our own is in serious trouble.

    Nothing more, nothing less Bou. No one has indicated why planes or ships would have a problem with FF's saying mayday. National search and rescue groups, the Coast Guard, etc... it's all been checked into already. So an appendix was adopted by DHS... BIG DEAL! It's a recommendation -- "SHOULD NOT" -- versus "WILL NOT." And when you think about when the term is being used, who the heck cares? If there are more compelling reasons for using a unique word that is internationally recognized as a distress signal, then why not do so? And it's a cop out to say "because of planes and ships" just as much as it is to say "I consider it a 24 hour period in May."
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-06-2004 at 06:23 PM.
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  7. #47
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oh yeah?

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    I know you dont like change, or
    someone telling you what to do, or even California.
    Oh yeah, I forgot that I didn't like this dig either.

    I love change... WHEN IT MAKES SENSE. If there is a compelling reason to do things a different way, I'm all for it. Whether it's to make the job easier, safer, better, etc... change can be great.

    THAT SAID... change just for the sake of "changing" is not always a good thing, especially when the change itself does not make sense. This has nothing to do with being progressive, adopting change, etc. It has to do with a UNIQUE, universally-recognized distress call.

    Mayday is.

    Everything else I've heard here isn't.

    AND...

    Remember that you West-coasters will ALWAYS trail us East-Coasters...










    ...by exactly 3 hours. lol
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-06-2004 at 06:21 PM.
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  8. #48
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    Default

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    My thing is after 9/11, a lot of people had to run out
    and get a leather helmet, cool. Or changed their turnout
    My turn outs are still tan PBI, my helmet is a Ben Franklin 2 (classic tactical tupperware), and my preferred tool is the Denver, all of which are unchanged since before 9-11. There is nothing which has changed in my FD as a result of the actions of FDNY on 9-11.

    On my helmet band tucked in with my chocks is an FDNY pin. On each of our trucks there is a "Never forget 9-11-01" sticker with a silhouette of the towers on the side window. Both are in memory of our brothers who gave all that day.

    I do not know of a single FD in my area which has made an operational change as a result of the actions of FDNY (there are other changes as a result of the increase in perception of the terrorist situation, but not as an homage to FDNY). If you can site one department that has, please do, but don't cast dubious innuendoes about as fact. Maybe in California there was a headlong rush to come up to east coast standards, but out here things continue pretty unabated as it was before that horrible day.
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  9. #49
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    Exclamation Back on track... Gloves on!

    You know, in a real situation, I would cautiously remove my glove if need be, but in training I would stress the need to do it with gloves on.

    You play like you practice. If you can perform the task with gloves on in practice you'll be better off in a real situation. After all who knows what will happen when the glove comes off, secondary collapse (you just fell through the weak floor, right?), drop and loose the glove, cut yourself on an unseen hazard, or a sudden degration of conditions.

    There are lots of skills we practice which we rarely use, such as venting with an axe when power saws are available. The reason we do this is so when the crap hit the fan we are not doing it for the first time in the smoke and heat. In this situation, if the radio can be activated with gloves on then everyone should learn to do it that way.

    If it is simply impossible to do gloved then the firefighters should attempt to overcome the problem, perhaps by using a tool such as the corner of a flashlight or the tip of a chock. The officers should note this problem and attempt to fix the problem, such as by reprograming the radio or setting in motion an attempt to replace the radios with more user friendly models.

    My $0.02
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  10. #50
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Default

    We use mayday for a firefighter trapped type situation. I am not worried about the control tower at Tweed sending out Air-Sea rescue, nor do I care. Everyone in our dept knows what it means. Everyone in every other department around us knows what it means. And I would bet that any random Joe Firefighter from any corner of the planet would get the idea as well.

    "Emergency Traffic" could mean anything. Mayday is pretty to the point, especially if thats all you can say.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  11. #51
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Default

    R-14,You knew better than to open this can of snakes.And especially with Bou! You operate with gloves on;PERIOD! If you can't run your mic with gloves on, get the boss to get you a "big button"mic or a vox.If you can't run your "mini 'biner"with your gloves on,come see me and I'll take you shopping and get you a better one.The biggest problem with taking a glove off in a fire enviornment is losing it.The more experienced in the outfit may not but I've run enough training schools to know that MOST either will lose their glove or cannot QUICKLY get it back on particularly when sweaty.Therefore they are taught to do essential tasks in gloves.And yes,whether or not Bou likes it;The EAST coast existed before anyone knew there was a territory to be named California so we have been doing it longer.Personally,I'm investing in Nevada desert so when California breaks off and falls into the Pacific I'm going to have some prime beach frontage.And Bou,before you blow a gasket,I've been to Ca on a number of occasions I just choose not to live there.My trees don't burn as fast or as often.T.C.

  12. #52
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default LOL...

    Originally posted by Rescue101
    And Bou,before you blow a gasket,I've been to Ca on a number of occasions I just choose not to live there.
    No gasket blown here bro, just laughing. Why didnt you stop
    by when you visited?

    -Bou

  13. #53
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Default

    I fully agree with remaining geared-up.

    However...

    If there is some time when a glove might hinder getting to an emergency ANI/ALI button (I'm a radio geek, and most of the radios today using "emergency" buttons are not compatible with the fingers on today's gloves)... I have to say, I will risk the injury to get help started. I'd try to protect myself by rolling over if possible or something to that effect.

    This is not a routine situation. And I'm all for practicing with gloves on, using creative solutions, etc. But to me, the delay caused with fumbling in a critical situation is not worth it.

    As for the carabiners, we have large ones. Sometimes you don't have what you need inside with you. Sometimes you just can't get things to go the way you want with gloves. If you have the time to fumble with big gloves on, by all means, keep them on. But if removing them will allow you to quickly accomplish critical task, I say don't even hesitate.

    Perhaps people are losing their gloves because they don't practice retaining them. I have been, and it now becomes my primary focus when I opt to remove it. I don't think this is one of those "always" and "never" situations.

    I'm all for more firefighter-friendly radios (especially in the lower price brackets), as well as better gloves. But even if that happened, I still maintain if you are having trouble getting something done with a glove on in a CRITICAL situation, shed the glove either between/under knees, or in a pocket.

    I'd rather fumble getting the glove on with the cavalry on the way, than die trying to call for help fully gloved. You obviously have to weigh the risks of doing so. Yes, there is always the potential for something worse to happen. I think some common sense and situational awareness can go a long way in making this decision.
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  14. #54
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    Default

    I think it definitely depends on the experience level of the students. It probably would be best to teach new recruits to do everything with gloves on. Veterans with some actual experience in fires probably know when it's ok to take a glove off and when a situation is dire enough to suffer a little pain to get a critical task such as calling for help accomplished.

    I won't pile on our California brother except to state that Mayday is the standard in my department and the county we operate in. That's all that really matters to me, especially in a firefighter down situation.

    Dal also brings up a good point. When a Mayday is called in my department/county, the dispatcher broadcasts a unique emergency alert tone and advises "The air is closed for a Mayday for station XX."
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    Default Gloves ?

    The only thing I use my firefighting gloves for is during car/vehical fires...in 15 years of firefighting my hands have never been burned or warmed?gotten hot for that matter,I always use unlined work gloves. You got everything buttoned up tight and I know if my hands start warming up it's time to leave or it's proably to late.

  16. #56
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Default

    Hmmm......should I take my gloves off after I deploy my fire shelter? What do I do when the radio melts?

    **Button, button.....who's got the button?

    Excellent discussion, by the way. For the most part, people have acted very civil. Some sarcasm, of course...but quite civil.

    Nice job everyone!

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  17. #57
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default ???

    Originally posted by NJFFSA16
    Excellent discussion, by the way. For the most part, people have acted very civil. Some sarcasm, of course...but quite civil.

    Nice job everyone!
    Are you kidding, I got beat up in here..."Mayday! Mayday!"
    LOL!

  18. #58
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Default Steadying the 105

    Looking carefully,R14 entering the crosshairs,FIRE! Aren't you the same guy that was saying your dispatch radios aren't setup for the panic alarm?Therefore the gloves stay on and it's a moot point! Jeesh,my whole life is crisis control!Now I got a crisis!I've got my 40 in for the week with a 'fridge full of steak and cold beer.What am I to do?I think I'll take my gloves off and go fire the grill! Tah tah, T.C.

  19. #59
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Default In summary...

    A burned hand: painful

    Dying in a fire while trying to activate an emergency button while keeping the gloves on: A waste of life and a risk of being eulogized as "he was a good firefighter, but in this situation, he was a dumb (expletive)!"


    I'll take the 1st option, thank you.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  20. #60
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Talking I predict that Gonzo will______.

    Just as predictable as the sun,Hehe T.C.

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