1. #51
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    R-14,You knew better than to open this can of snakes.And especially with Bou! You operate with gloves on;PERIOD! If you can't run your mic with gloves on, get the boss to get you a "big button"mic or a vox.If you can't run your "mini 'biner"with your gloves on,come see me and I'll take you shopping and get you a better one.The biggest problem with taking a glove off in a fire enviornment is losing it.The more experienced in the outfit may not but I've run enough training schools to know that MOST either will lose their glove or cannot QUICKLY get it back on particularly when sweaty.Therefore they are taught to do essential tasks in gloves.And yes,whether or not Bou likes it;The EAST coast existed before anyone knew there was a territory to be named California so we have been doing it longer.Personally,I'm investing in Nevada desert so when California breaks off and falls into the Pacific I'm going to have some prime beach frontage.And Bou,before you blow a gasket,I've been to Ca on a number of occasions I just choose not to live there.My trees don't burn as fast or as often.T.C.

  2. #52
    Permanently Removed
    CALFFBOU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    6,520

    Default LOL...

    Originally posted by Rescue101
    And Bou,before you blow a gasket,I've been to Ca on a number of occasions I just choose not to live there.
    No gasket blown here bro, just laughing. Why didnt you stop
    by when you visited?

    -Bou

  3. #53
    dazed and confused
    Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    I fully agree with remaining geared-up.

    However...

    If there is some time when a glove might hinder getting to an emergency ANI/ALI button (I'm a radio geek, and most of the radios today using "emergency" buttons are not compatible with the fingers on today's gloves)... I have to say, I will risk the injury to get help started. I'd try to protect myself by rolling over if possible or something to that effect.

    This is not a routine situation. And I'm all for practicing with gloves on, using creative solutions, etc. But to me, the delay caused with fumbling in a critical situation is not worth it.

    As for the carabiners, we have large ones. Sometimes you don't have what you need inside with you. Sometimes you just can't get things to go the way you want with gloves. If you have the time to fumble with big gloves on, by all means, keep them on. But if removing them will allow you to quickly accomplish critical task, I say don't even hesitate.

    Perhaps people are losing their gloves because they don't practice retaining them. I have been, and it now becomes my primary focus when I opt to remove it. I don't think this is one of those "always" and "never" situations.

    I'm all for more firefighter-friendly radios (especially in the lower price brackets), as well as better gloves. But even if that happened, I still maintain if you are having trouble getting something done with a glove on in a CRITICAL situation, shed the glove either between/under knees, or in a pocket.

    I'd rather fumble getting the glove on with the cavalry on the way, than die trying to call for help fully gloved. You obviously have to weigh the risks of doing so. Yes, there is always the potential for something worse to happen. I think some common sense and situational awareness can go a long way in making this decision.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  4. #54
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    1,719

    Default

    I think it definitely depends on the experience level of the students. It probably would be best to teach new recruits to do everything with gloves on. Veterans with some actual experience in fires probably know when it's ok to take a glove off and when a situation is dire enough to suffer a little pain to get a critical task such as calling for help accomplished.

    I won't pile on our California brother except to state that Mayday is the standard in my department and the county we operate in. That's all that really matters to me, especially in a firefighter down situation.

    Dal also brings up a good point. When a Mayday is called in my department/county, the dispatcher broadcasts a unique emergency alert tone and advises "The air is closed for a Mayday for station XX."
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

  5. #55
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    2

    Default Gloves ?

    The only thing I use my firefighting gloves for is during car/vehical fires...in 15 years of firefighting my hands have never been burned or warmed?gotten hot for that matter,I always use unlined work gloves. You got everything buttoned up tight and I know if my hands start warming up it's time to leave or it's proably to late.

  6. #56
    Sr. Information Officer
    NJFFSA16's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    25 NW of the GW
    Posts
    8,434

    Default

    Hmmm......should I take my gloves off after I deploy my fire shelter? What do I do when the radio melts?

    **Button, button.....who's got the button?

    Excellent discussion, by the way. For the most part, people have acted very civil. Some sarcasm, of course...but quite civil.

    Nice job everyone!

    **(The quote spoken by Wonka in the Secret inventing room, "Button Button, Who's Got the Button?" is From an old children's game of the same title.)
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  7. #57
    Permanently Removed
    CALFFBOU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    6,520

    Default ???

    Originally posted by NJFFSA16
    Excellent discussion, by the way. For the most part, people have acted very civil. Some sarcasm, of course...but quite civil.

    Nice job everyone!
    Are you kidding, I got beat up in here..."Mayday! Mayday!"
    LOL!

  8. #58
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default Steadying the 105

    Looking carefully,R14 entering the crosshairs,FIRE! Aren't you the same guy that was saying your dispatch radios aren't setup for the panic alarm?Therefore the gloves stay on and it's a moot point! Jeesh,my whole life is crisis control!Now I got a crisis!I've got my 40 in for the week with a 'fridge full of steak and cold beer.What am I to do?I think I'll take my gloves off and go fire the grill! Tah tah, T.C.

  9. #59
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default In summary...

    A burned hand: painful

    Dying in a fire while trying to activate an emergency button while keeping the gloves on: A waste of life and a risk of being eulogized as "he was a good firefighter, but in this situation, he was a dumb (expletive)!"


    I'll take the 1st option, thank you.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  10. #60
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Talking I predict that Gonzo will______.

    Just as predictable as the sun,Hehe T.C.

  11. #61
    dazed and confused
    Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    Bailing out of ladders and windows isn't the safest thing in the world either.

    But sometimes it can be the safest option, even if it's a "one in a million" type of situation.

    There's no question there are bigger and better things to worry about than this. Sorry if I seem to be focusing on it a little too much. I just found it odd that someone would want to TRAIN FF's to fumble, when the FF knew that s/he could accopmlish the task even if it wasn't by the book.

    101 we just don't have the receiving unit in dispatch yet, which will be another hoop to jump through. I'm sure we will soon though.

    And like someone brought up, if ya can't get the button, then just start in with your "Mayday Mayday Mayday, L.U.N.A.R." broacast. The emergency transmission is desirable because it will wake a dispacther up, and in many radios will key the mic for the firefighter for a period of time. Some advanced systems will allow dispatch to re-key the radio, cause the radio to alarm, etc.

    When we have the system finally up and running, I will encourage people to do what it takes to trip the alarm.

    PS Someone picked me up some OSHA FF gloves today... what a difference. Still not extrication glove thin, but a lot better. Of course it is not "NFPA" though, so I'll just have to use them to throw snowballs this winter... that will be my defense at least! That, or, "But Chief! They're just overhaul gloves!"
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-07-2004 at 11:58 PM.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  12. #62
    Forum Member
    Fire304's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    At the Helm
    Posts
    1,174

    Default

    Originally posted by Resq14
    I just found it odd that someone would want to TRAIN FF's to fumble,
    Sorry buddy, I have to take issue with this one...

    We are not teaching the FF to fumble, we are letting him learn a difficult skill in a controled enviroment rather than have him fumble in the uncontrolled
    enviroment.

    Do you remeber trying to tie knots with your gloves on? It was silly, it was impossible to get the knots right, we'll never do this in the field, right? Yet once we practiced it it became possible, and now (hopefully) you can do it w/o much difficulty.

    How about the first time you tried to pack up for Mod 2? The sadistic instructors called "Time" and you barely had your pack on your back, nevermind be breathing air with no skin showing.

    But now, as a result of all that fumbling, you can get dressed in the back of E-1 at 2am while still half asleep with me driving and do it in under 2 minutes.

    Reading the article, most of the guys who fell into the pit (which I thought was a very cool training device) didn't even try to call for help right off, they had to be reminded to call. Was that fumbling with their life? They were learning a difficult skill (calling for help) in a controlled situation so when the crap hits the fan it will be easier to do.

    If you absolutely need to, sure pull the glove off, especially if it is in a controlled situation where you can see there are no immeadiate secondary hazards. But then again, if you are in such a situation maybe its better to take a breath and take you time to get the radio out and do it with gloves on.

    If you can get the job done with the glove on, in a reasonable time, you will be safer that if you take the glove off. The time to learn that skill is while laying in a box of pool noodles in a training facility with a sadistic and petty instructor standing over you, not while under a pile of debris in the basement of a wharehouse where taking your glove off will almost certainly result in minor injuries to your hand.

    I'm with you on this one TC!
    ______________________________ __________________
    If you are new to posting please CLICK HERE for an essential lesson
    ______________________________ __________________
    A bad day in the boat is better than a good day in the office. And in my case the office is a boat!

    IACOJ Fire Boat 1

  13. #63
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default Gotcha!

    And the best part of this is that not only did it stir up a very nice debate but 14 either didn't notice or didn't acknowledge that I'm going to go take my gloves off and grill steaks.He thought he'd catch me sleeping on the emergency button/radio deal too but that didn't happen.Gotta keep a close eye on you two,I don't want you sleeping on the job,VBG T.C.

  14. #64
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Halligan84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Blackwood NJ, USA
    Posts
    816

    Default

    We don't have activated emergency buttons, however they are on the radios. Here is my take on them, tell firefighters to forget them. This isn't about gloves its about carrying a piece of communications equipment designed for cops and not us. The amount of time you would have to spend to activate that thing would be far better spent trying to escape and announcing "MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY" HFD66 has a great post started that talks about cultural change and this is a great place to start. Here we are arguing with each other as to when we should purposely endure an injury to make our equipment work properly.. what part of this isn't stupid?? There is something to get the IAFC, IAFF and the rest of the alphabet working on.... useful radios. Firefighters.. tell the chief to stop buying the latest and greatest and buy radios you can work with gloves and change channels by feel.

  15. #65
    dazed and confused
    Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    There's a differece between tying knots and someone (maybe us) dying. Yes, a knot might be used to move some critical piece of yada yada yada...

    I am talking about the "one in a million" (maybe more frequent?) "oh$h!t" situations. That is what the article was talking about as well. Not hoisting hose, not throwing ladders, not operating a pump panel.

    We should all recognize that ANY delay is too much of a delay when you are in need of assistance. You are already behind the ball. That is the whole point of the training they were doing, to recognize trouble and to decrease the time it took for FF's to figure this out!

    And let's be realistic here! What are firefighters dying from when they become lost in a building. In most cases, are they burning? OR in most cases are they running out of air in a bad air environment? Is it fair to say that at floor level, many could probably remove a glove safely? That's pure speculation, of course. But I bet there's some truth to it.

    Practice til the cows come home. I will too. But when you're in the situation and you can't hit the button (which I guarantee 304 is far harder than you're owning up to, especially when it is in service on our radios)... you do what ya gotta do. Not hiding anything on that 101. It's not a hard system to install and I bet we'll have it up and running this year. I work the other end of it in a neighboring town so I'm familiar.

    I guess I can't say it any better than CaptG already did.

    When configured properly, a system involving "FF Down" alerts IS valuable, and I think I stated in another post why. But along with being realistic, if all you can find is the PTT button to issue a Mayday, do it.
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-08-2004 at 12:58 PM.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  16. #66
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    235

    Default

    Originally posted by Resq14

    Practice til the cows come home. But when you're in the situation and you can't hit the button (which I guarantee 304 is far harder than you're owning up to, especially when it is in service on our radios)... you do what ya gotta do.
    It looks like your department approaches training differently than we do. Rather than practicing "until the cows come home," we find it more effective to practice until the firefighter can activate their radio faster with gloves on than taking the time to remove gloves. Adding the extra step of removing the gloves uses time that could be better spent calling for help.

    It looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

  17. #67
    dazed and confused
    Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    [sarcasm]

    *stops banging head on wall*

    I give in. Firefighters, never remove your gloves inside a building. There will never be a time it is appropriate to do so, regardless of consequences. See NFPA_____/OSHA_____/NIOSH___, as well as IFSTA FF1 Chapter ___.

    [/sarcasm]

    I was/am being dramatic with the practicing comment obviously. But it also shows that even if we have FF's demonstrate proficiency with a skill, it does not stop there. We keep on doing it so that perishable skills don't fade away. So yes, we will practice until the cows come home. To see a firefighter take 15 tries one night in training to finally push that little button gloved, and maybe demonstrate another 10 times that s/he can do it... terrific.

    Fast-forward 3 years when that FF becomes disoriented in a building, inevitable distress ensues, and a sympathetic nervous response REDUCES THE BODY'S ABILITY TO PERFORM TASKS REQUIRING FINE MOTOR SKILLS. It could be impossible for the FF to try to finesse a gloved digit into a small groove to push a button. What then? Is everyong that says "stay gloved" still going to say "stay gloved?"

    I bet the song changes. And my point with training is that for it to be GOOD training, it needs to have some common sense, flexibility, and situational awareness built into it -- ESPECIALLY in these types of circumstances. The song shouldn't have to change... consistency will lengthen the retention time of perishable skills.

    OBVIOUSLY any reasonale person will recognize that even with extensive practice/training/education, a FF might not be able to hit the darn button with big NFPA gloves on. That is all I am saying. People seem to be reading into this WAY too much.
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-08-2004 at 01:18 PM.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  18. #68
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    235

    Default

    Originally posted by Resq14
    [sarcasm]

    *stops banging head on wall*

    I give in. Firefighters, never remove your gloves inside a building.
    Glad to see you are coming around (sarcasm)

    I actually feel that the instructor was wrong in this situation. The proper approach would have been to use this as a learning opportunity and demonstrate a better method for getting to the radio. If they don't have a better method, then they have no business being critical of a firefighter attempting to accomplish a task the only way that they know.

  19. #69
    dazed and confused
    Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    Originally posted by HM604OH
    If they don't have a better method, then they have no business being critical of a firefighter attempting to accomplish a task the only way that they know.
    Agreed.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  20. #70
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    14,my very finely feathered FRIEND.I'm not going to bust on you about that damn radio button,I KNOW it's too small.But I will offer a thought that I posted in another thread.Part of the reason we have issues with FF's down is that because of vanity or anything else you want to call it the "mayday"isn't transmitted until it's TOO LATE! I submit that I would rather have a FF call a "mayday" early on in a problematic situation than wait 'til they are up to their arse in alligators.Ya, they might get a little razzing but at least they're around to razz.I don't totally agree with Ray either,even though he has some excellent points.I want it all,competent first in,good second due PLUS an effective Fast/RIT team.Oh,and when you've practiced until you think it can't get any better;......DO IT AGAIN! Hehe T.C.

  21. #71
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    I did the same thing in a training to make a connection with a small carabiner that I was unable to do with a gloved hand. Someone leading the drill made a similar comment to the "You just burned your hand."
    Question 1.

    What the hell were you doing using a caribiner that is too small to use with fire gloves on?

    Question 2.

    At the debrief, did you say "We need caribiners we can use with fire gloves on".

    If not you have done nothing proactive towards safety for yourself our your Brothers.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  22. #72
    Forum Member
    Fire304's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    At the Helm
    Posts
    1,174

    Default

    Its not only about the heat. The worse injury I've ever recieved on the fireground happened while helping another FF take his pack off. All I did was grab the straps and set the pack down for the guy. I went to unbend my fingers and a blinding pain shot up my arm. It hurt so bad I almost dropped to my knees. A shard of glass that had been on the strap had entered my finger between the 2nd and 3rd joint of my left index finger (I'll show you the scar next time I see you), over an inch of it was imbedded into my skin.

    You take you glove off in poor visibility and slash your hand open you just went from being lost and low on air to being severly handicapped. Next to our eyes (which we've already lost due to poor vis) the hands are probably the hardest part of the body to deal without. Injure your hand in a MAYDAY situation means you can't effectivly crawl anymore, you can't carry your tool and stay low, you can't tie the knot in the rescue line they drop to you, and forget trying to activate that little button on the radio, you need one hand to dig the radio out and the other to push the button.

    Will I never take the glove off? No, I won't say that, but I would really hesitate before I did. I know its pretty damned hard to get the wet glove back on in a good situation, never mind if things go from bad to worse, and forget it if I had just injured my hand.

    WHile typing this reply I put my gloves on and tried it. Assuming its going to be the little orange button on top of the radio I had no problem activating once I figured out that you have to use the tip of the thumb and not the pad of the index finger. I didn't even need to pull the radio out of its pocket, just open the flap. Now if I had never done that before and was knee deep in trouble I would have been forced to take my glove off. But now that I've been "trained" and I'm going to practice it a few more times I am certain that I can activate it quicker with gloves on than taking the time to remove then redonning the gloves.

    And that was my point on the knots and SCBA, you do it often enough it becomes second nature. What seemed impossible at first becomes routine with practice. I maintain that while you may be able to activate your radio quicker with gloves off, the time you save is lost removing the gloves.

    Furthermore, removing the gloves greatly increases your risk of suffering a disabling injury. By learning how to active the radio with gloves on I can do so without fear of sustaining an injury or losing the gloves.

    Halligan84, I can't tell you how much I argee with your sentiments about the radios we use.
    ______________________________ __________________
    If you are new to posting please CLICK HERE for an essential lesson
    ______________________________ __________________
    A bad day in the boat is better than a good day in the office. And in my case the office is a boat!

    IACOJ Fire Boat 1

  23. #73
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Talking Where did I put that wall cushion?

    Ah Kiwi,Welcome back;we've missed you and your "pearls".Good points all.Pardon me now,I've got to go get a wall cushion for 14.T.C.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register