1. #1
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    Arrow Keep those gloves on?

    Great article if you haven't read it yet:

    "Calling a Mayday: The Drill" http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=10&id=32431

    When I read it, a point jumped out at me that we encountered in a training we had a couple months ago.

    "The frustration was evident when some tried to remove a glove to find the button. Instructors did not allow this. They were prompted, "You just burned your hand. Put the glove back on."

    I did the same thing in a training to make a connection with a small carabiner that I was unable to do with a gloved hand. Someone leading the drill made a similar comment to the "You just burned your hand."

    Personally, I have no problem taking off a glove provided that I don't lose it IF it will accomplish something that might save a life. Would I take off a glove to make my radio send an emergency signal, even if I might burn my hand? You bet. Would I take a glove off to use a small carabiner to aid in moving a downed firefighter, even if I might burn my hand? You bet.

    Sure, the solutions are:
    - better fire gloves
    - radios designed for firefighters and calling mayday
    - rescue equipment designed to be used with heavy gloves
    etc.

    I just question telling people to fumble in a glove when in reality they could quickly accomplish a task that might end up saving a life. I'm sure it's probably not NFPA/OSHA/NIOSH approved, but oh well.

    Agree/disagree?
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    I agree.

    I also think we need...

    - Better gloves. This is tough. You have to have some thickness since that translates into thermal protection. But, with new materials, I think we can get less bulky gloves.

    The radio and such is easy and has alreay been done. A radio mic has a big button, and there are hands free coms systesm out there already. The only problem for most FDs is $$$

    Equipment to be used with the gear on, yes, that is how it should be designed.

    But you are right, if the glove has to come off to save a life, then do it, but get it back on fast. In a lot of situations you wont get burt, it has to be a judgement call then and there.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

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    I would like to agree ...........gotta do what you gotta do......
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    A more immediate fix would be to train as you fight and keep your gloves on. I have taught a number of RIT courses in firehouses where the members had not only never seen the RIT equipment on their rigs let alone drilled with it in the dark or in the smoke.

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    Lightbulb whoa! rational idea in progress!

    The buttons on our speaker/mikes are large enough to push with a gloved hand... so why can't the radio manufacturers make a similar sized button on another part, let's say the front of the of the speaker/mike, for example, where the Motorola logo is on my mine? It can be the same color as the itty bitty one on the radio itself.

    Glove technology: why can't we have a glove with the dexterity of extrication gloves that have the same thermal protection as our standard issue leather? Somewhere in the deep dark recesses of Dupont's laboratories there must be a formula for a fire, heat and cut resistant material that would give us better dexterity, yet offer the same protection
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Originally posted by Halligan84
    A more immediate fix would be to train as you fight and keep your gloves on.
    I agree and we do. But to say that you must *always* keep your gloves on... I think we set people up for failure and don't allow them to keep the big picture in mind. There are times when you need the dexterity that today's fire gloves simply can't provide. I completely agree we should have some advances in equipment, including gloves. And some redesign of radios would be nice too.

    Anyway, I'd rather encourage people not to waste time under these circumstances... yank a glove and KEEP TRACK OF IT either in the other hand or between/under the knees, accomplish the task at hand, and re-glove as soon as possible. Right or wrong, that's what I tell people at least.
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-05-2004 at 10:57 PM.
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    Default Me...

    1. I would tell the instructor to "Bite me." I would
    take my glove off to get the radio transmission out.
    Plus, I would do it in a low lying are away from the
    heat if I could.

    2. I know you will disagree, but "Mayday" is not
    a fire ground term. It is strickly reserved for air
    and sea use just like "bulk head", "lavaorty" and
    "galley".

    "Clear text" is the correct terminology to
    be used. Terms like "Emergency traffic" are
    recommended.

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    Talking Agree on #1, Disagree on #2

    Ehh I don't want to hijack this, but we've discussed this before. I think "mayday" is clear text and plain english. You can't completely "uncode" our world. Look to ICS/ICM. We use codes to describe locations... Division 1, Subdivision 2, Alpha side, etc. Why? Brevity isn't the reason. Standardization is. I think Burton had another very good article on the topic a little while ago:

    We Have Permission To Use The Word Mayday
    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...nId=10&id=3679

    A great discussion we had:
    http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...823#post300823

    I maintain that we should differentiate between an "emergency" or "priority" situation, and an "oh $h!t, save my *****" situation. Not all emergencies are ours.
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-05-2004 at 11:17 PM.
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    Default Oh yeah?

    You want clear text? Then to me, "mayday" is a 24 hour
    period in the 5th month of a calendar year. Plan and
    clear.

    Please keep in mind that California's FireScope was
    adapted as a national ICS/IMS standard by the Dept.
    of Homeland Security. I know you dont like change, or
    someone telling you what to do, or even California.
    But "mayday" is strickly reserved for sea and air
    use.

    Just because it was used on 9/11, did not make it a
    national standard. If it did become a national
    benchmark, please provide me the information. I
    go by what works, not because I saw it on TV or
    some author told you it was "ok" to use.

    Please do me the favor and look at this link BEFORE you
    come back in here and blast me, ok? Thanks.

    Here is the link for reference. Please scroll down half
    way.

    Glossery for fire ground terms.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 07-05-2004 at 11:25 PM.

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    Wow, I tend to think you didn't read the link to Burton's article I posted, nor the prior conversation we had.

    I don't care if it's Californian, Georgian, or Alaskan... so that attitude can be checked at the door. We're all on the same team. And FYI it's not only found in "firescope", it is found in the 2002 NFPA 1500 standard, Appendix A.8.1.11.

    Anyway, this was about gloves, not confusing pilots of airplanes and captains of ships on frequencies separated by many megahertz of radio spectrum...WHEN A FIREFIGHTER'S LIFE IS ON THE LINE. But what the heck, here we go.

    From the link you posted, we've already discussed it but here we ago anyway:
    "Mayday. An international distress signal. The term Mayday should not be used for fire ground communications which could cause confusion with the term used for aeronautical and nautical emergencies."

    And Dr. Clark writes, "Captian Steve Sawyer US Coast Guard, Alternate Chairman, NSRC wrote me back, hear are some excerpts: 'Use of MAYDAY under such circumstances is permissible under U.S. law and regulations [the ones sighted were International Radio Regulations (2001), Paragraph 4-9 and FCC rule (Part 80.311)]. The radio frequencies concerned are different from the aeronautical and maritime frequencies, so use of the term should not cause confusion. Further, any effective means of calling for help is authorized under other national and international radio regulation for true distress situations. The U.S. has taken no action to preclude use of the word Mayday by endangered firefighters."

    And "some author"... Burton Clark? Dr. Burton A. Clark? Obviously you are not aware who he is, nor have you heard him speak.

    Even your "firescope" states mayday is an international distress signal... therefore BY DEFINITION you know what it means! You might not like it or agree, but you can not honestly tell us that you don't know what it means! It's common knowledge, and it is defined in numerous documents.

    Emergency traffic can mean many things. At its heart, mayday means only one thing.
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-05-2004 at 11:43 PM.
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    Default I did...

    Originally posted by Resq14
    Wow, I tend to think you didn't read the link to Burton's article I posted, nor the prior conversation we had.
    I did go back and read it. In fact, look at page 1 mid way
    down and see who else posted on the subject.

    And I did read the article. Just because some author "gave
    you permission", makes it legal and law?

    Again, I have provided a link with a reconized benchmark,
    and I ask that use do the same on the sunject.

    To be very blunt, but respectful. The FDNY used "mayday"
    on 9/11. So because of that day, the term "mayday" became
    the un-official standard? So when it does become the national standard, then I will buy into it along with leather helmets
    and black turnouts.

    Until then, I go with clear test. "Emergency Traffic, Firefighter Down" is very, very clear and direct vs.
    mayday vs. hayday vs. hoselay vs. my way vs. stay way vs.
    payday vs. maytag. Because radio messages NEVER get confused
    on the other end, right?

    I think the US fire service is going in the wrong direction
    adapting this term. Sounds like NFPA is doin the right thing
    keeping "mayday" out of the picture.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 07-06-2004 at 01:00 AM.

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    Default

    Once again,

    "Dr. Clark writes, "Captain Steve Sawyer US Coast Guard, Alternate Chairman, NSRC wrote me back, here are some excerpts:

    'Use of MAYDAY under such circumstances is permissible under U.S. law and regulations [the ones sighted were International Radio Regulations (2001), Paragraph 4-9 and FCC rule (Part 80.311)]. The radio frequencies concerned are different from the aeronautical and maritime frequencies, so use of the term should not cause confusion. Further, any effective means of calling for help is authorized under other national and international radio regulation for true distress situations. The U.S. has taken no action to preclude use of the word Mayday by endangered firefighters."

    And I saw you posted in the other thread back then... surprisingly, no one agreed with you then either.
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-05-2004 at 11:49 PM.
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    Default And again...

    The Dept. of Homeland Security has adapted a standard for
    the nation. It clearly says "mayday" is reserved for air
    and sea terms.

    I will give it to you when you call your bathroom a
    "latrine", your kitchen "a galley" and the walls in
    your home a "bulkhead."

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    I wouldn't dare... Tom Ridge and a SWAT team might bust in and arrest me!

    (sarcasm if it wasn't obvious)

    Rather than dance around the issue Bou, I'm addressing it and agreeing with Dr. Clark. I'm not worried about DHS and whomever else might have a problem with it.

    I'm worried about hearing something that will immediately tell me someone is in trouble, no ifs ands or buts.

    Anway I'd like to continue this tonight but it's nearing bed time and I have to hit the latrine (or is it lavatory like you first said?), grab a quick bite from the galley, and finish painting my bulkheads!



    PS Most of us can think on our own. I find the 9/11 remarks to be a little cheezy and tasteless.
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-06-2004 at 12:02 AM.
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    The term MAYDAY means a firefighter is in a life or death situation.
    "It clearly says "mayday" is reserved for air and sea terms. "
    Last time I checked I don't share our fireground frequency with any ships or airplanes. The word emergency is used on the fireground and on our radio from time to time. MAYDAY is unique and that is what our call for help should be.

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    Default

    Originally posted by Resq14
    Anway I'd like to continue this tonight but it's nearing bed time and I have to hit the latrine (or is it lavatory like you first said?), grab a quick bite from the galley, and finish painting my bulkheads!
    Fine...And dont forget to make your rack when you wake up
    in the morning.

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    Default Where?

    Originally posted by ADSNWFLD
    The term MAYDAY means a firefighter is in a life or death situation.
    And please tell me where this is the standard so I can
    teach future Firefighters.

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    Lightbulb Re: Where?

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU


    And please tell me where this is the standard so I can
    teach future Firefighters.
    Sourece: http://www.firescope.org/ics-big-fog...0-1Chptr12.pdf

    "Mayday. An international distress signal."

    Sorry, couldn't resist. The rest of that defintion can rot in H-E-double hockey sticks.

    My rack is alway ship-shape, Bou.
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    Default O, last post...

    Originally posted by Resq14


    Sourece: http://www.firescope.org/ics-big-fog...0-1Chptr12.pdf

    "Mayday. An international distress signal."

    Sorry, couldn't resist. The rest of that defintion can rot in H-E-double hockey sticks.
    An international distress signal reserved for sea and air
    purposes.

    Again and this will be my last posting, FIND A STANDARD,
    ANY STANDARD TO POST HERE OTHER THAN AN ARTICLE. I HAVE.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 07-06-2004 at 12:51 AM.

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    Default

    You never know Resq14, airplanes and the USCG could be confused and start a search pattern which would interfere with our efforts if they heard us use "their" terms. After all, only 4,260,000 hertz separate VHF 16 from our "State fire" channel.

    “Emergency Traffic" has the potential to be mistaken for chatter between the fire police, as in "only let emergency traffic through". There are no words which could be confused with MAYDAY that might be heard on a fireground (unless your FD talks about Payday while working). As someone who makes a living on the water and occasionally responds to "MAYDAY" calls I can tell you the word has the unique property of being very distinct and clear. There is no doubt that the person calling is asking for help. "Hey Carl, some jerky communist is hollering its May Day on the radio, doesn't he know it's November?" "No, I think he's talking about how back in the department's hayday there were no idiots in it Lenny"

    When I took my first get-out-alive course it was taught by some of the pioneers of RIT and firefighter rescue, and they taught us how to use MAYDAY, not 9-11, not "some author." The reason it was used on 9-11 is that is what those guys were taught (possibly by some of the same people I learned it from).

    As for change, it was a change, before we were introduced to the term there was no standard method of asking for help, and most people didn't want to talk about it, we certainly didn't train for it, like talking about a will, it was bad juju. Now every FF in my FD knows what the word means and is instructed to use it should they get into trouble. Only a communist would assume it was a date.

    Here are some others who use the term:
    http://pychealth.com/CFD-QA-Program...ighterdown.html
    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/ar...12&sectionId=14
    http://www.firescue.com/NewCourses.html
    http://www.emsguides.com/fire-main.shtml
    http://www.jems.com/firerescue/exclus03/e0211h.html

    and that's just a few of the 5960 hits google returned on "firefighter mayday rescue"

    And for the record, there are no latrines nor lavatories on a ship, its a "head."
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    Default Re: O, last post...

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU


    An international distress signal reserved for sea and land
    purposes.
    At least he agrees, sea and land! Last I checked, we operate on sea and land, right?
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    Default

    LOL.

    I'm such a landlubber, 304. I should've known better about the "head." haha


    Ohhhhhhhhh wellllllll, I just know that I will be communicating "mayday" if i am in trouble, and i am 101% confident that the people around me will immediately understand that I am in danger, even if that's all I am able to communicate.

    AND I'll take off a glove momentarily if I need to do it! haha so, there!

    Someone asked about standards... what about ladder bails, rapelling from windows, etc. Are there standards on these? Not to my knowledge. Is it still important to at least be familiar with this stuff? Yes. Standards aren't everything.
    Last edited by Resq14; 07-06-2004 at 12:49 AM.
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    Sneaky, he edited his post, hehehe.
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    Default Re: Re: O, last post...

    Originally posted by Fire304


    At least he agrees, sea and land! Last I checked, we operate on sea and land, right?
    Oh wow, you got me on a typo. It is "air" and "sea", not land.
    I will go back and edit. You must be looking pretty hard to have to resort to that one.

    I am still waiting for the national benchmark
    regarding "mayday" as the standard.

    Lastly and again, it was widely used by the FDNY on 9/11,
    but not adapted as a standard. Give me a standard, please.
    Not articles.

    After 9/11- Were all of us supposted to change everything
    to match the terms used that day?
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 07-06-2004 at 01:06 AM.

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    Default

    MAYDAY MAYDAY thread hyjack in progres...



    I was hoping to hear more on the originaly topic then I clicked this one.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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