1. #1
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    Default Smoothbore Vs. Vindicator Vs. Saberjet Vs. Combi POK

    I am not trying to start a big battle royal...realy.

    What I am trying to do is slect a good nozzle fast, I dont have anyway to test them first hand, and we need them yesterday.

    Our problem is with out pumper. It is an 84 pierce that has served well, but its getting a bit long in the teeth. The tank lining, some sort of epoxy I believe, is flacking off in nickle and smaller pieces, makes its way down the hose and plugs up our fancy scmancy TFT combination automatic nozzles. You get about 300 gallons of flow and then it drops off fast to a trickle.

    Not good. The long term fix, a new poly tank or new pumper, is going to be a ways off.

    So the district board has authorized the purchase of a set of smooth bore nozzles as an interim fix. We are hoping we can keep the pumper in service with the smooth bore nozzles.

    Which brings me to the topic at thand. What nozzle would you knowledgable folks suggest given that:

    - There will fore sure be debre in the line.

    The contenders are:

    - Clasic smooth bore. We dont have a lot of experience with smoother bores, just on our CAFS unit. What tip size gives good reach and some impact force? Are all smooth bores created equal?

    - Vindicator. Thse are very interesting nozzles, never seen on in person, but I have heard good things. I am leaning toward these because of the reported stream qualities, IE it still helps control heat buildup and sucks up smoke.

    - Saberjet. Combi smoothbore and fog. Would the fog part clog up? Are they worth it?

    - Combi POK. Cheaper Saberjet. The district liks the price, I dont like the nozzle though.


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    -Smooth bores: General rule of thumb is you don't want a tip that is more than half the diameter of the hose (yet, industry standard is 15/16" on a 1.75"). With a 7/8" tip at 50psi, you get roughly 160gpm. A 15/16" tip will give you 180gpm. Go to a 2.5" hose with a 1", 1 1/8", or a 1.25" tip and you will get roughly 210, 266, and 328 gpm respectively. The distance it travels and impact force would be less than a fog because it is being projected with less pressure. However, a solid stream will be able to penetrate better than a fog nozzle.

    -Vindicator: Got to use one when checking out new nozzles. Nice nozzles, operate at 50psi. They are supposed to be good for foam also. If you have plenty of hydrants and copious amounts of water available, then they are good. If you have to rely on tanker shuttles, you might wind up wasting too much water.

    -Saberjet: If your TFTs are clogging up, then the fog part of the Saberjet will probably clog up. This nozzle take alot of training with a good portion of the people primarily because of having to shut the stream off in two different places, depending on what function you are using.

    -POK: Never used it.
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    Quite simply if debris in the line is the issue the smoothbore is the only practical choice. The size of the material you are talking about will pass through the nozzle with no problem at all. Also, I would find it hard to believe any decent combination nozzle would cost less than a smooth bore nozzle.

    15/16" for the 1 3/4" lines and 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" for the 2 1/2" would be good choices.

    FyredUp

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    Something else you might consider is refurbishing the tank. The fact that the lining is flacking off is an indicator of additional problems to come unless you do some preventative maintainance.

    We had a tanker that developed corrosion problems in the tank. We had several welders on the department who were able to repair the tank while several of us less talented members worked on removing the blistered paint and corrosion inside of the tank. We then applied an epoxy paint to protect the metal. I don't know how long the repairs lasted, but I know that it was still going strong 7-8 years later.

    My point is that while a different nozzle may address the issue of debris in the water, it doesn't get to the root cause. If the epoxy is coming off of the interior of your tank, how long will it be before you experience failure of the unprotected metal? Before long, you may become one of those departments that has to keep a garden hose running into the tank all the time to keep it full.

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    Originally posted by HM604OH
    Something else you might consider is refurbishing the tank. The fact that the lining is flacking off is an indicator of additional problems to come unless you do some preventative maintainance.

    We had a tanker that developed corrosion problems in the tank. We had several welders on the department who were able to repair the tank while several of us less talented members worked on removing the blistered paint and corrosion inside of the tank. We then applied an epoxy paint to protect the metal. I don't know how long the repairs lasted, but I know that it was still going strong 7-8 years later.

    My point is that while a different nozzle may address the issue of debris in the water, it doesn't get to the root cause. If the epoxy is coming off of the interior of your tank, how long will it be before you experience failure of the unprotected metal? Before long, you may become one of those departments that has to keep a garden hose running into the tank all the time to keep it full.
    We do have a tentive long term plan to get at the root of the problem.

    But, it wont be until 2005 unfortunatly.

    The plan is 2 fold.

    1 Aply to Fire Act Grant for an interface pumper, IE a BLM Type 14 that hauls 750 gallons and has a minimum 750 gpm pump. This would do much more for us then the road bound pumper we have now.

    2 Apply to our yearly state grant, roughly 11,000 dollars, to try and get a poly tank and fix the pumper we have.

    We are probly going to do both since we could get much more effect from an interface pumper and since our Pierce is no good to the next owner with a rusted out water tank.
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    why not use a "breakapart" ? Im pretty sure Akron and Elkhart still make them, proably a lot of smaller outfits like Cordova and Scotty do also. We use an Akron mid range with a adj gallonage fog tip and carry a set of double stacked tips with it. Just make sure your fog tip doesnt have a built in shut off. Some folks use a "slug" tip with a combo screwed on it, just twist off the combo and you have a fair straight stream. We had one built by Iowa American had a 15/16 " slug tip on it. It was a tough nozzle.

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    Originally posted by slackjawedyokel
    why not use a "breakapart" ? Im pretty sure Akron and Elkhart still make them, proably a lot of smaller outfits like Cordova and Scotty do also. We use an Akron mid range with a adj gallonage fog tip and carry a set of double stacked tips with it. Just make sure your fog tip doesnt have a built in shut off. Some folks use a "slug" tip with a combo screwed on it, just twist off the combo and you have a fair straight stream. We had one built by Iowa American had a 15/16 " slug tip on it. It was a tough nozzle.
    Wouldnt that also clog up? The fog tip that is?

    Do those have an inlet screen, that is where our TFT nozzles are cloggnig the worst. Only a few smaller pieces make it to the tip, and you can twist to flush and get rid of those.
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    Samson, it may not be a "great" fix, but is coating the tank with fiber glass an option? I have no clue if this is even something do-able that could be considered, but it's an idea anyways.

    It wouldn't cost nearly as much as $11,000 and would be an in-house fix that could be done over a few days. I don't mean just pouring in the resin, but actually laying out the strips of fiberglass and coating them with resin so that it's similar to a boats shell?

    Is it possible to "patch" up the holes in the tank without actually putting a new one in? If your tank is actually made up of some kind of resin, is it possible to make up a small patch kit that will get you through the time being?

    I have no clue if any of this can be done, it was just something that popped into my mind.

    OH! One last idea, could a strainer of some sort be put on the tank to pump line so that it keeps the crap from getting out onto your lines?

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    yes sir , the fog will still clog ------ but with a slug tip, you can shut the bale off , spin the combo tip off and open it up with a smooth bore --- it wont be the best of streams due to the short length of the tip - but it will put out a usuable straight stream. I would guess you could proably use your slug tip to flush out your combo nozzle if you couldnt reach into it and clean out the debris. Course you would have to pull your glove off.
    We carry a double stacked tip -15/16" and 5/8" bore , inner tube strapped to the hose --- havent lost em yet.

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    What ever you end up going with, be sure it uses a ball-valve. The sliding tube valve like the TFT most likely will jam with debris. I'd go with a ball valve and stackable tip so if a really big chunk jammed in the bore of the 7/8 or 15/16 tip you could shut down spin the tip off and either clear it or just say screw it. You can also carry a smaller bore, such as a 3/8 for mop up or penetration needs.

    Bear in mind you will need to train you pump operators to remember they are supposed to flow 50psi at the tip, not 100psi.
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    I hate to sound like a knob, but I know that is how this is going to sound. Do not put combination nozzles on those hoselines. If debris is the problem you can't take the chance of the combo nozzle clogging up. Because it will. And you know when it will clog up? It will clog up when you are fighting your way down some hallway and you need all the water that nozzle can give you. That is not the time to worry about flushing the tip or removing it to go to a smoothbore or anything else that delays fire attack. Particularly when it is pitch black and hotter than hades. Unless you are going to fix the tank you are much better off to go to smoothbores with ball valve shut-offs that will allow debris to pass through without clogging.

    FyredUp

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    We checked out the Combi-POK and I was not impressed. It's not really a "poor man's Saberjet" because it doesn't flow fog or smooth or both like the Akron does. It's basically a smoothbore and if you slide the body back there is a wide fog stream that sprays out, supposedly for "protection." It will not flow just a fog stream alone. IMHO, it's really not worth the expense and is very heavy. I like some of POK's other nozzles but was not impressed with this one.
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    POK is a French company!

    Blah!

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    Nuff Said! T.C.

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    If I could only buy two nozzles and nothing else, I would buy one smooth bore and one 1-3/4" Vindicator.
    And then, after you find out for yourself how well the Vindicator works, you will buy another one or two!
    We are fortunate where I live. We have combies, smooth bores and Vindicators. We use them all. Talk about flexibility!
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    Originally posted by 42VTExplorer
    Samson, it may not be a "great" fix, but is coating the tank with fiber glass an option? I have no clue if this is even something do-able that could be considered, but it's an idea anyways.

    It wouldn't cost nearly as much as $11,000 and would be an in-house fix that could be done over a few days. I don't mean just pouring in the resin, but actually laying out the strips of fiberglass and coating them with resin so that it's similar to a boats shell?

    Is it possible to "patch" up the holes in the tank without actually putting a new one in? If your tank is actually made up of some kind of resin, is it possible to make up a small patch kit that will get you through the time being?

    I have no clue if any of this can be done, it was just something that popped into my mind.

    OH! One last idea, could a strainer of some sort be put on the tank to pump line so that it keeps the crap from getting out onto your lines?
    I dont know. I will have to check into that, good idea! I am not sure if we would have to sandblast it and such. It is a steel tank that had the epoxy coating and electrodes to keep from rusting out. I think it has simply lived its service life.

    I am worried that if would try to bond the fiberglass to the epoxy that is already chipping off that we would have epoxy and fiber glass resin coming down the line.

    Even with the strainer though we would just end up cloggin it there instead of at the nozzle I am afraid.
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    Originally posted by Fire304
    What ever you end up going with, be sure it uses a ball-valve. The sliding tube valve like the TFT most likely will jam with debris. I'd go with a ball valve and stackable tip so if a really big chunk jammed in the bore of the 7/8 or 15/16 tip you could shut down spin the tip off and either clear it or just say screw it. You can also carry a smaller bore, such as a 3/8 for mop up or penetration needs.

    Bear in mind you will need to train you pump operators to remember they are supposed to flow 50psi at the tip, not 100psi.
    Noted, good point.
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    Originally posted by FyredUp
    I hate to sound like a knob, but I know that is how this is going to sound. Do not put combination nozzles on those hoselines. If debris is the problem you can't take the chance of the combo nozzle clogging up. Because it will. And you know when it will clog up? It will clog up when you are fighting your way down some hallway and you need all the water that nozzle can give you. That is not the time to worry about flushing the tip or removing it to go to a smoothbore or anything else that delays fire attack. Particularly when it is pitch black and hotter than hades. Unless you are going to fix the tank you are much better off to go to smoothbores with ball valve shut-offs that will allow debris to pass through without clogging.

    FyredUp
    Absolutly! Havnt had that particular situation, but a similar one.

    A single car garage fire, deep garage with all sorts of paint cans and hunting/fishing gear. It had heavy flame showing at the rear section, a small room that had most of the paint cans in it. The car part was heavy smoke all the way to the floor and was looking likt it was getting pretty hot.

    We opend the door and had both 1.5 inch cross lays, I was on one. Some of the other guys boke out some windows to get the smoke moving. We had already opened up with the attack lines from just outside the garage door. We were getting cooled off a bit...but the nozzles were starting to wimp out on us.

    At this point one of the brush trucks with 400 gallon tank pulled up so we grabed the booster line...1" hard rubber with 65 gpm automatic nozzle... and finished the job with some difficulty.

    Not fun, not safe, and definatly a good selling point to get some new nozzles as a temp fix.
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    Originally posted by ChiefReason
    If I could only buy two nozzles and nothing else, I would buy one smooth bore and one 1-3/4" Vindicator.
    And then, after you find out for yourself how well the Vindicator works, you will buy another one or two!
    We are fortunate where I live. We have combies, smooth bores and Vindicators. We use them all. Talk about flexibility!
    CR
    From what you guys say, I am going to rule out POK and the Saberjet. We dont want a POS, er I mean POK, and the Saberjet would probly clog, is more training we dont need to add to the "to do" list, and is sort of gimmiky.

    Now...

    Tell me more about the Vindicators! They seem to be effecty by all reports.

    My concerns...

    - Range? How far can you reach out there?

    - Impact? How much hitting force to they have? Can you penetrait/move stuff around with the stream?

    - Pessures? What happens to the stream at varous pressures? IIRC they are 50 psi, what if the pump operator goes into automatic zone and gives you 100+???

    - Operation? They are just like a smooth bore, correct? Just open the valve and fight fire???

    One thing I like abou these is that you dont have to worry about proper tip selection, one size works for all, correct?
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    We've had Vindicators on our county's first out engines for about a year, everyone seems to love them.


    Range: They go further than our Task Force automatics and our smooth bores

    Impact: Don't bring it into a small kitchen fire, you will break stuff

    I wouldn't recommend using an automatic pump setting unless you are going to use the vindicator and only the vindicator, because you will have to pump the crap out of your engine to get 150 psi or more. The nozzle flows too much water to get those pressures.

    "- Operation? They are just like a smooth bore, correct? Just open the valve and fight fire???
    "
    Yep. They pass debris extremely well too-- you can pass a quarter through them.

    There was also a comment that you might not want to use them in a rural setting due to water supply. My county is mostly not hydranted, but all of our engines have 1000 gal., and our tankers, which won't be too far behind have 2400... Our philosophy is: if you hit the fire quickly and aggresivly, you will stop it from outrunning your shuttle. If you use more than 3400 gal., its probably going to be deffensive anyway.

    With that said, we are lucky to have good station spacing, good turnout, and know when it IS to big to hit with an interior attack.

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    Originally posted by ChiefReason
    We have combies, smooth bores and Vindicators. We use them all.
    CR
    You mean... one is not better than the other???!!!!???

    That can't be, its all or nothing here Chief! You are either a fog or a smooth guy, black or yellow turnouts, OSHA or NFPA, California or not California, red or not red apparatus, leather or, err, nevermind...

    I'm so confused.

    What you are saving sounds so,

    well,

    so,

    reasonalble!!!




    Daniel4880 and CR, thanks for the info on the Vindicators, I've always been facinated by them, maybe I will once again try to get the chief to look at them (I think he'll at least allow a demo).
    Last edited by Fire304; 07-07-2004 at 09:03 PM.
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    Samson,

    If you could use the fiberglass, maybe you could make a full shell inside of the tank that way you don't have to worry about it chipping off with the other pieces? Cost is still way below 1100.

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    Fire304:
    To quote the gentlemen who sold us the Vindicators, "it's another tool for the toolbox". All three nozzles that I allude to have their own advantages/disadvantages and careful decision-making should be used when selecting which "tool" to use.
    Sure; the combination nozzle is multi-faceted, can be used in many scenarios and because they are multi-purpose, is considered getting more bang for the buck.
    Smooth bore is a traditionally effective nozzle when getting lots of water on a fire very quickly is the strategy. Nothing fancy.
    The Vindicator is a low pressure/high volume nozzle that has less reaction than nozzles requiring greater gpm to operate effectively.
    Because it's air aspirated, it is a foam dynamo. I haven't seen another nozzle that can perform with foam like the Vindicator can.
    It is a great vehicle fire nozzle and though you can use up a tank of water rather quickly with the bigger Vindicator nozzles, since when is the strategy to conserve water at a fire? Even if you use more water than you'd like to, you have slowed down fire spread and bought some time until more water is available.
    We love our nozzles. We have a combie on one pre-connect and a Vindicator on the other. Both engines are set up that way.
    Now; you raise an interesting question, so I took it straight to the top. I asked Jake and Vinnie what they thought.
    Jake prefers a smooth bore, though he will use a combie in a pinch. He's a traditional jake, wears leather and likes his nozzles straight. He doesn't know much about the new technology, but doesn't care. His chief likes the combies because they are flexible and inexpensive.
    Vinnie likes the Vindicator for its "kick butt/take no prisoners" delivery of water. He got to use one in a demo and is convinced that it is the wave of the future. But he is young and very excitable.
    So, you decide. Like I said; having a complement of nozzles is good if you can afford it. And fortunately, we can.
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    The Vindicator is very nice Winfield uses them for almost everything. They do clear debris well and they flow a ton of water. For foam they will equal or beat everything made. One important thing to note is the more water you flow and corectly apply the faster the fire goes out. DO NOT "CONSERVE" WATER hit it and be done with it.
    Addison has the long foam nozzles and the vindicator did as well but the big foam nozzles can't be used for anything else and the vindicator can.

    A SB would be my next choice.

    But more important would be addressing the tank problem.

    Best of luck

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    I sell all types of nozzles, and would recommend that you get a demo of the nozzles that you are looking at. Make sure that you use a calibrated flow meter along with pressure gauges.

    We use Vindicators at my deparment, and I would recommend everyone to at least look at the Vindicator before making any nozzle purchase.

    Good Luck,

    Patrick

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