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Thread: Mayday sog's

  1. #1
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    Default Mayday sog's

    We are working on mayday sog's, finally. I would enjoy your input on developing ours.
    Each member is issued a portable radio with an emergency button, the officers radio's have a read out screen telling them who is transmitting. All fire ground opps are done on a talk around, non repeated channel. If our emergency button is activated on our fire ground channel the officers nor dispatch receive the alarm or a read out on their screen that a button has been activated. Do we need to be using a repeated channel so dispatch receives an alarm? Or are we okay to call a mayday (using L.U.N.A.R.) on fire ground and have all officers receive a read out of who is calling a mayday?

    What is your opinion of activating your P.A.S.S. device during a mayday if you are radio equipped? Are we better off having a quiet environment to communicate?


  2. #2
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    If I am an officer on the second floor and my radio alerts me to a FF down by showing FF#12 is in Mayday....do I know where FF#12 is? Should all officers then stop what they are doing and go assist the down FF? Or is it more important that the IC knows and can check with the accountability officer to know where the FF is (was/should have been)? Personally, I don't think it is all that important for the identifying to be active for all officers to see. You may also want to consider a second operating channel so the rest of your fireground communications can continue and not interfere with the Mayday. A guy gives a mayday, you want to give him every chance of communication, but there may also be other things that others need to communicate. 2 channels would be a help, for example when a mayday is issued all other radios switch channels. Leave that channel open for the downed FF and RIT/FAST/etc.

    As for the PASS alarms, give the mayday message, then activate it. That alarm "should" alert anyone in the immediate area. Also, if the FF goes unconscious, the pass may be the only sound heard.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Ok. Radio lesson time.

    The emergency button is something that is decoded by a dispatch console. The only other thing that can decode an MDC Emergency signal is a CDM1550 mobile radio. Of course, then you end up playing ping-pong with the acknowledge signal having that radio and a console decoding it. Unless you plan on dragging car batteries and that truck radio in with with you, there is no way for field units (portables specificly) to decode the emergency signal. Many motorola portables can decode the regular unit PTT-ID. Obviosuly you do make use of that feature. But the emergency signal, no dice. Need a console.

    If you are on a talk-around channel, dispatch will not hear you unless they have installed a talk-around receiver. This not very common at all so chances are it doesn't exist there.

    If you use the talk-around channel for FG which is probably the best way to do it, DON'T USE THE EMERGENCY BUTTON! It will go no where and will only tie up the air with the damn squawks (especially if it is set for infinate impoite retries). Speak in english what the problem is using whatever terminology your dept has adopted.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default Email me...

    Please give me your email and I can send you some really good SOPs
    on the subject. I think the are in PDF format.

    -Bou

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    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    Please give me your email and I can send you some really good SOPs
    on the subject. I think the are in PDF format.

    -Bou
    I hope it's not a calendar of May 1st through May 30th, Bou... all those darn May days!


    TONGUE IN CHEEK, all in good fun!

    Last edited by Resq14; 07-08-2004 at 12:29 AM.
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    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    And about the radios... if dispatch can not hear the "FF DOWN" alert, are they even monitoring your channel? If your voice reaches dispatch, your "FF DOWN" alert will to. Sometimes even when voice is barely audible. It's important to have talk around as an option if you're in a fringe area or known problem spot. I don't think it's a good idea to routinely do this though if a dispatcher is unable to monitor your situation though.

    In the cheaper price range, Kenwood offers more options for fleet signalling. One place where I work has the 2-way alphanumeric messaging in place to send pre-configured messages to radios like "Evacuate", etc. Theoretically it's possible for the radios to be configured to recognize a "group call" signal being sent by the "FF DOWN" alert button, which could decode the unit information.

    I have not messed around enough with the software yet to determine if this is possible though. It might not be an option, even though it is capable of doing so. nmfire?

    For what it's wortj.. even though I used to be a die hard Motorola fan, I'm turning to Kenwood. Price is better, just as many if not more options, and they seem to be holding up well. I just wish they'd get some lithium ion batteries into the tk-280/tk-290 product line!
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    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    I won't let a Motorola sales rep anywhere near our property unless they are servicing the PD stuff. They will be shot on site otherwise. Basicly, for all the reasons you stated above and the shop in this area is run by a bunch of hacks.

    Unless you have near 100% in building (including basements) portable radio talk-back to dispatch via a repeater, you should always be on a talk-around channel. If you can't make the repeater, NO ONE will hear you. On talk-around, you have every single person on-scene with a radio that can hear you. Yes, it would be ideal if dispatch could hear but that is very often NOT the case and not feasable unless the city hits the lottery.

    Using text messaging for interior work is not practical at all. Are you going to dig your radio out of wherever it is shoved in your gear and try to read the little backlit display in pitch black smoke? I think not. If you need to get a message through to crew that is working on anything, speak it.

    That said, the Kenwood Fleetsync is a very nice system. We haven't begun using it but I do want to start at least using the PTT-ID soon.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  8. #8
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Yes, agreed.

    We're in the same boat... haven't implemented Fleetsync yet. It's too bad that not all fire departments are able to reliably monitor their operations channels. That should be a priority.

    But I *know* you are familiar with the radio system game.

    Plan 1, Plan 2, and Plan 3. Plan 1 is state of the art and what is needed for $$$$$, Plan 2 is the in-between, and Plan 3 is "it will get you by" for $.

    We all know what plan usually is selected. And then it begins. "We paid millions and we can't even talk to each other in the same room. The radio system is broken! It's junk! It's yada yada yada."

    Heh, noooo, IT'S only as good as it's designed to be.
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  9. #9
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Exactly. If you pay for crap, you get crap.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  10. #10
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mayday sog's

    Originally posted by mbonser
    We are working on mayday sog's, finally. I would enjoy your input on developing ours.
    Each member is issued a portable radio with an emergency button, the officers radio's have a read out screen telling them who is transmitting. All fire ground opps are done on a talk around, non repeated channel. If our emergency button is activated on our fire ground channel the officers nor dispatch receive the alarm or a read out on their screen that a button has been activated. Do we need to be using a repeated channel so dispatch receives an alarm? Or are we okay to call a mayday (using L.U.N.A.R.) on fire ground and have all officers receive a read out of who is calling a mayday?

    What is your opinion of activating your P.A.S.S. device during a mayday if you are radio equipped? Are we better off having a quiet environment to communicate?
    If you would like, I can send you the RIT/Mayday SOGs that we developed. Email me at jonathan_bastian@bullard.com. You will have to correct the address if you use the link, because for some reason this message board splits BULLARD into 2 words.

    And, for what it's worth: if a firefighter even thinks he is in trouble, he should call mayday AND activate his PASS. The activated PASS is the homing beacon, especially if the FF is unable to communicate.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  11. #11
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    As many have said here,when you have to give a mayday,speak.Don't yell.Give as much info as you can. Location(floor,side 1,2,3,4).Why are you trapped? Tools needed for rescue.Do you need air? What are the fire conditions?Who(if not you) is trapped/missing?Where was the last place you saw them?

  12. #12
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    We use "Mayday". Its ONLY used for a trapped firefighter. With out going into all the details, our SOG works like this...

    -Trapped firefighter says "Mayday" 3 times, and activated his (her) PASS.

    -ALL radio traffic stops.

    -ALL units on scene switch to an alternate radio channel, except for IC and the trapped firefighter.

    -IC prompts the trapped firefighter for information (company/ assignment/how many/location/air supply/pinned or not, etc.)

    -IC activates RIG, forms backup RIG

    -Dispatch responds additional alarm assignment, puts county TRT on alert, sends request for 1 ambulance per trapped firefighter, puts air transport (medivac) on standby for possible burn center transport.

    I could go on, but our "Mayday" SOG is about 6 pages long.

    We use "Mayday" as we already use "emergency traffic" for other things. For example, when a unit on the road comes up on an MVC, they would say "E36 emergency traffic" which clears the channel for dispatch.

    Dave

  13. #13
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dave1983
    -IC activates RIG, forms backup RIG
    This may be implied, but I'll make it explicit. Keep in mind that a MAYDAY does not always mean the RIT is activated. There could be extreme situations where the risk to the RIT is not justified by the probability of success. We may not like it, but there may be situations where we have to admit that a brother cannot be recovered alive, no matter how good our RIT is.

    The BC in Worcester made that incredibly difficult call 5 years ago, limiting the loss at the cold storage to 6 Brothers.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  14. #14
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default Yuck...

    Originally posted by Resq14


    I hope it's not a calendar of May 1st through May 30th, Bou... all those darn May days!


    TONGUE IN CHEEK, all in good fun!

    I get banged again by "If F--Y uses it, then we have too"
    fever. I will never win.

    Thanks for the laugh...

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