Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 15 FirstFirst 12345613 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 281
  1. #41
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Samson,

    You can have your opinion but I feel it is greatly misguided.

    Exactly what is wrong with tradition? Tradition is the the passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.

    A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.
    A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners.
    A time-honored practice or set of such practices.

    What is wrong with the senior man in the company having the final say on house issues. What is wrong with jonnies stepping up to work for a senior man on Christmas.

    I get a feeling many of you denounce tradition without really having a clue about what you are talking about.

    I gaurantee every one of your depts has a tradition... whether it is
    cooking breakfast every Saturday as a company...or giving the Chauffuers seat to the senior man, or the method in which you decide who is to wash the dishes. The social culture of your dept, that is all tradition.

    As far a your comments that you are waiting for all the old guys to die off so you can re-write the book on firefighting...that is the most foolish thing you could say or think.

    In my dept one could consider it traditional that the roofman Always makes the roof and nothing shall deter him from this duty. In my Engine the Senior man in Groups usually gets the knob for that tour. The officers in my dept are the 1st ones in and the last ones out by tradition. We don't give the knob to anyone, not another Engine, Truckie, Rescue Anyone...If we are to back out...we don't leave until all the Truckies and Rescue guys are below the fire floor...it is a matter of Company pride...that is tradition.

    Much of what is now written down in procedural manuals was at one time passed down orally from the senior men to the junior men who in turn passed it on when they became senior. Much of what I learn from the senior men in my house isn't in any book and it is passed down orally from senior man to junior man...time and time again.

    Experince is what makes up tradition.

    Who am I to say...that isn't how you force a bulkhead door (ooops BOU I shouldn't have used a maritime term!) Or the senior man tells me this is the best and most reliable way to remove a window and VES.... or this is how you determine if you can perform a well hole stretch.

    Perhaps the reason many of your younger members are more apt to try other methods is because they are arogant enough to think in their short time that they know as much as the senior men. Perhaps when they get older they'll realize that the easiest and most profiicent way at xyz task was to do it the way the old guys said it should be done.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 07-09-2004 at 11:14 AM.


  2. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,708

    Default

    Originally posted by CJMinick390
    Samson, maybe things will improve as us "dinosaurs" move on, but from my experience the "Gen xyz" crew has their own set of issues. The fire service "culture" problem is not simply a result of adherence to tradition or resistance to change. Many of the "kids" in my company have no concept of team work, no desire to do their part in restocking or maintaining the equipment, and very little desire to train. Those attitudes have to be changed as well if we're serious about safety and doing the job correctly. These problems aren't about tradition or lack thereof. They are grounded in attitudes.
    Cant dispute that either.

    I should amend my statement to "good" attitudes are what we need.

    Sure, there are trouble some young punks, but I think that has been a constant throughout the history of the fire service since it began.

    Here is a thought on some traditions that are flawed and dangerous, IE riding tail bord or standing up in open toped apparatus.

    It has been said simply eleminate the hand holds/tail board/open cab and you get rid of that problem. We were talking about this at a fire meeting last week.

    We dont have this problem except during parades.

    But one of our dinosaurs made a comment that struck me as funny and yet disturbing. He said something like "if you take away the hand rail on the rear then people will just try to hand off the hose or some fitting and then they will fall off for sure."



    We can used technology to counter act some fo the stupidity, but those who are determined enough to be stupid are unstopable...
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  3. #43
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Illinois-where pertnear is close enough!
    Posts
    5,636

    Default

    Some of you are confusing history with tradition.
    Firefighters dying in the line of duty is part of our fire service history. Firefighters have been dying since the day Nero set fire to Rome. In this country, it has been since Ben Franklin formed the first volunteer fire department.
    Firefighters dying in the line of duty should not be used in the same breath as "tradition", because that would infer that it is somehow accepted practice and NOBLE to die while on duty. Holidays are a tradition. Firefighter funerals are not; or at least the reason for them.
    The national attention doesn't come to us who do the job everyday, without incident and without fanfare. The national attention comes when someone dies while on a call. But few details are ever revealed as to the nature, unless it is something sensational and will sell more newspapers. Firefighters getting busted at a porn ball will sell more newspapers than a firefighter dying while trying to save a life. The general public doesn't care that heat exhaustion, stress or anything else is killing firefighters. They only care that we will be there if they need us.
    Which is why it is up to the fire service to get control of its own destiny, identify the problems and fix them before another firefighter dies needlessly.
    As a full time safety director, it is absolutely absurd for me to believe that employees die as a matter of course. Getting seriously injured or killed while on the job should never be accepted as part of the risk of the job. Firefighting is a risky business, but thank God, there has been enough scientific study done to reduce the number of risks. People should not have to die to improve the science. And especially where we as individuals can control some of it through proper diet and exercise.
    Zero firefighter deaths is the number rolling around in my head.
    What's your number?
    CR
    Visit www.iacoj.com
    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  4. #44
    MembersZone Subscriber Halligan84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Blackwood NJ, USA
    Posts
    816

    Default

    We can used technology to counter act some fo the stupidity, but those who are determined enough to be stupid are unstopable...
    They may be unstoppable, but not at the Fire Department. THROW THEM OUT. If people can't get a simple safety rule, FIRE them. But thats another culture change......officers that will discipline

  5. #45
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,570

    Default

    Dal, NJ requires CEU's for Fire Instructors and such already. FF1 CEU's is also under consideration. It's a nice idea, however, to keep everyone "happy", the CEU courses are a little lax at best.

    At least, it is a step forward, although small. And yet, people fight against it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #46
    Fire Chaplain IACOJRev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    534

    Default

    Originally posted by Halligan84


    They may be unstoppable, but not at the Fire Department. THROW THEM OUT. If people can't get a simple safety rule, FIRE them. But thats another culture change......officers that will discipline
    NOTE: MY FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS IN NO WAY A SLAM ON UNIONS - IT IS SIMPLY A PERSONAL OBSERVATION OF HOW THINGS WERE HANDLED IN A SPECIFIC DEPARTMENT.

    In a department where I used to serve, contract terms and union intervention made it difficult to get rid some of these folks. Officers tried to discipline, and actions were often overturned.

    There has been mention of top-down and bottom-up transformations, but what about side-by-side, with the union and the administraion working together to bring about change. Too often these two groups - who have the ability to bring about tremendous change in the culture of the department - are on opposite sides of the room.
    Resident Chaplain of the IACOJ

  7. #47
    MembersZone Subscriber Halligan84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Blackwood NJ, USA
    Posts
    816

    Default

    Since you bring that up Rev,, How do departments handle discipline where the officer and firefighter are in the same local? Is there a conflict where the officer may work for a union official? My department never had unionized officers (part of management) so I have never encountered it.

  8. #48
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Lightbulb

    Just remember the same rules that protect the idiots protect you as well.

    FTM-PTB

  9. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    1,719

    Default

    Speaking of culture change, tradition and peer pressure: it's been noted in numerous articles and recent threads on here of the reluctance of firefighters to call a "Mayday" (or whatever phraseology you prefer Bou ) because they are worried about comments from fellow firefighters afterwards.

    Now I can break and get my balls broken with the best of 'em but this is one thing that would be off-limits for me. If you think you need help, call for it right away. You'll never hear me making fun of you for it. I suspect most of us feel the same way.

    Is this really something to be concerned about or is it one more common misconception that can be dispelled?
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

  10. #50
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Not so fast on the nay-saying to non-FD personnel in FP.

    There is a whole slew of people grduating from UM, OK State, UNH, WPI, etc. with degreesin fire protection engineering. They learn to approach fire protection from a systems standpoint. They look at things differently than non-engineering people do. Maybe that is not the right way to look at a blocked exit, but it sure seems to me to be the right approach with the overall fire protection structure of the hogh hazard occupancies.

    There will always be a place for FD inspections, but there are a few seats at the table for civilians as well.

  11. #51
    MembersZone Subscriber ullrichk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Deleted by the forum gremlins
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    Originally posted by FFFRED

    Perhaps the reason many of your younger members are more apt to try other methods is because they are arogant enough to think in their short time that they know as much as the senior men. Perhaps when they get older they'll realize that the easiest and most profiicent way at xyz task was to do it the way the old guys said it should be done.

    FTM-PTB
    But sometimes it's the senior guys who are arrogant enough to believe that their's is the best and only way to do something - and that's a cultural thing. We always have to be alert to new possibilities. (And I'm not picking on you personally, FFFRED, I'm making a generalization.)

    On another topic, Frank Brannigan's comments about refusing an assignment are, to a point, valid. Firefighters need to be prepared to carry out orders without hesitation. On the other hand, though, the airline industry ran into the problem of the Captain's authority being absolute and unquestioned - even as the plane went down for reasons that other crew members were aware of and had the ability to correct. The airlines' answer was a concept called Crew Resource Management.

    In a nutshell, you do what the boss says, but when you see something amiss you have the right and obligation to speak up. Depending on the situation, sometimes the boss' orders stand, sometimes they get countermanded. It's a concept worth studying. How many LODD's have happened because someone didn't speak up?
    ullrichk
    a.k.a.
    perfesser

    a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

  12. #52
    Fire Chaplain IACOJRev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    534

    Default

    Originally posted by ullrichk

    In a nutshell, you do what the boss says, but when you see something amiss you have the right and obligation to speak up. Depending on the situation, sometimes the boss' orders stand, sometimes they get countermanded. It's a concept worth studying. How many LODD's have happened because someone didn't speak up?
    Excellent point! At the hospital where I work, I teach a class called Crucial Conversations. It is an intense 16-hour course that provides our staff valuable tools needed to effectively speak up - which is creating a culture change here. No longer is the "doctor always right". Nurses (and other staff) are EXPECTED to question unclear or potentially life-threatening directions.

    When people purposefully whithold meaning from one another, individually smart people can do collectively stupid things. For example...

    A women checked into the hospital (not mine ) to have a tonsillectomy, and the surgical team erroneously removed a portion of her foot. How could this tragedy happen. In fact, why is it that ninety-eight thousand hospital deaths each year stem from human error? In part because many health-care professionals are afraid to speak their minds. In the investigaion report from this case, it shows that no less than seven people wondered why the surgeon was working on the foot, but said nothing.
    Resident Chaplain of the IACOJ

  13. #53
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Maybe a solution is to hire "non-fire" personnel for code enforcement and inspections. Hire people with talents in areas of Public Speaking, Engineering, with great attention to detail. Then these people would be "suited" for the job. Lets face it; it hard to take someone used to the stress and excitement and challenge of suppression, assign them to Prevention, and expect them to excell.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I absolutely could not disagree more with this comment. That is the whole cultural issue in a nutshell!!! Look at your job description, fire prevention is YOU! I have been a career firefighter in an industrial setting for 20 years, fires are an EVENT, when they happen its because the Fire Department failed. We don't let fires happen, we spend our day making inspections and testing systems. Obviously the municipal department can't test systems. Want a culture change? Get the apparatus on the street all day doing inspections. Spend the remaining time training, if your working 24's.. time after 2100 is yours. Maybe then, when we start to show a productive workday in the face of declining fire duty can we stop sending fire apparatus on every single EMS run so we can have something to do. Insist on doing ALL of our job and shut off the TV.
    In service inspections, public education. I'll buy that is part of my job. But you can't make me like working Mon thru Fri 9 to 5 doing re-sale and oil burner inspections. Not that it isn't part of the Fire Department's responsibility, but I am sure there is someone else who would rather do it than I. Until we come up with a way to entice people into Fire Prevention, it will always be the Red Headed Step Child. Think outside the box a bit.

    Furthermore, a clue into my shift at the station. After relieving the off going shift, a quick check of my assigned vehicle and the ambulance. Then housework and a check of the vehicle for that day of the wwek. Then training. And somewhere in there we do an average of 10 calls a day. You can't expect a fire comapny to meet a Real Estate Agent at 13:00hrs. Won't happen. And while I realize that I am getting paid for 24 hours, my primary job is to be available to protect the public.

    I think it is tradition that holds us back in many ways. Go ahead, blast at me but thats my opinion.
    I won't blast you, but some further discussion. A refusal to change and adapt holds us back. Not Tradition. The "we've always done it this way" attitude. Tradition is respecting those that have gone before us, and realizing that their sacrafice was not in vain"

    Since you bring that up Rev,, How do departments handle discipline where the officer and firefighter are in the same local? Is there a conflict where the officer may work for a union official? My department never had unionized officers (part of management) so I have never encountered it.
    In my place, the Officer handle small stuff (verbals) on a one on one basis. If the guy is written up, its up to the administration to meter out the punishment. Of course we are a smaller Department.

  14. #54
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    4. Empower all firefighters to stop unsafe practices;

    I have to admit, this one creates a lot more questions than some others. I was always brought up that the Officer is in charge. Now, have I ever pointed out something is amiss, sure. But his say so is final. Kinda has to be that way too. Otherwise you'll have some wicked anarchy on the fireground. What about the timid guy, not too much experience. Is he going to call the shots now?

  15. #55
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Arrow

    I'll only add that the senior men in my house (~20rs+) have forced more doors, stretched more lines, searched more rooms, climbed more ladders than I have. In all likelyhood they made the same mistakes and encountered the same problems I have. The reason they pass on the knowledge they have gained on to us is because they don't want us to work any harder than we have to. They also know XYZ methods work the best.

    It isn't arogance on the senior mens part...it is expeirence. There is a world of difference.

    Brothers,

    We are not talking about medical procedures in a sterile hospital environment. And we aren't sitting in a cockpit pulling levers, punching knobs, and reading manuals.

    We are talking about taking a line down a hallway. An officer with his nozzle team pushing into a cellar fire doesn't have time to consult the manual or have a decision by commitee.

    Perhaps most of the problem comes from these departments that make the officer the back-up man or part of the Inside team that carries tools. If more of you would stop making excuses on why the officer must be the back-up man or why he must carry the Irons... and look for solutions and arguments that will enable you to have better staffing and thus enable the officer to do what he was placed there to do...supervise and ensure the safety of his company, everyone would be better off.

    If your dept doesn't want to tackle this subject, the rest of the fluff contanied in that report won't matter anyway. Don't worry about fire prevention and fire sprinklers because most of that is out of your hands and will take years to have an effect. None of it will help you tonight when you report for duty at your 3 man engine and 2 man understaffed Truck Co. Focus on getting better staffing and better procedures and training. That will increase the chances of everyone going home...firemen and civilians.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 07-09-2004 at 03:44 PM.

  16. #56
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Sampson my friend,At 37 years on the line I AM the Senior man and the Senior Line boss.I HAVE a bunch of genx or what I call 5/30's on my roster,5 years on,think they have thirty years experience.They CONSTANTLY think they have a better way or know more about the trade than I do.Things I can tell you;I may have crawled up out of the tar pits but I didn't get to where I am by having my head in dark places.Being inherently lazy but sworn to do a job you DON'T have an easier SAFE way to do the job because if it existed I'd know about it.I'm a state certified municipal fire instructor and active at both the training and working line side of the business.In 16 years of training new help I have been beaten getting "dressed"by the students three times.They DID NOT beat me the following week.I ask nothing of my personnel that I wouldn't do myself but I take a very hard line and dim view of anyone who disobeys a directive or shirks their duty.I agree with FFred that GEN X is a PROBLEM;some will respond to training and guidance but MANY do not.Those that will not are destined to become badly injured or killed. This is NOT a user friendly business.I have no problem with new ideas,equipment,or tactics as long as it IMPROVES my working conditions.If you spend any time studying fire service history you'll discover that about every twenty or thirty years we flip flop right back to a previous method(smooth bore vs combi comes to mind)Old methods are not necessarily bad,new methods are not necessarily good,One needs to blend the two to maximise the potential of your individual organizations.I've seen a lot of changes in my third of a century and I'm seeing a lot more injuries in this "new"gear than I ever saw in the old,There is a lot of reasons for that and my Dept has answered almost all of them.So "new"isn't always good. T.C.

  17. #57
    Fire Chaplain IACOJRev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    534

    Default

    Originally posted by FFFRED
    We are not talking about medical procedures in a sterile hospital environment. And we aren't sitting in a cockpit pulling levers, punching knobs, and reading manuals.

    We are talking about taking a line down a hallway. An officer with his nozzle team pushing into a cellar fire doesn't have time to consult the manual or have a decision by commitee.
    I agree with you 100%!

    I don't advocate insubordination! The officer is the one in charge and is responsible for giving directives that everyone under him should follow and in order for him to give the best directives he needs to have ALL of the information.

    Many times errors are made not because of bad judgement, but because the officer didn't have all of the vital information.
    Resident Chaplain of the IACOJ

  18. #58
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default Um 101...

    Sorry to break it to you, but if you're 37, you are a member of GENERATION X
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  19. #59
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    25 NW of the GW
    Posts
    8,434

    Post

    I've seen many suggestions posted here on steps we can take to reduce/eliminate firefighter deaths. I believe it would be helpful if we all started out on a level playing field...and took a look at some statistics. Ray posted a chart showing the breakdown, however, here it is in hard numbers. If we learn WHAT is killing our brothers..only then can we work towards solutions. Many of you are right up to speed on the stats...but for those of you who don't know, I offer the relative stats from 2003.
    ****************************** ******************
    Firefighter on-duty deaths increased 11 percent in 2003 over the previous year, despite advances in technology and safety equipment. With 29 deaths, wildland firefighters suffered the highest casualties since 1994.

    One hundred and eleven firefighters died while on duty in 2003, an 11% increase over the 100 deaths recorded in 2002, according to figures released by the U.S. Fire Administration. With 29 of those deaths in wildland fires, it was the deadliest year for wildland firefighters since 1994, when the Storm King killed 14 firefighters in Colorado, bringing the year's total to 36.

    Heart attack continues to be the leading cause of death for firefighters, killing 53 firefighters last year, followed by trauma, which took 44 firefighter lives.

    According to a review of the deaths, 36 states and Guam saw at least one firefighter die last year, and 20 firefighters died in seven multiple fatality incidents:

    Eight Oregon firefighters were killed in a vehicle accident as they returned from fighting wildland fires;
    Two Memphis firefighters died while fighting a fire in a business in June;
    Two Idaho firefighters were killed in July when a wildland fire spread quickly and trapped them;
    Two firefighters died as a result of a helicopter crash in Arizona in July;
    Two Ohio firefighters were killed while operating at a silo fire in October;
    Two Nevada-based firefighters were killed in an October airtanker crash in California; and
    Two Oregon firefighters died in a helicopter crash in October.
    Volunteer, seasonal, and part-time firefighters accounted for 80 deaths; full-time career firefighters, comprised 30 deaths (27 percent) in 2003.

    The majority of firefighter fatalities in 2003, 59%, occurred in relation to a fire or EMS incident.

    Sixty percent of the firefighters who died while on-duty in 2003 suffered fatal injuries or illnesses in emergency situations.

    Twenty-two firefighters died as they responded to an emergency or returned from one, many of these deaths involved vehicle collisions.

    Eleven deaths occurred during training.

    source: Fire Chief Magazine

    ****************************** ***************

    Now....how many of these deaths could have been prevented by physical fitness programs and/or diet changes?

    How many of these deaths could have been prevented by supplying our aerial firefighters with modern, state of the art aircraft?

    How many of these deaths could have been prevented by the elimination of macho fire instruction techniques in our academies?

    How many were due to errors made by those in charge?

    How many could have been prevented by simple adjustments in driving habits?

    Does tradition play a role in most of these deaths?

    Okay....on with the discussion my friends. This firefighter appreciates this thread tremendously...and I thank you all for speaking up.
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  20. #60
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Lincoln, NE
    Posts
    195

    Thumbs up

    I like the way FFFRED thinks!!!

    FFFRED...contact me off list if you get the chance...

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts