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  1. #61
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    Default Some real problems with real simple solutions

    IACOJRev,

    You make an excellent point:

    Many times errors are made not because of bad judgement, but because the officer didn't have all of the vital information.
    From my past experince in understaffed depts, I think much of this has to do with the fact that officers, can't be officers. They can't supervise and they can't look at the big picture. They are often the back-up man or door man feeding hose and not looking where the nozzle man or team is going or what they are getting into... or they are pulling celinings and not looking at the structure and its condition.

    Why is that?..I feel part comes from a culture brought to us by safety susies who are long on formal book education and short on real world expeirence. The promotion systems are based on who ya know and who ya blow instead of what you know. They are based on who is less threatening to that chiefs personal kingdom. Therefore you don't have promotions based on merit and fittness for the job. Just look at the disasterous results in Chicago, I'm sure most of the brothers there are looking forward to a knowledge based promotions and not a political patronage test.

    The other part comes from the fact that I see to many Chiefs pushing for sprinklers in new construction yet that doesn't do anything for the fires they will continue to have in older construction. They don't campaign even 1/10th as hard for adequate staffing or even having at least 1 Truck Company. This is all despite the fact that 90% of their city isn't sprinklered and probably won't be.

    Perhaps it is because they are A@% puppets for the Mayor or perhaps they don't have much if any experince in it therefore their ignorance leads them to fear the concept and what it entails.

    I know this can be common in growing depts(typically suburban) that start out small bedroom communities and now finding themselves a midsize dept.

    From personal experience I had chiefs who thought all truckies had prison tatto's and all they did was cause needless damage and swore and drank to much. They would say this isn't NY, Chicago, SanFran (insert large city here). And it all stemmed from the fact they never have even bothered to learn what Truck Companies do in those cities...they just made assumptions. (and bad ones at that)

    When officers are allowed to standback and suppervise, when Battalion Chiefs are allowed to focus on the strategy instead of writting down responding companies on the 2nd alarm and answering dispatch radio because they don't have a chiefs aide, when promotions are based on experience and relevant job knowledge and not how many degrees you have and how well your interview went(usually translates to: do you or do you not agree with the chief), then and only then will you see an reduction in injuries and deaths.

    Is anyone else sick of Chiefs who state it is ok that they reduce staffing because of newer codes, fewer fires, and Fire prevention...while numerically fires are down, and prevention and codes reduce the fires in new structures it does nothing for the majority of your existing infrastructure. If they came out tommorow and said all of NYC buildings and houses must be sprinklered...do you think I'll never go to another fire?? Does that justify a reduction in the staffing? (Hint: the answer is NO)

    That is the culture I see that needs changing...the leadership vacuum that permits Criminally low staffing, the culture that Engine and Ladder Cos. officers must perform firemens duties and not supervise. Thats what they are paid the big bucks for right? Change that and many problems will clear themselves up.

    FTM-PTB


  2. #62
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Mikey;Readjust your math.37 years ON THE LINE,not on the earth my friend.Been drinking Chicago water again?Hehe T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 07-09-2004 at 09:57 PM.

  3. #63
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    Fred brings up some good points.

    Why do we bother to promote guys to an Officer position, when they still do the same job?

    2nd guy on the line, in some cases on the knob. My feelings have always been that the Officers job is to keep an eye on the "big" picture and keep me safe. Don't tell me how to use the knob, I should know that or be selling used cars.

    One problem though. I can guarantee you my Town will not significantly increase manpower any time in the near future. Its not in the cards. They would rather pay me OT, than hire the guys to do the job. So where do we go from here?

    More culture change. The smaller departments needs to focus ever more on safety in their operations. It sucks, but there is no easy answer.

    There are many, many things that we can do to increase our safety, regardless of staffing. While I agree its an issue, lets figure out how to be safer regardless of how many are there.

    101,

    Damn, you are a dinosuar!!! Like your style though.

    NJ,

    Nice stats Ed, thanks. Seems like a good chunk of of guys would still be here if not for the donuts. Ok, maybe thats unfair, but Health and Fitness is a big part of the equation.

    Dave

  4. #64
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    hfd66truck,

    I'm sure there are many more like you where the public don't understand what they are really getting if thier house is on fire. (wasn't that supposed to be part of NFPA 1710?)

    Perhaps depts in your situation should team up 2 engines to stretch and operate 1 line. Getting a properly positioned and operating handline in place as fast as possible would be more beneficial than 2 or 3 that are having a hard time advancing around corners, have too many kinks, etc.

    I know many people have this idea that they should stretch as many handlines as possible. Perhaps focusing on getting that one line in place and with at least a nozzleman, back-up, door man, and control man and an officer you will be able to efficiently cover more of the structure and move the line more easily instead of two lines clumslily advanced with 2 men on each.

    Just an idea.

    FTM-PTB

  5. #65
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Let's look at these facts.

    Calendar year 2003
    111 Total LODD
    53 firefighters died from heart attacks.
    22 died responding to or returning from alarms.
    75 total FF's died from just these two factors.

    Nearly 3/4 of all the firefighter deaths last year...

    Now....where do you think we should start our efforts to eliminate LODDs?
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  6. #66
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    I think the heart attack stat can be misleading to some degree.

    While some can be attributed to old vollies (when I say old I mean those 70-80+yr old ones)
    Some can be attributed to poor health or genetic factors

    I think a contributing factor that is often overlooked is, did low staffing contribute to this individual being overworked and placing undue stress on the heart.

    It is pretty simple when you have only two guys on the handline they are going to have to work quite a bit more than if there was a 3rd member to feed hose around corners. Could this stress from low staffing and that additional stress created by encapsulation exacerbate any existing problems.

    I seem to remember Boston found that the bunker gear caused more cardiac problems than it prevented burns, thus creating its contriverisal turnout gear policy.

    I think there are some similarities between this subject and the injury rates of 3,4 & 5 member Engine companies experienced in the studies referenced in the formation of NFPA 1710.

    Some interesting things to consider.

    FTM-PTB

  7. #67
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Excellent points FFFRED. No doubt, staffing shortages contribute to the problem.

    I came upon this ten year study:

    The USFA Firefighter Fatality Retrospective Study: 1990-2000

    The key findings of the study include:


    The leading cause of death for firefighters is heart attack – 44%. Death from trauma, including internal and head injuries, is the second leading cause of death – 27%. Asphyxia and burns account for 20% of firefighter fatalities.

    Each year in the United States, approximately 100 firefighters are killed while on duty and tens of thousands are injured. Although the number of firefighter fatalities has steadily decreased over the past 20 years, the incidence of firefighter fatalities per 100,000 incidents has actually risen over the last 5 years, with 1999 having the highest rate of firefighter fatalities per 100,000 incidents since 1978.

    Firefighters under the age of 35 are more likely to be killed by traumatic injuries than they are to die from medical causes (e.g., heart attack, stroke). After age 35, the proportion of deaths due to traumatic injuries decreases, and the proportion of deaths due to medical causes rises steadily.

    Since 1984, motor vehicle collisions have accounted for between 20 and 25% of all firefighter fatalities, annually. One quarter of the firefighters who died in MVCs were killed in private/personally owned vehicles. Following POVs, the apparatus most often involved in fatal collisions were water tankers, engines/pumpers, and airplanes. More firefighters are killed in tanker collisions than in engines and ladders combined.

    About 27% of fatalities killed in MVCs were ejected from the vehicle at the time of the collision. Only 21%of firefighters were reportedly wearing their seatbelts prior to the collision.

    Approximately 60% of all firefighter fatalities were individuals over the age of 40, and one-third were over the age of 50. Nationwide, firefighters over the age of 40 make up 46% of the fire service, with those over 50 accounting for only 16% of firefighters. About 40% of volunteer firefighters are over the age of 50, compared to 25% of career firefighters.

    The majority of firefighter fatalities –57%– were members of local or municipal volunteer fire agencies (including combination departments, which are composed of both career and volunteer personnel).

    Full-time career firefighters account for 33% of firefighter fatalities. Numerically more volunteer firefighters are killed than career personnel, yet career personnel lose their lives at a rate disproportionate to their representation in the fire service.

    In many fire departments, EMS calls account for between 50 and 80% of their emergency call volume. These EMS incidents result in only 3% of firefighter fatalities. Trauma (internal/head) accounts for the deaths of 50% of firefighters who were involved in EMS operations at the time of their fatal injury. Another 38% involved in EMS operations died from heart attack.
    ______________________________ ______________

    Nearly one quarter of the deaths....resulted from motor vehicle collisions.

    Buckle up. Drive carefully. It's a start.

    The complete report may be viewed and downloaded from the USFA web site at:
    http://www.usfa.fema.gov/inside-usfa/nfdc/fa-220.shtm
    Last edited by NJFFSA16; 07-09-2004 at 08:03 PM.
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  8. #68
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Has anyone seen any kind of studies/stats on heart attacks related to staffing?

    From an NFPA study:

    On the fire ground and off, heart attacks are the leading killer of firefighters. In 2002, 37 on-duty firefighters died of heart attacks: 13 firefighters suffered heart attacks on the fire ground, eight while traveling to or from a fire or other emergency, seven while engaged in normal administrative activities, six at non-fire emergencies, two during training activities, and one while cleaning up after a tornado. In addition, two firefighters had strokes during training activities and one suffered an aneurysm at a medical call.
    The numbers alone do not tell the story. We need to know what other factors were involved, e.g. stress, age, staffing, medical history, etc.
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  9. #69
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    Davey,I look at it this way.Dinos like me keep the "pups" healthy.And I'm not quite ready to go turn over into oil.I'm still learnin' and you guys are helpin'.I'm still up for a good charge in when the "pups" are trying to "cockroach" but I'm also smart enough to know when to go outside.All the issues we've discussed are valid but circunstances will only change when "we" collectively WAKE UP! Every now and again the big boss and I go head to head.It usually isn't pretty but the aftermath in every case to date has been safer/better operations for the crew.The most valuable asset I have is my people and THEY are my primary concern.We all deal with staffing cuts every day but I counter that with increased alarms when necessary.Many hands make easy work,overworked,tired FFs are dangerous and accident prone.Not for me,thanks.Too bad it's so hard to sell this program.I'll retire when we hit 0 lodd or half a century whichever occurs first.T.C.

  10. #70
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    Default T.C. 1000 APLOGIES

    Sorry about that. I guess I proved your point..DAMN slackers
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  11. #71
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    Originally posted by FFFRED
    Samson,

    You can have your opinion but I feel it is greatly misguided.

    Exactly what is wrong with tradition? Tradition is the the passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.

    I get a feeling many of you denounce tradition without really having a clue about what you are talking about.

    I gaurantee every one of your depts has a tradition... whether it is
    cooking breakfast every Saturday as a company...or giving the Chauffuers seat to the senior man, or the method in which you decide who is to wash the dishes. The social culture of your dept, that is all tradition.

    FTM-PTB
    Sixteen initiatives came out of the summit. Briefly, they are:

    1. Define and advocate the need for cultural change related to safety, leadership, management and personal responsibility;

    The number one initiative of the summit was the need for cultural change.

    You say yourself: The social culture of your dept, that is all tradition.

    When you add up your statments and the summits number one initiative it ends up being tradition that needs to change.

    IMO most of what you mentioned has nothing to do with traditon. Who rides where, who works when, who goes where at the fire ground... That is not tradition, that is SOPs and management.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  12. #72
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    Originally posted by ChiefReason
    Some of you are confusing history with tradition.
    Firefighters dying in the line of duty is part of our fire service history. Firefighters have been dying since the day Nero set fire to Rome. In this country, it has been since Ben Franklin formed the first volunteer fire department.

    CR
    So what about the core issues?

    Drinking and the fire service, bars in firehalls? Tradition or History? It still goes on so what would it be?

    Riding unbuckled in fire apparatus or standing up riding fire apparatus? Tradition or History? It also still goes on.

    These are of course cultural issues that need to become history. It could be said, given that tradition is where the culture of the fire service comes from, that the tradition needs to die so firefighters dont.

    But thats just my opinion and its probly very misguided since I am an arrogant <30 something that thinks I might have a logical thought...
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Some it seems, might have misunderstood the concept of tradition.

    While the culture is part of Tradition and is passed down through the years, it isn't the only part of tradition.

    Sampson, Based on your comments it seems you feel only bad things represent tradition. All you list is some unfortunate issues we must confront. While a certian practice is tradition and perhaps should be discontinued that doesn't equate to having "tradition" in itself being a bad thing.

    For you to disassociate fireground tactics and procedures from tradition is shortsighted.

    How do you think these procedures where created...did some chief just sit down one day and write Ladders 3, or Engine Co. Ops Ch6. Where did they get thier information from. What did they base these procedures on?

    Originally they were passed on orally from senior man to junior man. Whatever it was it was tested again and again by fireman after fireman at many fires untill it was shown to be a proven and safe tactic. At some point it became the traditional method or proceedure for a certain task and was put to paper.

    The safest way to the roof of a tennement is in the following order, Adjoining bldg., aerial ladder, fire escape. I'm sure that was passed from truckie to truckie by word of mouth for many years before it was placed into a procedural manual.

    The way I was shown how to perform the control position during standpipe operations, was from a senior man who when he got on 20+ yrs ago was shown the same way by a senior man how to dump the bag and what to do. And as a probie that senior man was shown what to do...and so on and so on.

    I've been shown techniques for easily tying knots for hoisting hose, or determining whether a well hole is big enough for a hose, that aren't in any of our Volumes of procedural manuals. It is passed on by oral tradition.

    And yes traditionally the senior man on the backstep in my Engine gets the Knob if he so chooses.

    And tradtionally the Truck senior man on the backstep gets the OVM.

    I'm pretty sure none of those tradtions will change.

    It has nothing to do with Management or SOPs or whatever. It isn't stuff in the books. It is passed on down through the years as a verbal tradition.

    FTM-PTB

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    More random thoughts:

    1. Add the fire fighters killed during training and it brings it up to 86 preventable deaths

    2. Fixing the leadership vacuum won’t “help you tonight” either. The civil service system allows gutless, spineless, wimps with poor tactical knowledge to be promoted. It always has and it always will. It will take as long to change that fact as it will to change the fire service culture.

    3. There will be a dramatic reduction in fire fighter deaths if we caused a dramatic reduction in fires.

    4. Most fire fighters do not actively condone aggressive fire prevention because they don’t want to stop fires.

    5. Turnout gear does not cause heart attacks. A FF who is out of shape or has cardiac disease under the turnout gear causes heart attacks.

    6. Part of the culture change should include not allowing 75 year olds to fight fire.

    7. Most of the problem with “tradition” and “history” is that we NEVER, EVER learn from our mistakes.

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    The most valuable asset I have is my people and THEY are my primary concern. We all deal with staffing cuts every day but I counter that with increased alarms when necessary.
    You know, your first sentence could very well be the motto for this whole thing. Firefighters are an assett, and they need to come first. How many places worry more about scratching the new engine than they do about safe and effective fireground operations? Not to say they are putting the trucks first, rather saying we have been conditioned into accepting injuries and deaths as "part of the job". Wake up folks.....1 injury is too many.

    Look at the stats posted by Ed. Even if you take away the 70 year olds and the genetic heart risks, there are still too may guys having heart attacks. Why? Donuts and one arm recliner exercises. (Do you think the donut industry will come after me?) This job requires strength and STAMINA. Too often we accept the big fellas as OK, because we rationalize that we need strong guys to help out. Did I mention mandatory refresher training before? What about mandatory physical fitness.

    The motor vehicle deaths are mind boggling as well as preventable. Slower responses, seatbelts, no DUI..these should solve some of the problems.

    How about strict fines as well as discipline for Motor Vehicle Violations? Or not letting a Junior Operator with a license for six months "respond" to the station or call.

    Dave

  16. #76
    MembersZone Subscriber ullrichk's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    More random thoughts:
    5. Turnout gear does not cause heart attacks. A FF who is out of shape or has cardiac disease under the turnout gear causes heart attacks.
    I think recent studies have also identified rapid dehydration and consequent loss of stroke volume as a major contributing factor in athletes and firefighters. Add in the genetic/health issues and you have some bad mojo working against you.

    Personal responsibility: eat right, lots of fluids all the time, strength and cardio training, no tobacco use.

    Management responsibility: adequate staffing so as not to overwork your firefighters, mandatory rehab of sufficient quality and duration to reduce core temperature and rehydrate, a personal and organizational commitment to the items I listed under personal responsibility.

    Up for debate: at what point should a firefighter ask for (or be forced into) reassignment based on known cardiac health problems?
    ullrichk
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    Default Re: Some real problems with real simple solutions

    Originally posted by FFFRED

    When officers are allowed to standback and suppervise, when Battalion Chiefs are allowed to focus on the strategy . . .because they don't have a chiefs aide, when promotions are based on experience and relevant job knowledge then and only then will you see an reduction in injuries and deaths.
    I would agree that all fire departments could use some degree of management reform (ranging from a little tweaking to outright lynching, depending on the department), but I don't think we can blame management for all our ills. At some point there has to be personal responsibility as well.

    Exercise is a personal choice. Seatbelts are a personal choice. Not smoking is a personal choice. Not responding while under the influence of drugs or alcohol is a personal choice.

    If we honestly believe that management bears the sole responsibility for reducing LODDs and injuries, then we are part of the problem. That's what they meant when they said there must be a cultural change.
    ullrichk
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  18. #78
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Add the fire fighters killed during training and it brings it up to 86 preventable deaths
    George is 99.9% correct on this one. For example:

    Training deaths, such as those in Osceola County, Florida, were the result of non-compliance with the live burn standards contained in NFPA 1403. Preventable! Ron Golden's death in Lairdsville, NY was the result of non-compliance with the live burn standards contained in NFPA 1403. Preventable!

    Other incidents may not be completely preventable. The 2 FF's below, may have died regardless of recommendations by NIOSH....but the odds would have been greater for survival if standards were modified at the training facility.

    NIOSH REPORT-Texas FF Training Death, February 12, 2003

    On February 12, 2003, a 46-year-old male career Fire Fighter Recruit was performing the tower climb portion of his fire fighter recruit training. After reaching the sixth (top) floor of the training tower for the third time that morning, he began to have leg and neck pain. The pain was severe enough that crew members carried him down the stairs and onto the sidewalk. Shortly thereafter, he lost consciousness. Crew members assessed him and found him to be unresponsive, not breathing, and pulseless. Approximately 37 minutes later, despite cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and advanced life support (ALS) administered on-scene and at the hospital, the Recruit died. The autopsy revealed "cardiac hypertrophy," "biventricular dilatation" and "cardiomegaly." The death certificate listed "cardiac hypertrophy" as the immediate cause of death.

    Recommendations by NIOSH

    1. Consider incorporating exercise stress tests at part of the Fire Department’s medical evaluation program.

    2. Equip training instructors with portable radios.

    3. Ensure defibrillation equipment is readily available for emergency use during training.


    The Complete Report and Recommendations

    Fire Fighter-Paramedic Suffers Sudden Cardiac Death While Performing Physical Fitness Training – Washington

    On November 17, 2003, a 35-year-old male career Fire Fighter-Paramedic (FF-P) had just completed a two-mile run on the fire station’s treadmill when he suddenly collapsed. The collapse was witnessed by a crew member (Lieutenant) who called Dispatch for assistance. Approximately 30 seconds later, the FF-P had stopped breathing and became pulseless. The crew member retrieved the station’s automated external defibrillator (AED) and defibrillated the FF-P while beginning cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR). Other advanced life support (ALS) began to arrive at the fire station and resuscitation efforts continued for an additional 22 minutes. Unfortunately, there was no change in his status, and the FF-P was pronounced dead at the scene by the Medical Examiner. The death certificate and autopsy, completed and performed by the Medical Examiner, listed "occlusive atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease" as the immediate cause of death.

    The following recommendations address some general health and safety issues. This list includes some preventive measures that have been recommended by other agencies to reduce the risk of on-the-job heart attacks and sudden cardiac arrest among fire fighters. These selected recommendations have not been evaluated by NIOSH, but represent published research, or consensus votes of technical committees of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) or fire service labor/management groups.

    Although unrelated to this fatality, the Fire Department should consider these recommendations based on health and economic considerations:

    1. Provide pre-placement medical evaluations to ALL fire fighters consistent with NFPA 1582 to determine their medical ability to perform duties without presenting a significant risk to the safety and health of themselves or others.

    2. Provide mandatory annual medical evaluations to ALL fire fighters consistent with NFPA 1582 to determine their medical ability to perform duties without presenting a significant risk to the safety and health of themselves or others.

    3. Perform a pre-placement and an annual physical performance (physical ability) evaluation for ALL fire fighters to ensure they are physically capable of performing the essential job tasks of structural fire fighting.

    4. Provide adequate fire fighter staffing to ensure safe operating conditions.


    The recommendation highlighted in RED is consistent with FFFRED's observations in an earlier post. Staffing DOES affect stress levels on the fireground. Yet many career fire departments around our country, flirt with dangerously low staffing of the stations. Budget/Financial concerns? Most definitely. Volunteer departments struggle with recruiting personnel. The question remains as to how we overcome this ever increasing fact.

    George's thoughts, that training deaths are preventable...hold true for all but a few circumstances. If we could prevent 99.9% of training related deaths....it would be a considerable reduction in the overall causes of LODD's. Lower numbers that more of us could live with! Training deaths such as Osceola and Lairdsville...are unacceptable.
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    Originally posted by ullrichk


    I think recent studies have also identified rapid dehydration and consequent loss of stroke volume as a major contributing factor in athletes and firefighters. Add in the genetic/health issues and you have some bad mojo working against you.

    Personal responsibility: eat right, lots of fluids all the time, strength and cardio training, no tobacco use.

    Management responsibility: adequate staffing so as not to overwork your firefighters, mandatory rehab of sufficient quality and duration to reduce core temperature and rehydrate, a personal and organizational commitment to the items I listed under personal responsibility.

    Up for debate: at what point should a firefighter ask for (or be forced into) reassignment based on known cardiac health problems?
    Two excellent points about responsibility.

    As for the debate, when a Doctor says so. Many people(myself included) have known Cardiac conditions that do not inhibit their ability to do the job at hand.

    Ultimately only a Doctor can decide when is when......

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    Exclamation

    2. Fixing the leadership vacuum won’t “help you tonight” either. The civil service system allows gutless, spineless, wimps with poor tactical knowledge to be promoted. It always has and it always will. It will take as long to change that fact as it will to change the fire service culture.
    George I think you are way off base here. I spent years working in non civil service depts where basicly if you took alot of BS NFA classes, and could BS the chief and he liked you and didn't view you as a threat...he would promote you. Any tests were just an excersise in charades to make you think there was some objectivity to the tests. There was no requirement you had to know any realworld tactics or strategy. And sometimes it showed.

    Now today I work accross the Hudson from you. Where one has to spend years studying the procedures and policies. Hours each day are spent for years just so they can hopefully pass the test.

    While it has occasionaly promoted some dopes, they still had to memorize the policies and procedures.

    Is this system perfect...does it allow some idiots to promote?...sure a few, but as was seen in Chicago it is much more preferable to have a system that promotes on tactical knowledge than croynisim.

    Also I don't know what your experience has been but My dept culture doesn't allow such gutless, spineless, wimps to last in company officer spots, at least where I work...I'm sure there is a place for them but I've never met one. However in my past dept that promoted whom ever the chief decided on, had guys who were sometimes a little less than enthusisastic about going into a fire and one could tell some of them knew little about what they were doing.

    In addition once you are tennured in a spot here in the civil service system you have protections which leads to having guys who aren't afraid to speak up because there is no argument or no person who has a grudge against you, nothing that will prevent you from attaining the next rank.

    Fixing the leadership vaccum will help alot sooner than trying to convince the gerneral populous to put sprinklers in thier house...considering almost all of them don't think it will happen to them.

    FTM-PTB

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