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  1. #101
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    Originally posted by FFFRED
    Once again for those who missed it...

    Certian practices might have been traditional...
    Certain practices within that tradition might need to be discontinued...

    Tradition is NOT the problem.
    Tradition is what has held societies together for eons...and it is what holds your fire dept culture together.

    Tradition isn't "nonsense"...ignorance is.

    The campaign to demonize "tradition" needs to end. I've seen too many fireground actions get labled "traditional" and as such are viewed as dangerous.

    Such as:
    Searching without a handline...
    Venting windows...
    VES...
    Stretching dry to the point of operation...

    All of these and more have been at one time or another during my career been explained to me as dangerous and is only that traditional s@$% that big cities do.

    I know first hand of many supposed experienced Chief Officers that demonized just about everything my current dept does. I know that many will read into this list and see themselves as the good guys.

    I know many officers who are long on ICS table top excersize experience and short on actual firefloor time will claim the culture of anything that didn't come out of Phoneix or Firescope is what needs to excised from the fire service.

    And then you'll have the other side that would like to see all the cowards that hide their inexperience behind almost meaningless credentials removed from the fire service altogether. You know the type, the ones who rocketed to the top ranks, often skipping a few and now find themselves trying to impress everone with their EFO certificate and ICS vest. This all despite the fact, they don't know what it requires to force a door, perform a search or make a push into a cellar with a 2 1/2". Their ignorance leads to fear and fear leads to cowardice and thus deriliction of duty.

    Tradition isn't the problem...ignorance is.

    FTM-PTB
    I will be honest with you, what the heck are you talking about? I realy dont have a clue what you are trying to say.

    I think you may have a definition of tradition that is very different from any that I have ever come across.

    With the firefithers I work with tactics and such are not "tradition", they are SOPs and plans of action.

    Tradition is drinking at the firehall on New Years eve, ridding on the back of brush trucks to catch running wildfires, calling slurry "Mud", the Beer Keg on a Cable water fight, the annual Sausage supper. Tradition is generaly the BAD HABITS!!!

    Those are IMO what a "tradition" is, and there are a few on that list we have been trying to make "History" for some time.

    I just dont get the tradionalists and why they consider word/idea more important then firefighter safety.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  2. #102
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    Originally posted by SteveDude
    UllrichK,

    I read with interest some of the distances run by rural US Fire Crews. Most of our inner city attendance times are a max of 5-8 minutes, 20 minutes is the lowest National Attendance standard forthe most extreem rural area. With areas the size Samson mentions obviously MVA's are a major issue. I don't think I run that many miles in all the calls I attend in a year!!!

    Don't forget we also do not see Wild fires like you guys...we have quite a lot of grass/forest fires in the summer, especially up on the moors or in Wales and so on, but nothing like you Guys get...no Dedicated Wildland Firefighters, no one up in Choppers or areoplanes, the diversity of the US makes it very difficult to 'Standardise' as we do in the UK'
    Nothing like getting sent out to IA a running wildfire that is over an hour away! You know its going to be a good one by the time you get there. There were some cases when I used to work with the US BLM/USFS where we would head out from homebase to IA a fire 120 highway miles away plus what ever trail/off road time it takes. Those usualy got very big...

    I agree that the wildfires in the US have largely been ignored in this conversation so far. It is hard for many of the city slickers and metro folks to conprehend a full blown forest fire.

    The thing with wildfire is that pretty much every firefighter is in very good shape, you have to take the pack test every year, and with some agencies monthly. So heart attacks are less of an issue.

    But, miles traveled, aircraft, and major blow up is where the most LODDs come from.

    When a wildfire goes wrong, you usualy loose many a fire fighter.

    The aircraft issue is a big one as well. At least 1 LODD this fire season form a SEAT crash, and those are supposed to be the safe ones.

    The "traditional" aircraft are so unsafe that the powers that be grounded them this year.

    I do wish we could do more standardization, but that would mean a fire service that is for the most part federaly or state funded I would imagine. That is not the case in the US. There are a lot of fire service organizations that could not aford to equip to a national standard.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  3. #103
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    Sampson,

    That is the same thing I think when I read your statements.

    Go read the definintion of tradition again. Mine is the one I posted earlier from Mr. Webster. Go to the local College and take a sociology class and learn what culture, traditions are.

    How do you think SOPs came to be? Did someone one day in a vacuum write them. Were they based on anything? At some point there was a first time firefighting procedures were written down. Before that they were passed down from senior men to the junior men. Developing a tradition of methods and practices. Therefore your dept has a "traditional" method of extinguishing fire.

    I'm not going to repeat what I wrote. Read it again. Your view on Tradition as I see it is very shallow.

    It seems to me you think all bad things are traditional. And all things Traditional are bad.

    While some practices you find objectionable might have been a tradition. Tradition in and of itself isn't a bad thing.

    FTM-PTB

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    Exclamation Bad Habits??? By whos judgement?

    I just dont get the tradionalists and why they consider word/idea more important then firefighter safety.
    Where do you get this stuff guy?

    Here lets talk about that comment and one DrParasite made earlier that made alot of sense (to me anyhow)

    Dave, I'm not trying to. But be honest, when was the last time you saw FDNY guys say "Hey, I hear hicksville FD does this on calls, so we should do it to"? Now compare that with a small department saying "Hey, FDNY does it this way, we should do it too." bad habbits are bad habbits, but remember, little brothers tend to want to emulate big brothers, not the other way around.
    Now from my perspective myself and other so called tradtionalists don't put words or ideas ahead of safety; infact most if not all the guys I work with care more about how we perform at a fire than whether our rig would past the white glove test(I worked for chief who would actually do that!) Is that shirt Ironed? Does it matter? We all look the same in bunker gear. I been to alot of places where they have really nice rigs and nicely pressed shirts...but when it comes to actually performing a search or a stretch, the consistantly foul it up. Throwing a portable ladder and VESing a room is regarded as dangerous, and even if they tried they wouldn't know how to do it. I know guys who can quote IFSTA this and NFPA that but I could hand them a halligan(usually some cheap knockoff of the real thing) and they don't know how to force a simple inward swinging door!

    Substance over symbolism, Actions over words.

    I've worked in alot of places in a wide variety of situations. From personal experience I can note more so called bad habbits from smaller cities and towns than I can now in the FDNY.

    What am I talking about?

    Try on these:

    1 3/4 hose with Fog tips for Everything. That includes
    -Commercial Warehouses
    -High Rise Standpipes
    -Taxpayers (stripmalls for the rest of you)
    -Heavy fire conditions...
    -etc.

    Not using riding assignments with pre-assigned tools, and responsibilites. Despite the fact it increases efficency, safety and accountability. (Usually some Chief with a vest and clipboard hands out assignments as he sees fit...everytime and every shift is different. There is no continuity, or order. They just re-write the book on firefighting each time.)

    Sending entire companies to the roof of peaked roof dwelling, including the officer.

    Stretching short because all they know is pull the preconnect.

    Placing the Thermal imager and Rotary Saws in boxes and sometimes buried where you have to remove salvage covers, deodorizers and hose rollers to get to them.

    Teaching that protection fog thing. Just open up your nozzle from the "attack cone" and all will be well. Has anyone ever bothered to note when brothers die in flashovers with a handline what nozzle they have in their hand?

    Recklessly using PPV: disregarding any potential victims and vent holes(windows) that may or may not be open.

    Failure to ALWAYSconduct a proper primary search ahead of the line and secondary search afterwards. (That is the only way you are really going to save the most lives.)

    Operating with only 6 to 12 members for any and every structure fire. Some of you want to change the culture or deaths. Tell them if they can't or won't give you more guys then all you can assure them is the buildings on either side won't burn. See how fast people voluneer or find the $$$. And if it isn't possible then they made the decision to live there outside a city with decent fire protection, and they will just have to live with it.

    You want to learn from history, there is enough evidence from my dept alone to justify not doing any of the above. And that isn't including all the other NISOH reports that one could cite from other cities.

    Furthermore I see many comments in places like the Roundtable in FireEngineering where a probie in my dept clearly has a better grip on basic Firefighting safety and fireground operations than many chiefs and officers across the counrty.

    If we are the ones with the bad habits, how come Chiefs and company officers from Maybery, USA don't have the first clue about search, ventialtion, and fire streams?

    Go ahead and keep practicing the self-locking twin donut roll. Keep using fog tips on standpipes, And Spend 2/3s of a day of the accademy focusing on searching by holding the boot of the guy infront of you for your FFI or FFIV or whatever BS certificate you get...meanwhile we will make sure our probies have bad habits such as having a pair of wire cutters in their right hand pocket or drilling into them under what conditons they transmit and Urgent or Mayday.

    Fighting fires in my city hasn't signifigantly changed in 40-50 years. How is it we have the bad habits? Our procedures and "habits" have often been proven in over probably 100,000 fires over 30+ years. What have you got to show for your so called good habits? Why should we follow those who have less experience and knowledge?

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 07-11-2004 at 02:22 PM.

  5. #105
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    I think that the word "Tradition" is often mis-used and overused.

    Not everything traditional is bad.....

    Not everything traditional is good....

    In many cases, good and bad depends on your perspective.

    I said some of this before and I will elaborate some. Not everything done in others places will work were youy work. There is no way that we could institute a riding assignment system, similar to the FDNY's that would work. Why you ask? Because at 8am this morning there were 3 of us in HQ. At 8:05 we went out in the ambulance reducing the HQ staffing to 1. 1 FF was hired back to bring it up to 2. Our staffing is too fluid to maintain a riding list. But there are other ways around that for us. Does that make the "Traditional" FDNY way of tracking personnel bad? Nope. They just are not as easy for us to use as some others.

    Some Traditions are good,

    - Junior men being taught by Senior members.
    - Officers first in last out

    Some Traditions are bad,

    - Bars in Firehouses
    - Riding standing up

    But you can also call these practices. So in some cases its all in a word. Go back to the list. We need to change how we "culturally" view firefighting. It doesn't mean the FDNY is right or wrong. Or East Podunk hasn't a clue. It means that each and every one of us has to stop accepting that it is OK for guys to die doing this job. We cannot accept that your partner, 100 pounds overweight, is going to be just fine. We cannot accept that it is too difficult to wear your seatbelt while responding to a call.


    You guys can hit that Tradition ball back and forth all day. You'll never end up getting past the point of thinking the other guy is wrong. The FDNY is very good at taking their past "experiences" and learning and teaching from them. So is Phoenix. Go read the Southwest Supermarket Fire Report and see what they did after the death of one of their own.

    I have been fortunate to have some good training opportunities. From these I bring back ideas that I think can work for our Department. There are other ideas that I would love to be able to do, or see implemented, that I know are not likly to happen based on our manpower and the way we operate.

    There are 16 points for us to discuss and we are wrapped around number 1. Obviously it is significant, but I think you are trying to hard to pin it down to one cause.

    Tradition does not kill our Brothers, Niether does progress. What kills our Brothers is an unsafe approach to an even more unsafe job. The attitude that no risk is too great. The attitude that it can't happen to me.

    I just read this in the book The Last Men Out...

    "Even if you don't do anything wrong, you can get killed on this job. I'm always trying to be ready for whatever can happen." Patty Brown - FDNY

    Be ready for whatever can happen. Assume the worst and hope for the best.

    Dave
    Last edited by hfd66truck; 07-11-2004 at 02:39 PM.

  6. #106
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    hfd66truck,
    I agree the term is widely missued.

    I think you to some degree understand what I am saying. I see many trying to pin the problems on leather helmets and big city firefighters...when we have nothing to do with the problem in your city or anywhere else for that matter.

    Also as for riding assignments... As noted in the Fire Officers Handbook of tactics:

    If you have 12 men on the 1st Alarm asignment...then have riding assignments for 12 men. If you have 18 on the 1st alarm, have 18.

    I know many upstate and Long Island Volly houses that have riding assingments labled in thier seats. The seats are filled in order of importance (example: Driver, Officer, Irons, OV...whatever.)

    Just because the FDNY outlines operations for 4 Engines and 3 Ladders (3rd being FAST Trk.) on the First alarm...doesn't mean you need to outline as many positions.

    If you only get one truck. Then assign the one truck duties.

    I worked in midsized suburban depts where some times you had two companies with handlines and no one with tools based on what the IC assigned once we arrived at the fire.

    You never knew who was carrying what if they had anything at all. Let me tell you it is hard to get ahead of a fire in the walls and cockloft without hooks and halligans!

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 07-11-2004 at 03:21 PM.

  7. #107
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    Ffred,Riding assignments?With two or three seat pumps?NOT EXACTLY! We cross train ALL of pur personnel so they can do any required task.I have people that lean one way or the other(truck or knuckle dragger),I know who they are and IF they show;where I'll use them.So I guess I must be one of those "bad"Chief's.Only time I've EVER used a smooth bore(we use large gpm automatics)was on a "gun" or in a neighboring town so I guess I better not go into a high rise(won't be a problem unless 4 floors constitute one).I'm guessing we all have different needs and assignments based on RESPONSE area.In my area I find the vests quite helpful,many of the Chief's I used to work for have retired and new folks are the IC in areas we don't frequent often.I know our response areas are different,my primary area is about 60 sq. miles.We do Hazmat for three counties beyond that.Many,many sq. miles.So geography plays a factor in our equasion as well.And as Dave points out;while we all have a common thread what works for you in NY would not work well here in the piney woods of Maine nor would you find some of our practices working for you in the city.I FULLY agree with you that strong basic skills must be taught and known by ALL but after that some local modification may be required.T.C.

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    Throwing that word "safety" around pretty liberally, aren't we?
    What is safety? You in the back with your hand up.
    "Safety is the ability to recognize a hazard and correct it before someone gets hurt or killed."
    Ah; that's very good. How do you do that?
    "By inspecting your work area everyday; by talking about safety everyday; by reinforcing negatively or positively safe/unsafe behavior."
    You should be a safety officer. Now; when your work area changes with each resident that you enter, how would you control that environment in terms of knowing what it looks like before you enter for a fire?
    "Well; alot of cities have an inspection program and many others have pre-plans where they have been given permission by the property owner for them to come in and 'map out' the residence. Also, to recognize and mitigate any known hazards. You would make notes of such things as gas or electric cooking stoves or hot water heaters, whether the grill was charcoal or natural gas; if the resident had hobbies that required hazardous materials; you know, anything that could dramatically accelerate the fire and heat."
    What about PPE? You know; turnout gear, SCBA.
    "Making sure that the gear correctly donned is very important. Something as simple as not fastening all of the fasteners could cause serious burns. Not having the Nomex hood pulled completely over the mask so as not to expose skin; same deal. Not getting a good seal on the BA mask can be a real bummer. Forgetting to turn on the PASS device could cost you your life. PPE is probably the most important part of personal safety."
    Do you believe that the building "talks" to you when you arrive?
    "Absolutely. If you have had any building construction or fire behavior, the building, smoke and fire will tell you alot that will keep you out of trouble later."
    Sounds like you take safety pretty seriously.
    "For me; it's a matter of life and death. I have to rely on ME first. If I take risks, that will mean that someone else will have to risk their safety for me. It's not fair to them that I took the risks that got me into a bad situation. If I stay focused, correctly read what the building is telling me, talk with the others to make sure that they see the same things, then the scene will be alot safer and in many cases, predictable."
    The moral of the story is that until each and every person realizes and understands their responsibility for their personal safety, risks will be taken that will cause that person their own death or cause the death of someone trying to rescue them.
    Until the general public understands that their lack of regard for even the simplest safety guidelines can cause serious injury or death, firefighters will continue to die, whether at the scene or in getting to and from the scene, but the event will be the cause.
    CR
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    Rescue 101-

    I am not suggesting wholesale adoption of anything. However I do speak from my experience of working in places where nothing was assigned, and we were all "cross-trained" as you and others have put it.

    The organization was rough...sometimes 2nd due might mean to one Batt Chief stretch a back-up line.(meanwhile search and ventilation wasn't done. Then the next night a different BC was in charge and he might like the 2nd Due to be the RIT or they would search the floor above...there was never any consistancy. Some companies would bring tools, some wouldn't(those that didn't sometimes would have to return to the rig for tools). Some, only a few guys had tools. Some would stretch before finding the route to the fire(like there was no access to the basement from the inside. The Chief had us commit two lines before this was discovered!)

    Through my own experience and through friends in lots of different depts I can see that this isn't an uncommon occurance.

    You and others mention all your men are cross trained... So are ours.
    We are not talking about what training they recive in the adcademy or what they are taught in the field. That isn't the issue. In the FDNY and every city FD I know of, you are trained in all aspects, Engine and Ladder. In all the academies I have attended I was always taught all aspects. Even though I am assigned to and Engine Co. I am trained and continue to drill on all the Truck Company responsibilites. I do get detailed to Ladder Companies occasionaly.

    We are talking about the fact that you can't adequately 100% of the time know that while you assigned certian Engine or Ladder to Force Entry and search... Are they going to always bring the appropriate tools for the job? Where are they going to search, fire floor? floor above? Is someone bringing a hook? Did someone bring the Irons? How about a can? It is much easier for a company or group of guys to size up a building and fire when they know what their general duties will be. I worked on a Quint for years and was supposed to be profficent in EVERYTHING. Well despite my best efforts I can assure you I wasn't. It takes a lot of commitment of the dept and all members of a company including its officer to be truly profficent in all aspects. I'd say the majority don't meet this critieria.

    I've been there when the IC was so overwhelmed with intial companies, reports from dispatch and such that we were standing there waiting for him to "re-Write" the book on firefighting. While one company was already in there operating a line...we were standing in the street holding our D@%#s.

    The facts are out there and there is plenty of evidence that pre-assignment of the simple intial operations at a fire...that ALWAYS must be performed is far supperior to showing up to get your assignment from the guy who just so happens to be the IC that day.

    Critical tasks DO get overlooked when you are relying on the 1st guy to show up to make all the decisions.

    I was a fireman for the better part of a decade before joining the FDNY. Since that time, I haven't seen the same problems , confusion and inconsistancy I have encountered elsewhere . Is it because we are smarter or better? I can say NO. It is same Circus, different clowns. some are smart guys, some aren't so bright. Just like everywhere else. There is a difference and it has to come from the organization and system.

    Everyone Paid, Volly, Big city or small, always claims they are into the safety thing...that we should have national standards...well I say then the bar is set pretty high.

    Well here is your oportunity to actually make some inroads into increasing the safety of your men.

    During my accademy we looked at some NIOSH reports. We used it as a learning lesson and in the examples used...it was clear there was confusion at all these fires, and it could be largely be attributed to a lack of a plan for the intiall companies and each man's individual responsibilites.

    In one who was to gain control and operate the Fireman service elevators?

    Who was to search for the fire? What tools to bring?

    Why was an Engine assigned to search for the fire then they had to return to their rig to begin the stretch.(this is in a large metro FD with Engines and Ladders)

    Why was no one assigned to make sure the proper amount of hose is stretched and not lying in kinks in the bushes?

    In all of them there was poor coordination of search and support functions as often Engines would have to perform the duties of Ladders meanwhile the officers were overwhelmed by all the small decisions which should have been made before hand. As in who brings what and goes where.

    If you can rattle off all these duties, tool assignments and responsibilies to your men all as they arrive in the first few minutes then you are a better man than me.

    I've know it works for Norfolk, VA, a number of NJ cities and a large number of vollie companies in NY State. Some very credible experts in the fire service have been exclaiming the benfits of this system for years.

    It is a system to help out the Chiefs & Officers. I don't know why anyone wouldn't at least try to use some of it.

    FTM-PTB

    PS: I must disagree: 4 stories or 104 If you are using 1 3/4 and a fog tip off a standpipe you are a fool and are disregarding a number of FF deaths, the design of the system and the NFPA. See you at the funeral.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 07-11-2004 at 09:14 PM.

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    Interesting thoughts CR and well timed too.

    I think that in many cases we think because we talk about safety, we are actually safer. But in many cases we talk the talk, without walking the walk.

    PPE is a classic example. How many have worked with those, "its only an AFA guys"? Anybody? You know, coat undone, straps hanging.....

    The basics start with you. Squaring yourself away first, then you can move on to the next issue. Now I am sure there are some out there saying that I have no idea what I am talking about, because I don't go to 20 AFA's a day or whatever. Fine....but how hard is it to get dressed properly? I mean its our job right. This is more of the "culture" or "attitude" issues that need addressing. Many times this is seen more in the "old timers". After all, they've gone to this alarm a hundred times and its always nothing. I use the "nothing" calls like practice for the real thing. After all, practice makes perfect right?

    Dave

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    Awesome discussion.

    I am a company officer, so my concern is what I can do TODAY to improve safety.

    The things I have started doing are:
    Be an example. If I don't wear my seatbelt, how can I expect my guys to?
    Emphasize training on the basics.
    Post information on LODD's and why they happened.
    Take ACTION on any one who is being unsafe.
    Utilize the firehouse "grapevine" to make unsafe actions not "cool" anymore.
    Question chiefs or other officers when I see them acting unsafely.
    Give my guys the information they need to do the job the right way.

    What else can each of us do TODAY?
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

    Dusty, working on Crusty IACOJ

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    I don't know, Dave.
    Am I thinking that I'm hearing from some of the participants that they believe that SAFETY is someone else's responsibility?
    Take the role of safety officer. Just because you have a designated safety officer doesn't make it the sole responsibility of the safety officer to assure that Sparkey and the gang have properly dressed themselves for the fire. Just because the chief is on the scene doesn't mean that it is his sole responsibility to make sure that everyone is safe. It isn't even the company officer's sole responsibility for that matter. It is with each of us.
    But what I think I'm reading is that some would lead us to believe that we can legislate safety. Now; don't get me wrong, there are such things as safe job procedures and certainly are worth the time to draft and adopt. But if we don't instill them into our people everyday; if we don't create a culture where safety is not only an attitude, but required to be on the department.
    We seem to think that as long as the human element is involved, we are going to miss someone with our safety message. Unless they are in a cave or coma, how can they miss the message? How long have firefighters been dying? How long have we known that certain bad habits cause heart disease? Not wearing seat belts?
    How can anyone proclaim that they are a firefighter and NOT KNOW THAT IT'S THEIR SAFETY FIRST and everyone else gets what's left?
    Where is it written that we have to eat fatty foods, devour sugary snacks and drive our cholesterol over 300? Who says we have to drive fast to get there? And why do we have to wear all this crap at a fire scene?
    Because it is what is safe!
    Practice like you fight and then fight like you practice. An example here is that we have a neighboring department with a young lad on it and he likes to take his coat, helmet and even his shirt off at practices. He likes to run around in his bunker pants and no shirt, looking buff. How many of you out there think that he won't do the same thing at a fire scene, if given the opportunity? How many of you think that he will change his behavior without someone getting in his arse about it? The problem is that when nothing is said to the contrary, it will become accepted practice.
    Departments run their firegrounds differently based on a multitude of variables that include whether they are volunteer/career. Volunteer department have to cross train because of the uncertainty around who will show up at a call. Career can have truck, ladder, engine and rescue companies and specialize their tasks more readily than a volunteer department can.
    But it doesn't matter if you are volunteer or career if you are going to wait for the guy in charge to tell you to perform a task. If you haven't practiced and practiced some more to the point where activity at a fireground is pretty much automatic, then it is easy to blame a chief officer for not "being organized". A chief officer coordinates the scene; he doesn't "run" them. At least in my book. I teach our people to kick their brain in at the time of the alarm so they don't go brain dead later. They have been taught to think and react. They don't need to be told to button their coat or cut a hole.
    If I did my job as chief where it comes to training, then at a fire scene, I have the best seat in the house. Pass the popcorn.
    CR
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  13. #113
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    Congratulations hfd66truck and all who have posted, this is one of the best threads I've seen in the 4 years I have been visiting & posting here.

    FFFred & Chief Reason, EXCELLENT points on riding/seat assignments. I think Fred may have said it best in a different thread: Going to a fire without riding assignments is like playing a pickup basketball game at every fire. Nobody has any idea what they are doing until they get there and the IC "chooses up sides." Then we're already playing catch up, tasks and tools are forgotten and we run around looking like clowns. I wish I could get some of our Chiefs and Captains to read and understand this concept.
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    Well Ffred,I guess I'm going to fall into the fool pit.The highest bldg I have to deal with is 4 stories in the back,three on the street side.In the past thirty years or so we have had serious fire in this kind of occupancy and all have been extinguished with large capacity combi nozzles on varying size lines.None of these on the standpipe due to the fact that only two of these buildings ever had a standpipe such as it was.You might make it to my funeral(feel free)but I calculate it will be from old age not a fireground miscalculation.I have,in my career,created a parking lot or two when the risks outweigh the gains.And I'll probably have another before I retire.Again while some of the conditions we work under are similar,I enjoy a few latitudes that you DO NOT.Your location and "culture"would not allow it and in no way or form is that a slam.I respect your opinions and the fact in a lot of areas you are much more adept.You are also a bit of an inspiration to me and I enjoy debating certain issues with you.Construction around here is varied but when you've lived and worked in an area all your life you get a "sense"for bldgs you can operate in and those you cannot.Again similar/different.Do I pay attention to incidents where personnel get hurt/beat up by poor equipment/fixed facilities choices?Yes,I do.And we are gradually getting equipment back on the rigs.For a number of years the biggest attack line I had available was a 2".So you learn how to make that system work the job(I used two).But unfortunately I can't just wave a magic wand and make the bad go away.I CAN,however make intelligent choices for the well being of my personnel and have the training and experience to guide those decisions.It is always a pleasure to "spar" with you although sometimes you're a bit slow to "fire".Good one this time though.T.C.

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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    I agree. I also wonder where all the "tailboard riders" are hiding during this discussion. I'm of the mind that a big problem is young firefighters coming up in departments in which senior members pass off unsafe and reckless behavior as the norm. Senior guys out there that put "tradition" before the safety of their younger members should be ashamed. Newer firefighters may not be exposed to the importance of safety and wellness early in their careers and, as a result, become complacent (if not hostile) towards the idea.
    Happily to say, I could have fallen easily into the footsteps of some bad habits, not nec. a trad., but bad habits influenced onto me by older members.

    See, I said could have, meaning I didn't. Why? Because I did not let someones word be the end all regiment to follow. I was educated early on in my service, I also kept an open mind and listened to many people. That is what has led me to be congratulated by a neighboring company as one of the only completely suited up on all the calls we have with them, and know that I do the same on our own calls.

    I babble, bottom line all I know is I didnt get caught up in that hooblah, not to say I didnt listen to some war stories though. But I am safer because all of this.

    If I didnt even make a point I am sorry... I think I got something out.
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    Rescue101-

    I respect the situation you must face. Things are I am sure quite different in many respects but also the same too. At one time I was in a largely rural/small town area with ridculously low staffing, and poor resources.

    If you are operating off a standpipe. Use big hose and smoothbores. If like in the example you present (4 storys, and you've stretched handlines in lieu of using the standpipe) then use your fog tips. I wouldn't but since you aren't using the standpipes I digress. Use what you like. My only contention was the idea that it is acceptable to use fog tips on standpipes was ill concieved.

    Here is a little thought for everyone they can perhaps relate to the fire department:
    You can play Russian Roulette 100 times and win everytime, and on the 101st spin loose. Does that mean it was an intelligent thing to play, those first 100 times?

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 07-11-2004 at 09:46 PM.

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    I was just reading a FE roundtable discusion. The Chief's were split to some degree of where the training needs to take place, and on what level we need to focus to improve accountability and FF safety. Some Chief's said more ICS and 'strategic' training (big picture) others said more Company Officer and task level training.

    If safety begins with you, then the next obvious level to me would be the Company Officer. Strong policies regarding operations, and accountability for their people. Its the next logical step.

    Its hard to hold a Chief Officer responsible for Joey the Lump Lump Firefighter getting separated from his crew. Its really not his responsibility.

    I think CR is right, safety need to be part of the cultural change, but it can't just be the lip service that many times is paid to it. Ultimately its a top to bottom change, that has to be enforced.

    Dave

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    Some Chief's said more ICS and 'strategic' training (big picture) others said more Company Officer and task level training.

    What's the saying...as the goes the first hose, goes the fire?

    I have to admit I haven't caught up on all this thread yet (think I'll have to print it and bring it to the,um, library...)

    Both command & company level is needed, but most immediate & critical is the company. It's keeping up that integrity, making good tactical decisions early into the incident that are crucial to safety.

    Larger incidents do need effective command too, and IMHO "overhead" is as critically lacking in many departments as company manpower. Company officers should be involved with company operations to make sure they get their jobs done. Worcester at the time of the Warehouse fire only had 2 Chiefs on duty per shift, so only one would go to any given incident normally. One Chief is awful tough to get your fingers around an evolving, complex operation. At least their now up to three so they can committ 2 Chiefs to an incident much more easily.

    BUT...those commanders are still in the end depending on the company guys to carry out tactics efficiently, give useful reports back to command, and react in an appropriate way to the conditions as they change in front of the company's eyes.

    I don't care how good of a Fire Chief you are, if you have line troops who are hesistant, tenative, unsure of themselves, lacking the manpower to carry out a mission even when the "heart" is there, lacking the right equipment in the right place, you ain't gonna wave a magic walkie-talkie antenna in the air and make it all right. I'd argue it's easier for good companies to be successful with bad command, than good command be successful with bad companies.
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    I'd argue it's easier for good companies to be successful with bad command, than good command be successful with bad companies.
    Very insightful Dal. Makes alot of sense really.

    FTM-PTB

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    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
    I agree that the wildfires in the US have largely been ignored in this conversation so far. It is hard for many of the city slickers and metro folks to conprehend a full blown forest fire.

    The thing with wildfire is that pretty much every firefighter is in very good shape, you have to take the pack test every year, and with some agencies monthly. So heart attacks are less of an issue.

    But, miles traveled, aircraft, and major blow up is where the most LODDs come from.

    When a wildfire goes wrong, you usualy loose many a fire fighter.

    I agree...it is hard for municipal firefighters to relate to the problems facing wildland firefighters. However...it MUST be addressed and I'll take a stab at some analysis. Our firefighting brothers in the sky, who have saved my butt on numerous occasions...are being killed as they operate old, worn out, patched up....plain old OUTDATED aircraft that should be nothing less than retired. These aircraft need to be more closely scrutinized for air-worthiness...due to the stress levels encountered in the process of dropping retardant. But yet...somehow, they receive certification and wind up in service.

    Calendar Year 2003

    October 14. Pilot Richard Black, 57, of the Oregon Department of Forestry, Salem OR, was killed when the helicopter in which he was flying to scout water holes for future forest fire suppression activities crashed near Swisshome, OR.

    October 14. Forest Unit Supervisor David Mackey, 53, of the Oregon Department of Forestry, Salem OR, was killed when the helicopter in which he was flying to scout water holes for future forest fire suppression activities crashed near Swisshome, OR.

    October 3. Co-Pilot John Attardo, 51, of the Minden Air Corp, Minden, NV, was killed when his air tanker, a twin-engine P2-V, crashed due to a cause still to be determined near Redlands, CA.

    October 3. Pilot Carl Dolbeare, 54, of the Minden Air Corp, Minden, NV, was killed when his air tanker, a twin-engine P2-V, crashed due to a cause still to be determined near Redlands, CA.

    July 26. Firefighter/Helitack Crewmember, 32, was killed when for a cause still to be determined the helicopter crashed while taking firefighters from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to begin an initial attack on a fire in the Aspen Ridge area of Arizona.

    July 26. Pilot Jess Pearce, 50, of BIA Fire Management, Whiteriver, AZ, was killed when for a cause still to be determined the helicopter crashed while taking firefighters from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to begin an initial attack on a fire in the Aspen Ridge area of Arizona.

    July 25. Pilot Randall Harmon, 44, of Superior Helicopter LLC, Grants Pass, OR, was killed when his helicopter crashed while fighting the McGinnis Flats fire (northeastern Washington state).
    *****************************
    The above referenced LODD's may or may not be due to "tired" aircraft. Nevertheless, the majority of the USFS fleet of large airtankers remain grounded, due to problems/questions with the safety of the aircraft. SOLUTION? It's time for the federal government to investigate and provide funding for contract companies to update their fleet with state of the art, modern fire suppression aircraft. We can not continue to rely on tankers that are 40-50 years old, especially considering the ammount of stress encountered on airframes during the release of agent. Single Engine Air Tankers can not possibly replace the multi-engine aircraft on the firelines. The use of SEAT aircraft only adds to the amount of flight time, and stress cycles on the smaller aircraft. The government recognizes there is a problem...and it is time for them to act. Wildfire intensity and activity is on the increase in many western states...they need to act soon.
    ****************************

    August 24. Eight firefighters, Ricardo, Ruiz, 19, Mark Ransdell, 23, Leland Price, Jr., 27, Richard Moore, II, 21, Jesse James, 22, Jeff Hengel, 21, David Hammer, 38, and Paul Gibson, 25, of First Strike Environmental, Roseburg, OR, died on their way home from fighting a wildfire in South Fork, Idaho when their van collided with a tractor-trailer and exploded in flames, killing all inside and injuring the two people in the semi-trailer.

    Alcohol was found to be a contributing factor is these fatals. What can I say? Supervisory personnel need to act responsibly when accompanying wildland firefighters to and from wildfires. Alcohol consumption by drivers...is, of course, illegal and unacceptable...and can be FATAL.

    August 20. Inmate Firefighter Edward Buti, 54, of the Idaho Correctional Institution - Orofino, Orofino, ID, died from a cause to be determined as he was hiking to a wildfire (Slims fire complex near Elk City, ID) with an inmate firefighting crew.

    August 15. State Firefighter I Wayne Mickle, 48, of the Massachusetts Wildfire Crew, Bureau of Fire, Pittsfield, MA, died while in camp in his sleep from an apparent heart attack. Mickle was working with the Massachusetts Wildfire Crew battling forest fires near Missoula, Montana (Boles/Rattlesnake fire complex) and had reportedly complained in a phone call to his wife after coming off of the fire line that he was not feeling well and might seek medical attention.

    The U.S. Forest Service suggests that:

    People having regular checkups and screened ( The Pack Test ) with specially designed physical tests stand a much better chance enduring work on a fireline. Unfortunately, FF's are dying while participating in the Pack Test. Pre-screening by cardiologists would go a long way in diagnosing existing cardiac problems.

    Firefighters younger than 40 and who have a period of their work day dedicated to physical conditioning are usually best for fireline duty. There are exceptions to this and each firefighter should be individually tested.


    July 22. Firefighter Jeff Allen, 24, of the U.S. Forest Service, Salmon - Challis National Forest, Upper Columbia - Salmon Clearwater District BLM, Salmon ID, was killed when fast moving flames on the Cramer Fire in the Salmon - Challis National Forest, trapped him.

    July 22. Firefighter Shane Heath, 22, of the U.S. Forest Service, Salmon - Challis National Forest, Upper Columbia - Salmon Clearwater District BLM, Salmon ID, was killed when fast moving flames on the Cramer Fire in the Salmon - Challis National Forest, trapped him.

    In the investigation by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, inspectors said the Forest Service violated all 10 basic safety standards listed under the Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations.

    Those standards include such basic rules as "know what your fire is doing at all times," "maintain prompt communications with your forces" and "think clearly."

    OSHA found instructions to crew members were unclear and escape routes were not identified. Fire managers did not get the weather report the day the men were killed and did not know that stronger winds were expected for the afternoon.

    Regional Forester Jack Troyer said the OSHA investigation reached many of the same conclusions as an internal Forest Service review released in January. That investigation blamed fire managers for mistakes that led to the deaths.

    Weather plays such a critical role in fire behavior...that those on the fireline MUST get regular updates. Communications must be clear and concise. Divisional supervisors must post lookouts and have clearly defined safety zones and escape routes. These are the most basic rules of wildland firefighting...yet they were not adhered to.

    June 26. Assistant Chief/EMT/SAR Coordinator Ralph Dawdy, 47 of Animas Fire and Rescue, Animas, NM, and who also served as Chief of the Cotton City VFD, was operating a tanker on a forest road while responding to the Jenny Fire in Gila National Forest. Due to a cause still to be determined, the tanker left the roadway and rolled several times down a slope ejecting Dawdy who was pronounced dead at the scene of the accident.

    Seat belts...seat belts...seat belts.

    June 19. Firefighter/Fuels Management Supervisor Rick Lupe, 43, of the Fort Apache Agency, US Dept. of the Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs, Whiteriver, AZ, was seriously burned over 40% of his body when he was overcome by fire progress in a prescribed burn project. Lupe underwent multiple skin graft surgeries at the Maricopa Burn Center in Phoenix but died from the injuries a month later.

    Burnover during a presribed burn operation? Basic wildland fire rules need to be observed...solitary crewmembers must have radio communications with supervisors. Lupe, a fire manager for the White Mountain Apache Tribe, had gone to check on a hot spot fire when wind fanned the flames, trapping him. He tried to deploy his shelter but it blew away, so he fell to the ground to let the fire burn over him.

    Fire had greatly injured his hands and face. And the heat had damaged his lungs. But he managed to walk a half-mile for help. No communication device? Working alone? Accountability questions come to mind. Who was responsible for knowing the status and location of crewmembers? Again...basic firefighting orders were not adhered to.

    Overall....It seems to this firefighter that supervisory and communications problems play a role in both structural and wildland firefighting deaths. Vehicle accidents, to and from the scene, also cause many of the deaths. Seat belts, sensible, responsible driving habits MUST be part of your performance as a firefighter.

    The leading Causes of Wildland FF Deaths

    Burnovers

    Fires that overrun personnel and equipment killed 38 firefighters from 1990 to 1998. Burnovers always carry the risk of multiple fatalities when fire conditions are extreme.

    Heart Attacks

    There is a direct link between physical fitness and cardiac health. Twenty-eight deaths associated with wildland fire operations resulted from heart attacks between 1990 and 1998.

    Aircraft Accidents

    A combination of factors resulted in 30 deaths associated with aircraft from 1990 to 1998. A USFS analysis concludes:

    Many fire operations take place in steep mountainous terrain with limited room to maneuver aircraft if problems arise.
    Weather conditions are influenced by wildfire. These conditions are most always unfavorable to the performance of a flight.
    Helicopters are frequently required to hover for long periods of time and operate under 500 feet above ground. This stationary action reduces the likelihood that the aircraft can autorotate to a safe landing if engine problems occur.
    Rotary wing operations often do work at maximum safe weight levels. Helicopters with suspended buckets may become entangled in trees, snags, or powerlines.

    Vehicle Accidents

    Twenty five fatalities occurred from 1990 to 1998 in vehicles traveling to the fire, at the fire and while returning from the fire.

    Falling Snags

    Falling snags result in relatively few deaths. Only one has occurred since 1992. Yet the U.S. Forest Service suggests dead standing trees without leaves or needles in crowns "remain a serious concern".

    "The deterioration of forest health in the Western United States has resulted in enormous areas of forested land becoming susceptible to fire." Snags are associated with poor forest health and the combination of fire and snags aggravate an already dangerous situation.

    Snags are a direct danger that can injure firefighters by falling with little or no warning. They also influence fire behavior by throwing spot fires far in advance of the main fire. These spot fires can complicate the suppression effort and lead to firefighter entrapment.

    How do we apply the 16 recommendations in regards to wildland firefighting? They appear to be geared toward structural depts. Are wildland firefighting deaths any less tragic? Are they not our brothers? Are their losses any less significant? I'm sure you would quickly answer NO.

    1. Define and advocate the need for cultural change related to safety, leadership, management and personal responsibility;

    2. Enhance the personal and organizational accountability for health and safety;

    Follow established Standard Fire Orders

    3. Focus greater attention on the integration of risk management with incident management at all levels;

    4. Empower all firefighters to stop unsafe practices;

    5. Develop and implement national standards for training, qualifications and certification;

    Provide more detailed wildfire training for "rookie" crews. Perhaps S130/190 is unsufficient on large fires. Experience with fire behavior should be factored in to crew selection.

    6. Develop and implement national medical and physical fitness standards;

    Is the pack test adequate...or should other medical background checks be performed?

    7. Create a national research agenda and data collection system that relates to initiatives;

    8. Use available technology to produce higher levels of health and safety;

    9. Investigate all firefighter fatalities, injuries and near misses;

    10. Ensure grant programs support the use of safe practices and/or mandate safe practices as an eligibility requirement;

    11. Develop and champion national standards for emergency response policies and procedures;

    12. Develop and champion national protocols for response to violent incidents;

    13. Provide firefighters and their families with access to counseling and psychological support;

    14. Provide public education with more resources and champion it as a critical fire and life safety program;

    15. Strengthen advocacy for the enforcement of codes and installation of home fire sprinklers;

    16. Make safety a primary consideration in the design of apparatus and equipment.

    The USFS needs SAFE, efficient, modern aircraft. The old fleet is killing our pilots!
    Last edited by NJFFSA16; 07-12-2004 at 05:12 AM.
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    In among this I have seen dozens of different systems from dozens of People across the Country (and further with Kiwi & I adding our bit).

    Many of the suggested 'must have' systems may or may not be the Answer...loads of them we in the UK do use (Don't wanna keep harping on about us in the UK but for all of our faults we seem to have this LODD thing squared away). Some things we don't do like riding assignments...although we are heavy on pre-planning for different types of incident so I guess this is a simialr system, but nothing as detailed as the FDNY system... We use Booster lines on a high percentage of our jobs turning to 1.75 lines with a combi nozzle if the job goes beyond a few rooms (Notwithstanding our heavier construction here Guys)without frying our Crews...

    For me tradition is a very important tool in the Fire Service box of tricks...as someone said, all of our experience and SOP's come from previous jobs, lessons learned and so on...our history; what we didn't need was disregarded what we still use is tradition.

    Even if I took the Chief of Department's job in NYC today, I would not all of a sudden reduce the first attendance to two Pumpers, put a booster on every Engine, put ladders on the roof and roll up all of the hose into individual 75ft lengths and put half of the tool on the truck onto the engine....just becuase that is the way it is done in London doesn't mean I can turn a perfectly good tradition on it s head. By the same token as much as I'd love to throw some of our new 'dull' looking Mercedes Pumps on the garbage pile and but two shiny E-Ones in the bay at my Station you can bet the back half of them would look something like we are used to seeing.

    Tradition therefore is a major factor in the Fire Service, it's our heritage its what we are...its what makes me proud to say wherever I go 'I'm a London Fireman' and no doubt the same for all of you.

    What is clear on here is a real desire to change things...as I have said, many of the 16 points are used by us, they appear to work looking at our figures. I think the important thing is, is that every individual signs up to the 'Safe Person' concept. Take responsibility for your own well being.

    I have spent 17 years firefighting in a rough ghetto. I have seen most things and I am still here to tell the tale. I have carried out rescues and on more than one occassion me and a buddy have given that ' did we just do that' look to each other. Despite all of this, I managed to do everything fairly safely without burning my entire neighbourhood down or killing everyone ever involved.

    We get a lot of 'Persons reported' Fires but unless the job is already too far gone we manage to get them out alive. All of this is done without taking stupid personal risks... I am not going to tell anyone what to do, but aside from fitness & MVA related deaths look back at a few LODD's and ask yourself...

    What were they doing?
    What did they acheive from it?
    Was it worth there life?
    Did the Building burn down and everyone die becuase they didn't get their task finished?
    Would the same people make the same call today at the same job...probably not!!!

    If a life is saveable, then our guys shouldn't get into that much trouble trying to save it...if they are burning through their PPE what realisitc chance is their for a casualty.

    No Building at all...even the most important in town is worth more than the life of one of our own PERIOD!!! If you ask a widow and a kids whether their husband was more important that the factory unit he died trying to save what would her answer be??

    The key lesson here is; you on here and those around you will probably be safe. There is great experience & Intellegence on display, you like I will not get caught short and lose anyone...unless it is one of those freak unpredicatble events.

    The people who need to change are the ones who don't bother with resources such as this website or the articles in fire magazines, they polish the Engine, sit in the Bar, vote the good guy for Chief...Training night is quick check round the rig and then into the bar...When they wake up to the serious nature of this job then they can say 'I look after my People' bringing in Pizza doesn't give them that right.

    I have been to a Volunteer Fire Company with a 25 yr FDNY Battalion Chief. he is a well known and respected Officer in the City and a volunteer Fireman in this town. He is not part of the in crowd, he is a quiet considered man whose opinion is ignored in the Volly House becuase he is 'no fun' When I visited with him he was considering quitting, he felt he could no longer be part of something that run against everything he had seen in his time in FDNY.

    This Ladies & Gentlemen is where I believe the problem lies!!!
    Last edited by SteveDude; 07-12-2004 at 03:56 AM.
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    Originally posted by SteveDude
    The key lesson here is; you on here and those around you will probably be safe. There is great experience & Intellegence on display, you like I will not get caught short and lose anyone...unless it is one of those freak unpredicatble events.

    The people who need to change are the ones who don't bother with resources such as this website or the articles in fire magazines, they polish the Engine, sit in the Bar, vote the good guy for Chief...Training night is quick check round the rig and then into the bar...When they wake up to the serious nature of this job then they can say 'I look after my People' bringing in Pizza doesn't give them that right.
    Well put Steve.

    Originally posted by Spotted Dog
    I'd argue it's easier for good companies to be successful with bad command, than good command be successful with bad companies.
    I agree here 100% Dal. How many times do we succeed in spite of command? How many Companies succeed in spite of their Officer?

    I do not think there is one answer or system as far as operations go. We have covered enough of that to see that everyone and everywhere is different. As Steve pointed out, a sudden conversin from current FDNY tactics and equipment to London tactics and equipment would not accomplish much. (The vendors would be happy)

    The attitude change, or culture, can be everywhere. If every new Firefighter has it beaten into his head that safety is the NUMBER 1 PRIORITYthen there will be a change. Now, like I said before, we have to mean that. It can't just be the preaching of safety to satisfy the safety gurus, and then training that shows otherwise.

    The technology angle scares me a bit. Sure there are things that can improve how we do our jobs. There is no end all be all "Firefighter Won't die" gizmo. Its not going to happen. I think we tend to throw the baby out with the bath water too manys times when it comes to technology. An example; how many Departments still re-enforce good search techniques with the use of a Thermal Imaging Camera? How many have witness Firefighters get "lost" during training because the camera battery "died". Until they send robots in to do our job, you will still need to think and act based on your observations and knowledge, not what the computer tells you.

    And while we are at it, want a donut?

    This and traffic accidents still hold the most amount of LODD.

    Nearly two-thirds (59 percent) of the passenger vehicle occupants killed in traffic crashes in 2001 were unrestrained. (NHTSA, 2003)

    Not saying that seltbelt use would have guaranteed survival, but I bet it would cut it down some.

    From 1975 through 2002, it is estimated that safety belts saved 164,753 lives, including 14,164 lives saved in 2002. If all passenger vehicle occupants over age 4 wore safety belts, 21,317 lives (that is, an additional 7,153) could have been saved in 2002. (NHTSA, 2003)

    Those are some wicked numbers aren't they.

    Safe driving practices. Elimination of the "one-eyed" syndrome when driving. Seat belts. These are a few changes that will work to reduce LODD.

    Dave
    Last edited by hfd66truck; 07-12-2004 at 06:00 AM.

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    Originally posted by SteveDude

    ....The people who need to change are the ones who don't bother with resources such as this website or the articles in fire magazines, they polish the Engine, sit in the Bar, vote the good guy for Chief...Training night is quick check round the rig and then into the bar...When they wake up to the serious nature of this job then they can say 'I look after my People' bringing in Pizza doesn't give them that right.
    This Ladies & Gentlemen is where I believe the problem lies!!!
    Boy, have you hit the nail on the head. The "good 'ol boys attitude and outlook.

    I ran for captain on a volly department once. At that point I had obtained NJ's FF3 certification...had attended courses in five states, including our National Fire Academy in Emmitsburg. Everything from Tactics & Strategy, Structural Firefighting, Heavy Rescue, Crash Fire Rescue classes at JFK and Aberdeen, MD.....blah, blah, blah.

    My opponent played cards with the boys...after our meetings. He had never completed FF1. He wasn't SCBA qualified and wouldn't know the difference between backdraft and Coors Draught.

    Care to guess who was elected?
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    When it comes to safety issues, firefighters need to be: (Choose one)

    A. PROACTIVE
    Acting in advance to deal with an expected difficulty; anticipatory

    B. REACTIVE
    Tending to be responsive or to react to a stimulus.
    Characterized by reaction.


    C. INACTIVE
    Not active or tending to be active.

    Not functioning or operating; out of use: inactive machinery.
    Not being in continuous use or operation: an inactive brokerage account.

    Retired from duty or service.



    About 88,730 of you chose C INACTIVE
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  25. #125
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,765

    Default

    Some good points and some not so good points. A lot about tradition has been said and the boat has been missed by some.
    In one post it was mentioned that the chief on the scene not wearing gear was a bad thing. Why? Isn't he the IC? isn't his job to direct fire crews from the outside and establish IMS. How do turnouts help with this? He shouldn't be going into the building even on an investigation. If the building is still full of people and nothing is going on what are the turnouts doing?
    An understanding of why is needed by the fireservice. How many times do you see firefighters on the scene of a tech rescue wearing firefighting gear? It is because that is what firefighters wear! In some cases that very gear is the start of the problem. Teach guys to know what is the right thing to do and WHY.
    I've heard in discussions with officers that you have to wear your turnouts on CO calls because CO burns. Well if the CO level is high enough to burn then the building is probably on fire.
    That is just one example of how ignorant we can be. Their are hundreds of regulations and rules to keep us safe lets not make more, lets learn about what is out there and use our heads.
    More later, stay safe.

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