1. #1
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    Default Sometimes you just wanna rip that d@#% siren out of the truck

    We recently have had a wave of apparatus operators trying to be "super firefighters" and race to any call red lights and siren, Well In my Rescue Company I solved the problem by taking a few of my drivers for "a ride" in my POV to explain how things should be done, Has anyone else had to solve this problem if so how did you solve it?
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    Default Umm..

    In a nut shell, no one should be driving without an educational
    course.

    It is a hell of a lot more than just getting behind a wheel
    and going balls out. Driving fire apparatus should be an earned privilege, not just something handed over.

    Maybe find some sort of training video from your state or
    county? I know of a great but old video from Phoenix, AZ.
    Maybe call them for it.

    -Bou

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    Red face

    did you see that video last week of the FDNY Engine that "blew" the intersection ? OH MY !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    Thumbs up Try This......

    An Excellent Driver Training Course is available thru the National Fire Academy, I think you have to write or email a request for it to FEMA's publications office. Also try www.MFRI.org and contact VFIS Insurance as well.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Default Re: Sometimes you just wanna rip that d@#% siren out of the truck

    Originally posted by RescuHoppy7
    Has anyone else had to solve this problem if so how did you solve it?
    I would simply take all the drivers, sit them down in your office and lay out the facts.

    Calendar year 2003

    111 Total LODD

    22 FFs died responding to or returning from alarms.

    One fifth of ALL LODDs for last year.

    Express your desire that they NOT become part of those sad statistics.!
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    We run all calls, cat in a tree or working structure fire, the same. Code 3, Lights and siren. Department SOP. The only time the truck roll s without lights and siren is when it's coming back to the station from a run or it's being taken out while the FFs do chores such as hydrant testing.

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    SOG for my company...In a sense...We don't need to be winding up that Q for 2 freakin minutes.

    If we are responding in at Emergency Speed, All warning lights are on and the person riding passenger/officer seat stands by with the siren pedals. When comming up to any intersection (whether it be a stop sign control or light control) you wind the Q a bit and give some air horn. If the light is RED, you give a good blast of the Q siren and air horns (and if it's needed, fire up the electric siren) Also wind up the Q a good bit when in traffic, like during rush hour.

    We don't make noise when it's not needed, if there aren't any cars in your way, you don't need noise.
    Firefighter, Volunteering since Oct 2001

    CCFA 05-04, best overall class for 2005
    "GOOD GAME!"

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    Check your state laws. In some states if your lights are on you must be giving audible signal. Always keep in mind that the advice you get here while well intended and sensible may be counter to the law in your state. EVOC should be a requirement.

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    Our state is one that requires an audible device in addition to lights in order to be considered an emergency vehicle. That being said, there are some calls (tree down ect) that I will respond to routinely. I will also stay off of the siren in the middle of the night unless I'm approaching a red light or other intersection. You have to be extra careful in doing this that someone doesn't pull out of a driveway in front of you.

    I have also gotten on a young person in the officers seat that really wanted to lay on the Q. I don't feel the need to wake everybody up unnecessarily.

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    Yes, our state is one of those. Keep in mind that if you nail someone while you are being considerate and sensible that you are toast. Anyone with a decent lawyer will take you to the cleaners. Either run emergency or like the tree down, run non-emergency. Modified emergency doesn't exist under Maryland law.
    Last edited by oldman21220; 07-23-2004 at 01:47 PM.

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    sorry ladies and gentlemen, I couldn't disagree more with not running sirens. If you are responding with lights, sirens should be going also, the reason I say this is if you are running hot to a call, and someone pulls out in front of you and there's an accident guess who the lawyer's going to nail to the wall?? YOU!! That is just a lawsuit waiting to happen. I'm not saying it's right, just is. Hell, people don't get out of the way when you do run lights/sirens/air horns/fingers/cussing/throwing stuff, well you get the idea.
    Just my .02

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    Thumbs down

    Originally posted by cellblock
    We run all calls, cat in a tree or working structure fire, the same. Code 3, Lights and siren. Department SOP. The only time the truck roll s without lights and siren is when it's coming back to the station from a run or it's being taken out while the FFs do chores such as hydrant testing.
    That is dumb.

    Do you disregard stop signs & lights for cat rescues? If you broadsided me in an intersection while "busting" it for an animal rescue call, I could eat you up in court.

    Good luck--you'll need it.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
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    I read an article a couple of years ago
    where a major Dept. (I want to say it was
    Philly Pa. not sure) was running what they
    called silent responses (no lights or
    siren) and it was working out well.
    your thoughts ?

    gfpdwh

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    I can't see how that would work very well on true emergencies in an urban setting. Now out in the rural areas, we could go with or without them, at least on the big 4-lane where our station is. Other roads, it does help, especially if you're stuck behind a goat cart.

    We do not run code 3 on brush fires unless we have an indication that structures are in imminent danger. If it's unclear, we go ahead and run code 3, but if it's a return call to assist forestry or something, we run it cool.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    --General James Mattis, USMC


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    gfpdwh, i remember something about some bigger depts doing that also, can't remember which ones though. and it has been discussed in ND about running without lights and sirens but if you run without you must obey ALL traffic laws to the t. in our small town we run without sirens 1am to 6am. some of the bigger cities do this also, but when we run without sirens the pedal isn't to the floor. when running on open highway with no one ahead of us we shut down the sirens. all of our major intersections on the highways we activate sirens 200 feet before the intersection. but the FAO's should be in compliance with there state laws.

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    Originally posted by cellblock
    We run all calls, cat in a tree or working structure fire, the same. Code 3, Lights and siren. Department SOP. The only time the truck roll s without lights and siren is when it's coming back to the station from a run or it's being taken out while the FFs do chores such as hydrant testing.
    Oh My...I think your department needs to wake up and smell the lawyers (err coffee). Your just begging for a lawsuit.

    I think with a little research, you will find that the growing trend is to reduce the number of "Code 3" (lights/siren) responses.

    Dave

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    Default

    Originally posted by gfpdwh
    I read an article a couple of years ago
    where a major Dept. (I want to say it was
    Philly Pa. not sure) was running what they
    called silent responses (no lights or
    siren) and it was working out well.
    your thoughts ?

    gfpdwh
    Our county has been doing that for about 10 years now and we have had a drastic reduction in apparatus accidents. I would say that about 40% of our calls are non-emergency (no lights/siren). This goes for fire as well as EMS calls.

    For fire calls, things like elevator rescues, animal rescues, other public assist calls, odor invests (outside) water leaks, just to name a few. On automatic fire alarms, first due engine responds emergency, all the rest of the assignment non-emergency.

    For EMS, slip & fall with no priority complaint, non-recent injury, help grandma back in to bed and many others are all non-emergency.

    We are an urban area, and it works well for us.

    Dave

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    we roll everything lights and sirens. dept SOP. reason being you never know what you might be going to. dispatch send EMS to a "emergency transport." that is all the dispatch information. lights and sirens yes or no? turns out it was severe resp distress. dispatched to a doctors office for chest pain. lights and sirens? they are already in the care of an MD. the doctor might be a proctologist, but that's besides the point. grandma fell out of bed. light and sirens? probably not. oh, by the way, when you arrive, you find she's not breathing (and yes, I had this as my first cardiac arrest). not fun.

    from the fire side, we don't respond to cat in the tree. AFAs call for a full structural response (3 engines, 1 truck/1 rescue if no driver for the truck). all L&S. first arriving FD unit (not PD) can slow everyone down or return everyone.

    do i agree with all of our protocols? no. do I have the experience to question the higher ups? no. they make a decision, I follow it. maybe our dispatchers are just worse than the rest of the world, but in my town, you never konw what you are getting into. FD is dispatched to a rollover, as is PD. EMS is never sent, until the FD gets on scene and requests them directly.

    as for over zelous drivers, i would suggest the following:
    1) document everything. dates and times, what he/she was doing, nature of dispatch. it's CYA for your dept.
    2) remind them to slow down. remind them it's not their emergency.
    3) EVOC should be mandatory
    4) explain to them that L&S responses improve response times by under 2 minutes. there are studies done that have proved this!!
    5) remind them that even though you are going L&S, you must still drive with due regard. this mean if you get into an accident, it's your fault
    6) remind them to think while driving. your responding to an MVA with a CC of neck pain. is that 2 minutes really going to be life or death. or your responding to a brush fire / AFA. is there anyone's life threatened? even a working car fire, is the two minutes going to matter? (and yes, i know the car fire can be argued, but remember, most of the time the car is a total loss). what about you flying down the road balls to the walls. you are endangering yourself, your crew, and the other drivers. for a major EMS call (Resp Arrest, Cardiac arrest, Car Vs. Ped), where seconds do count, ok, then it might be justifiable. for a car/structure fire with reported people trapped inside? ok then you can justify endangering others moreso than for the AFA or the minor brush fire.
    7) remind the driver that they are no good to the emergency they are responding to if they get into an accident. after all, they go OOS, another engine/ladder needs to be called to fill their spot, and resources need to be dispatched to the accident they just caused.
    8) when all else fails, suspend them from driving. it can become more of a liability to have them driving.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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