1. #1
    Forum Member
    stm4710's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,713

    Exclamation Well someones got to get this debate started.

    9/11 Panel Says 'We Are Not Safe'
    By TERENCE HUNT, AP


    WASHINGTON (July 22) - America's leaders failed to grasp the gravity of terrorist threats before the devastating attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, taking actions so feeble they never even slowed the al-Qaida plotters, a national commission said in a blistering report Thursday.

    The panel warned "we are not safe'' yet - and called for major intelligence changes. Its work is sure to reverberate across the presidential campaign.

    In an exhaustive investigation of the deadliest attack in U.S. history, the commission noted numerous government missteps but did not cast blame on any official and stopped short of saying the hijackings could have been prevented.

    It also did not blame President Bush and former President Clinton but did say they failed to make anti-terrorism a top priority.

    "We do not believe they fully understood just how many people al-Qaida might kill and how soon it might do it,'' the 10-member, bipartisan panel said in its unanimous findings.

    "We also believe that they did not take it as seriously as it should be taken. It was not their top priority,'' Thomas Kean, the Republican chairman, said at a news conference with members of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States. "We do believe both presidents could have done more in this area.''

    The final report, issued as a book, largely mirrored the preliminary reports released during the commission's 20 months of investigation.Still, coming less than four months before the election, the politically sensitive report could be trouble for Bush, who has made his handling of terrorism the centerpiece of his campaign and has insisted he fully understood the threat.

    The report comes on the heels of House and Senate reports that documented U.S. intelligence failures and undermined the major claims cited by Bush to justify the war against Iraq. The commission report repeated its earlier preliminary findings that al-Qaida did not have a close relationship with Saddam Hussein's regime.

    Bush welcomed the commission's recommendations as "very constructive'' although his administration has reacted coolly toward a key proposal to establish a Cabinet-level national intelligence director. He said that "where government needs to act, we will.''

    Bush had opposed the creation of the commission, resisted the release of some documents and fought against letting national security adviser Condoleezza Rice testify publicly under oath.

    Democrat John Kerry, campaigning for president in Detroit, said disputes within the Bush administration had delayed the commission's work and improvements to the nation's security.


    Reactions to the Report




    AFP/Getty

    "[The commission has] done a really good job of learning about our country, learning what went wrong prior to Sept. 11 and making very solid, sound recommendations about how to move forward."
    -- George Bush | Video: Bush Receives Report



    AFP/Getty

    "To get unanimity [the panel] didn't talk about a number of things... The controversial things, the controversial criticisms of the Clinton administration, as well as the Bush administration, just aren't there."
    -- Richard Clarke, former counterterrorism chief

    “Read this report. It shows that we are at war with an implacable and very dangerous enemy. It is an extremely important contribution to our understanding of what happened in the days leading up to the tragic attacks of Sept. 11, 2001." -- Rep. Dennis Hastert, speaker of the House


    AFP/Getty

    "I don't think you need [an intelligence] czar. We already had one level of bureaucracy that we don't need." -- Tom Ridge, homeland security chief, on the panel's recommendation for a national intelligence director


    "I assured [the commission chairs] that where the government needs to act, we will." -- George Bush


    Getty

    "This report carries a simple message about our current state of security for every American who remembers that dark September day: We can do better. We must do better. And it’s time to act -- now." -- John Kerry


    Sources: AP, www.speaker.gov, www.johnkerry.com



    "Nearly three years after terrorists have attacked our shores and murdered our loved ones, this report carries a very simple message for all of America about the security of all Americans - we can do better,'' Kerry said.

    House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., expressed doubt that lawmakers would have time to consider sweeping reforms this year. But efforts began in both the House and Senate to build bipartisan coalitions of support for the recommendations. Relatives of Sept. 11 victims said they would lobby, too.

    "The families know that this is an election year. We're going to hold these people's feet to the fire,'' said Debra Burlingame, whose brother Charles was the pilot of the hijacked plane that struck the Pentagon.

    Twenty months in the making, the report portrayed the Sept. 11 terrorists as sure-footed and determined while the nation they were preparing to strike was unprepared, sluggish and uncomprehending of the imminent danger.

    "Across the government, there were failures of imagination, policy, capabilities and management,'' the commission concluded in a 567-page indictment that documented a series of missed opportunities by the CIA and FBI to uncover the Sept. 11 plot. Nearly 3,000 people were killed when 19 Arab hijackers flew airliners into New York's Twin Towers, the Pentagon and the Pennsylvania countryside.

    Three years later, Americans are safer because of improvements in homeland security and the war against terrorists, the report said. "But we are not safe.''

    "Every expert with whom we spoke told us an attack of even greater magnitude is now possible and even probable,'' Kean said. "We do not have the luxury of time.''

    The commission's report said that as the Sept. 11 plot advanced, the U.S. government was bogged down in an outdated Cold War mentality, lacking imagination to deal with new threats or recognize the looming danger.


    Slipping Through Security
    What we can say with confidence is that none of the measures adopted by the U.S. government from 1998 to 2001 disturbed or even delayed the progress of the al-Qaida plot,'' the report said.

    Commission co-chairman Lee Hamilton, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana, said a key finding was that no one in government was in charge of insuring that intelligence agencies pool resources, avoid duplication and plan jointly to keep America safe. To unify efforts, the commission recommended creating a national counterterrorism center.

    It also recommended a Cabinet-level national intelligence director to centralize efforts now spread over 15 agencies in six Cabinet departments plus the CIA.

    The report said Congress, like the executive branch, responded slowly to the rise of global terrorism.

    But the panel found that the "most important failure'' leading to the Sept. 11 attacks "was one of imagination. We do not believe leaders understood the gravity of the threat.''

    The commission identified nine "specific points of vulnerability'' in the Sept. 11 plot that might have led to its disruption had the government been better organized and more watchful. Despite these opportunities, "we cannot know whether any single step or series of steps would have defeated'' the hijackers, the report concluded.

    Some members have speculated the attacks could have been stopped. "We do not know,'' Kean said. "We think it's possible. But we have not drawn that absolute conclusion because we don't believe that absolute conclusion is justified by the facts.''

    The report detailed contacts between Iraq and al-Qaida, noting that Osama bin Laden began exploring a possible alliance in the early 1990s. The report said that an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan in July 1998 to meet with the ruling Taliban and with bin Laden.

    While there were "friendly contacts'' between Iraq and al-Qaida and a common hatred of the United States, none of these contacts "ever developed into a collaborative relationship'' and Iraq was not involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, the report said.

    That question has been the subject of intense political debate, as critics accuse Bush of exaggerating the contacts between al-Qaida and Iraq to justify the war.

    The panel said it did not find evidence that Iran, Iraq's neighbor, had advance knowledge of bin Laden's plans, or that Saudi Arabia's government had a role in the terror conspiracy, which involved 15 Saudi hijackers.


    07/22/04 17:37 EDT




    So what do you think about the report and our current readyness? WHat should we do to help our security but maintain freedom?
    Last edited by stm4710; 07-23-2004 at 12:59 AM.
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  2. #2
    makes good girls go bad
    BLSboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    On the beach, Fla/OCNJ
    Posts
    2,859

    Default

    First the Left-Wing propanganda film, Farenheit 9/11, now this report, really kinda make you think, is there a Left-Wing Conspiricy?


    BTW I work in a movie theatre, and I have seen Far. 9-11, and many pple have come out, asking if they can go to another movie, because they are disgusted with that one
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
    Member, IACOJ.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-DTRT-RFB-KTF
    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    stm4710's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,713

    Default

    First the Left-Wing propanganda film, Farenheit 9/11, now this report, really kinda make you think, is there a Left-Wing Conspiricy?
    Kinda odd that a "Left wing Conspiricy" would be a bipartisan commission.....
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  4. #4
    makes good girls go bad
    BLSboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    On the beach, Fla/OCNJ
    Posts
    2,859

    Default

    I was speaking merely of the timing of the release of the report
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
    Member, IACOJ.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-DTRT-RFB-KTF
    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    355

    Default

    I was always troubled by the fact that so many people on the commission from both sides, should have been before the commission due to positions that they had held.

  6. #6
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,740

    Talking No Left Wing Conspiracy..............

    There can't be a left wing conspiracy, There aren't enough Leftwingers smart enough to conspire.......... The biggest thing that I've found is all the "There were clues that should have raised alarm" BS. Sure there were signs that someone was up to no good, but I don't think much more could have been done because of interference from groups like the ACLU. If we're going to get serious about Terrorism, we'll have to scuttle some of the things that hamper investigations in America, Things that our forefathers wanted to have in place to protect the citizenry from unreasonable Government intrusion. Times Change, and I think Ben Franklin, Geo. Washington, Thomas Jefferson, et al, would approve of redefining liberty to protect ourselves.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    From the executive summary:

    GENERAL FINDINGS
    Since the plotters were flexible and resourceful, we cannot know whether any single step or series of steps would have defeated them.What we can say with confidence is that none of the measures adopted by the U.S. government from 1998 to 2001 disturbed or even delayed the progress of the al Qaeda plot.Across the government, there were failures of imagination, policy, capabilities, and management.
    "Failures of imagination" These three words are more telling than anything else the commission found. Nobody in this country, from the guy sleeping in the street to the guy working in the oval office imagined an attack taking the form that it did. If you can't imagine the form of the offense, you cannot prepare an adequate defense.

    I submit this analogy:
    The first forward pass in football history was thrown in December 1905 in a game featuring Washburn University and Fairmont College.
    I'd say there was no defensive secondary, cornerbacks or free safeties at that time. However, todays football defenses are now structured to protect against the pass.

    Too simple an analogy? Maybe.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ullrichk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Deleted by the forum gremlins
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    Originally posted by E229Lt


    Too simple an analogy? Maybe.
    Nope. I think you got it dead on. The only difference is that the stakes are higher (by orders of magnitude).
    ullrichk
    a.k.a.
    perfesser

    a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ChiefReason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Illinois-where pertnear is close enough!
    Posts
    5,636

    Default So...You've Read the Report?

    Jesse:
    Stop reading the comments in the newspapers and start reading the report.
    All's you're doing is reacting to statements made about the report.
    Have you read the report? Have you even read the executive summary?
    Do you want to discuss the report or just comments that have been made about the report?
    Because my thoughts here are: instead of borrowing your outrage from the headlines, read the damned report and draw your own conclusions.
    It's OK to think for yourself. Really; you don't have to go mainstream all of the time.
    But I can understand with your schedule that you don't have time to curl up with 585 pages of report.
    It would probably cut significantly into your on line time!
    You want to discuss the report, then read the report.
    CR
    Visit www.iacoj.com
    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    stm4710's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,713

    Default

    Cr I never reacted,just posed questions.

    And me thinks Motorola has some explaining to do......
    821) Effective decisionmaking in New York was hampered by problems in com-mand and control and in internal communications. Within the Fire Department of New York, this was true for several reasons: the magnitude of the incident was unforeseen; commanders had difficulty communicating with their units; more units were actually dispatched than were ordered by the chiefs; some units self-dispatched; and once units arrived at the World Trade Center, they were neither comprehensively accounted for nor coordinated.

    The Port Authority's response was hampered by the lack both of standard operating procedures and of radios capable of enabling multiple commands to respond to an incident in unified fashion. The New York Police Department, because of its history of mobilizing thousands of officers for major events requiring crowd control, had a technical radio capability and protocols more easily adapted to an incident of the magnitude of 9/ 11.
    Last edited by stm4710; 07-26-2004 at 12:32 AM.
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  11. #11
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,740

    Thumbs down Here We Go Again.......................

    That Damned Interoperatibility rears it's ugly head again. I, for one, am tired of hearing it. I want a radio to talk to FIREFIGHTERS! let the Cops talk to themselves, among themselves, about themselves, I don't care. What I do care about is my troops. If they can't talk to each other, or to me, or the dispatcher, what the heck good are the radios?? Let's work on communicating with ourselves first, we can add the others later.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default Re: Here We Go Again.......................

    Originally posted by hwoods
    That Damned Interoperatibility rears it's ugly head again. I, for one, am tired of hearing it. I want a radio to talk to FIREFIGHTERS! let the Cops talk to themselves, among themselves, about themselves, I don't care. What I do care about is my troops. If they can't talk to each other, or to me, or the dispatcher, what the heck good are the radios?? Let's work on communicating with ourselves first, we can add the others later.
    Ditto. That's why we have things like unified command.......

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    That's why we have things like unified command
    or at least are supposed to....
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #14
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    136

    Default

    So the 9/11 Commission says we're not safe. How am I going to be able to sleep tonight? I don't know about you all, but I feel pretty damn safe in America. And the main reason for that is because George W. Bush is our president. When you go to vote in November, keep in mind we have not been attacked since 9/11 due to this strong, confident administration that works hard every day to keep us safe.
    Al-Qaida promised more attacks in America at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan, yet there has been none. Since 9/11 we have seen 1,050 days, 20 World Series games played, 3 Super Bowls, numerous Nascar races, NFL games, College Bowls, and we hosted the Summer Olympics. All without one incident. Even though they badly want to strike again, I feel safe. So I can continue feeling safe, please vote BUSH/CHENEY!

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    I'm curious, what Summer Olympics did we host that I missed?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Now in Victoria, BC. I'm from beautiful Jasper Alberta in the heart of the Can. Rockies - will always be an Albertan at heart!
    Posts
    6,329

    Default

    Atlanta 1996
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    codeblue81's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Well right here....Duh!!
    Posts
    390

    Default

    Ok 2123, I've been wondering. Isn't Al Qaida an unconventional warfare group? The last that I knew such militants did try to hit areas of high security. No matter what you think of what happened on 9-11 you have to admit that they did have it down pat. Like the report said, the used their imagination to attack the United States. And i honestly think that Al Qaida is smarter than attack an area at a time of high security.

    And sure we have all had this extended period of time without a terrorist attack but think for a minute, it took 8 years between the 93 and 01 WTC attacks.

    code_blue81
    Jeremy Culver
    IACOJ Bureau of EMS

    These views are my own and do not represent the views or opinions of anyambulance service that I am affiliated with.

    Help our fellow firefighters.
    www.helpingourown.com
    "Firefighters Helping Firefighters"

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber
    E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    When you go to vote in November, keep in mind we have not been attacked since 9/11 due to this strong, confident administration that works hard every day to keep us safe.
    Spain emboldened the terrorists by allowing an attack to alter their elections. I, for one, will sleep with one eye opened for the next three months.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register