1. #1
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    Default IL-76 waterbomber news clip from Calgary here

    EDIT: THIS LINK NO LONGER PRODUCES THE
    NEWSCAST CONTAINING THE IL-76 WATERBOMBER
    PIECE.

    2/3 of this segment goes national next week in Canada.

    Includes stunning statements from two
    senior woman bureaucrats from USFS and BCFS.

    Couple of points:

    BCFS says the IL-76 is terrain-limited but the
    worst fire in BC shown on camera is ideally suited
    to the Il-76. Odd.

    BCFS says the aircraft is landing strip length-limited.

    Should she not have said takeoff requirement-limited?

    Watch the Il-76 land here: http://www.desastres.org/ger/il76drop2.wmv

    ummmmm....I think she got her lines wrong.
    Last edited by budthespud; 07-31-2004 at 01:33 AM.

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    Pretty poor clip of a landing. It shows it touching down and then the clip ends. How long of a runway does it need for takeoff and landing?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Aircraft takeoff and landing requirements
    vary with height above sea level, temperature,
    wind and weight. Further, braking is applied to
    20 wheels at the same time.

    Please refer to our website, www.waterbomber.com,
    or to any one of a number of websites covering
    the attributes of the Il-76 for conservatively-
    stated numbers.

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    Bones,

    At least one question has been answered:

    Originally posted by budthespud Please refer to our website, www.waterbomber.com,
    Here are some published IL-76 numbers:

    Load-Carrying Capacity: 47 tons
    Maximum Takeoff Weight: 170 tons
    Takeoff run on concrete runway: 1,600 meters
    Landing roll on concrete runway: 780 to 1,000 meters

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    If Tony Kern says he wants ten (10) mega-tankers:
    http://www.fire.uni-freiburg.de/medi...0030905_us.htm

    ...then it's ten (10) mega-tankers he shall have.

    The rest is academic after you get past the
    size matters debate, which he seems to
    have.

    You wonder, what page is everybody on here?

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    "You'd never see a fleet of 20 of these things. But you might see a fleet of 10."
    If that's the quote you are referring to, you have definitely put a salesman's spin on it.

    Are 1600 meter runways common out there?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Check the CBC piece again.

    The BCFS person had to deny
    that she was a bureaucrat.

    The word bureaucrat came
    up quite a few times in that
    news telecast, which goes
    national next week.

    I think if you checked, the
    credibility of the USFS and
    and BCFS against the chairman
    of the AFAC, who says the AFAC
    considers the IL-76 a very,
    very good firefighting aircraft,

    Len Foster would have your
    bureaucrats dead to rights as
    Len has 4.5 more days' testing
    on the Il-76 waterbomber than the
    USFS does, not counting the NATO demo.

    We, meanwhile, are dealing with the
    military.

    How about their credibility? Good?

    In reality, since the USFS has no good, solid
    runway data on the Il-76 other than their half
    day test, and hasn't asked, they'll perhaps
    need to take their chances with the 747.

    Are you a bureaucrat, Bonesy? You seem
    to like playing fun with runways.
    Last edited by budthespud; 07-30-2004 at 05:19 PM.

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    And we have 1 maybe 2 airports in Wyoming that will handle it, but not likely that an IL76 or a 747 will be operating from Wyo... They will have to refill elsewhere (Colorado, Utah, Etc)
    Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
    "Everybody Goes Home"

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    Hey. If Tony Kern hasn't got a problem
    with bases for his theoretical mega-tankers
    (10), then neither do I.

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    Are you a bureaucrat, Bonesy? You seem to like playing fun with runways.
    Nope, just trying to understand what you are saying.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bud
    If "Bonesy" sounds like a bureaucrat, I'd have to add you sound like a salesman.
    While I believe each tool has a use, (however, I'm not a big fan of using a hammer to drive a screw...), I'm not so sure wishing is going to eliminate practical problems.
    I'm not convinced we use T-1 airtankers very well to begin with, (not to mention these nw, uh...what are they, type 0?), so i'm sure we will be able to drown firefighters and screw these behemoths into mountains just fine.
    Then listen to the hue and cry!

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    Thumbs up

    Welcome back to the lower 48 CBP.....you did one helluva job!

    Ed
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

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    Originally posted by cbp333
    [B]Bud.....

    (a) you sound like a salesman.

    (b) I'm not convinced we use T-1 airtankers very well

    (c) drown firefighters

    (d) and screw these behemoths into mountains just fine.
    On (a) Don't listen to me. Listen to Len Foster, of AFAC, who
    has 4.5 more days' testing the Il-76 than the recalcitrant
    US forest service. And hey. If you don't LIKE salesmen, go socialist
    or communist. THEY don't like salesmen either.

    (b) there are only 8 of them left. Best you use them wisely.

    (c) baloney; next thing you know, you will be saying the
    airplane will crush kittens and puppies.

    (d) thanks for your best wishes for aviators (NOT). Is
    this the same sort of thing armies wished on aviators when
    Billy Mitchell began being successful?

    Speaking of screws. Have you got one or two loose or is
    this your way of showing the folks how clever and humorous
    you are?
    Last edited by budthespud; 08-03-2004 at 09:45 AM.

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    Bud,
    By the tone of your response, it already seems that this may be a waste of time, but let me set a thing or two straight.
    First, I have 24 years as a full-time wildland firefighter under my belt. I am rated as a type 1 IC in my state, I am also one of our state safety officers. I have been the contract aviation coordinator here for over 6 years. Prior to that I spent 18 years as the lead fire control officer in an administrative unit that is covered in one of the most volatile fuel types in the country. The largest fire I had to deal with went 20,000 acres. Thousand acre fires are common.
    I have been fighting fire in the west since 1986. I now respond as an IC T-3, a Division Supe, or as a type 2 information officer.
    I've even been a volunteer in my company for 15 years.
    Am I proud? Sure. Am I blowing my own horn? No, the point is that I might just know a thing or two, okay?
    And a couple of things I know? I find it hard to believe that if aircraft that were designed to deliver ordinance and be shot at are being stressed to a point beyond their design limits while carrying 3000 gallons of retardant, then a cargo plane carrying 20,000 is not likely to do better. Is it possible? Maybe, but I'd surely want to be convinced a lot better than a few days of testing will make me.
    Don't get me wrong, there are probably uses for supertanker aircraft like these in brush fuel types like the sage of WA and OR, the black spruce of AK, and heck, even the pine barrens of NJ, but I am not presently convinced that a turbojet engined transport will be able to effectively operate safely over rough terrain. I look forward to being proven wrong, but it will take more than I've seen so far.
    The Feds have grounded a fleet of aircraft that have done the job for decades. (Don't get me wrong here, either, there's good reasons for doing so.) I am not surprised they are not falling all over themselves accepting a new one. Hey, Canadair is still undergoing a tedious process to get the CL-215 and 415 accepted for use, and those craft are type-built for the purpose of fighting wildland fire.
    As to safety issues, we have injured firefighters who've been subjected to 3000 gal. salvo drops. The coverage area is nothing like the potential of one of these supertankers. Probably the only safe way to use them will be in areas that have no ground forces in them. Pressurized drops of the caliber that we are discussing will have the capability to kill people caught in the drop zone. Ever been in a fire situation where there was a communication snafu? If you can answer no, then I'm amazed, or you're not a firefighter.
    As to using these aircraft properly, it has always seemed that the most effective application of these tools is to build fireline along the flanks of fires, pinching towards the head. Not to drop retardant directly onto the flames. Yet, that's what we see them do, regularly.
    If used in advance of ground suppression forces building indirect line in level to gently rolling terrain, I think there may be a valid and effective use for these aircraft. Especially since they can operate from most of the existing tanker bases we use now. If turn-around times approach those of the P-3s (The 8 the Feds have recertified)then they will probably work better, and more importantly, be more cost effective than what we have now.
    I have nothing against salesmen, as long as I understand their agenda, that's all
    As to screws loose, yeah, a lot of my colleagues would agree with you. However, most of them don't underestimate what I've managed to learn and teach so far. And I'm still learning.
    So, if you'd like to discuss capabilities and applications of these particular aircraft, I am more than happy to listen and learn.
    If, instead, you'd rather try to blow smoke up the kilts of the gullible and attempt to humiliate the rest, then our conversation is done.

    A16, nice to be back. Alaska was an eye-opener to say the least. Looking forward to more opportunities.

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    cbp333 - Well Said Brother!
    Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
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    IACOJ 2003

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    Originally posted by budthespud
    Speaking of screws. Have you got one or two loose or is
    this your way of showing the folks how clever and humorous
    you are?
    My first thought was to defend my brother, CBP333....who just happens to be one of my superior officers. But I knew quite well that a response would be forthcoming from him....and chose to wait and enjoy that response.

    CBP the third.....I salute you. Well stated. I am proud to serve with you brother!

    As I recall....the Firehouse.com Terms of Service clearly state:

    Representatives or associates of manufactuers will not be permitted to post messages that directly promote their products or harm the reputation of another product or manufactuer. All commercial related representatives or associates MUST identify themselves as such within EACH post.

    Answer the question..........
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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    Does your commandng officer often go 'round
    hoping that aiplanes drill themselves into
    the sides of mountains?

    If so, I seriously question his judgment.

    An article, just for you:

    Smoke and Mirrors; Stop calling firefighters "heroes."
    Last edited by budthespud; 08-04-2004 at 07:56 AM.

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    Originally posted by budthespud
    Does your commandng officer often go 'round
    hoping that aiplanes drill themselves into
    the sides of mountains?
    If so, I seriously question his judgment.
    I trust him with my life. Enough said.

    As for you....I seriously question your motives.

    Answer the question Bud.
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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    I told myself I was done with this thread, but I just can't stop...



    I seriously question your motives.
    NJ, there's no qestion about his motive. He wants to sell Ilyushins. The only question is how much money does he have tied up in this project.

    Anyone that so much as questions him gets slammed. Bones is a bureaucrat for simply asking how many airports can support a 150+ ton airplane that needs a mile long runway.

    I'm sure I'll get slammed too. Oh well, it will just break my heart.

    budthespud, based on their posted history NJ and cbp333 are very experienced wildland firefighters. Their opinions are based on boots on the ground experience.

    Answer the question. Have you ever fought a wildland fire? Have you ever fought any fire?

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    Originally posted by budthespud
    An article, just for you:

    Smoke and Mirrors; Stop calling firefighters "heroes."
    Old news Spud. (Oct. 31, 2003) That was discussed here months ago. My comments regarding the article are on record in the thread. One opinion from an author does not Gospel make. While others slammed the author, my attitude was that he is only one voice among millions of people that know what we do and appreciate us for it. End of story.

    Page 12 of thread

    Posted by NJFFSA16
    This is my first and final post regarding this article. When I read the comments by this author....I thought about all the other wonderful comments, letters, remarks and opinions of millions of people around this great country....who thank us, admire us and call us heroes.

    His comments, while quite painful to many of you, are outweighed by those comments which commend firefighters for what they do. It is a job of honor, dedication, integrity and satisfaction. We love what we do. We are proud of our accomplishments. Heroes? Maybe. Dedicated individuals? Most definitely.

    Get over it....move on. Stop the bashing and personal attacks. Act like the professionals you claim to be!

    NJ
    So....I'll ask another question.

    Do you work for Tom Edmison? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

    NJ
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    Default NOTICE TO CANADIANS ON THIS THREAD

    This afternoon at 6:30PM ET*
    CBC NewsWorld, Business News,
    a Calgary news feature on the
    IL-76 waterbomber will be
    carried again - nationally.

    Interviews with forest fire bureaucrats
    from the US and Canada are part of this
    clip. CBC's video editors have done an
    excellent job capturing many facets of
    operation of the world's most powerful
    firefighting aircraft.

    Unfortunately, no online video will be
    available this time.

    *Check telecast time in your area.
    Last edited by budthespud; 08-06-2004 at 04:55 PM.

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    Most powerful or most effective?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Powerful?
    By your own definition, Bud, you'd have to admit that the 747 supertanker is the world's most powerful...
    Care to explain why I'm wrong?

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    Check with aviation experts before you
    conlude the 747 is an air tanker. Even the
    test numbers show the Il-76 carries more in
    regular service than the other in initial
    testing.

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