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  1. #1
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    Default Riding Positions in volunteer department

    My department is considering establishing riding positions and I am curious how others have done this. Any info would be appreciated. We have a plan but How it has or hasn't worked for others would be helpful. Thanks, Wizzer1


  2. #2
    Forum Member jce51cfd's Avatar
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    However you decide to set up your riding positions you will have to incorporate them into your operating guidelines and training.

  3. #3
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    We went with vehicle assignments instead of riding positions. IC will designate the incoming vehicles for Engine Ops or Truck Ops. We don't have vehicles setup for one or the other, they are setup for both. Guys train in all the tasks. Call volume is about 200 per year. Works well for US.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    MembersZone Subscriber sbfdco1's Avatar
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    Our first and second due engines have riding positions, seems to work well for us. Your position is list across from your jump seat. Eight man crew, consisting of
    - 2 hydrant positions
    - Irons
    - 4' & 6' Hook (should be 6' and PW can)
    - Attack nozzle
    - backup noxxle man
    - 2 backup nozzle man
    - crew officer

    And your driver and Office up front.

    Hope this helps.
    Jim
    Firefighter/EMT
    IACOJ
    ftm-ptb-rfb-egh-ktf-dtrt!

    September 11, 2001 - NEVER FORGET!

    BETTER TO DIE ON YOUR FEET THAN LIVE ON YOUR KNEES!

  5. #5
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    Talking Riding Positions in Vol Dept

    I feel for Volunteer Companies it is easier to go by vehicle positions vs. riding positions. One you are never sure what man power you will have on any given call. I found that in volunteer depts with hydrant systems it is easier for the first due engine to be search\attack, 2nd due engine will handle water supply. Then they can fill in on backing up the 1st due engine with initial attack. If you have a truck company they will do truck company operations, forcible entry, search, and most importantly ventilation. What ever your dept. decides to do they must train to do it. Many Vol. Depts have riding positions or engine assignments but never train to do it that way. When that call comes in the riding positions go to the wayside and the end result is a waste of paper and ink and a bad outcome for our number one customer, the tax payer. Good luck with what you decide though and be safe.

  6. #6
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    We don't utilize riding position assignments. What you do depends on what your apparatus is assigned to do by command.

  7. #7
    Forum Member Fire40man's Avatar
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    Here also. BOO

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    My first dept. where I started out as a junior FF many, many moons ago
    had designated riding positions but also assigned these positions to the FF's prior to boarding the apparatus. This dept. was always
    very progressive & followed FDNY's lead (they now have about 25 guys "on the job" in every company/position you can think of - rescue co.'s, squads, battalion chiefs, spec ops lts., etc.)..their policy was to gear up & meet up on the apron. Officer picked his crew & assigned jobs, you got in that seat and you knew what you were & what you needed.

    Another dept. (actually their neighbor) assigns positions to the apparatus enroute...chief calls & says "Engine 15, you will be an engine, set up for interior attack, Engine 8, you will be a truck, set up for search, Engine 12 you will an engine for water supply"...they only recently put a dedicated ladder truck in service (used Aerialscope)..don't know how they have modified their ops since then.

    As many have said, do what works for you...I think a list of tools for the job on an engraved sign above the seat is a great idea...have seen this on many an apparatus.

    Just my 2 cents..Stay Safe....
    Last edited by Firescueguy; 08-20-2004 at 06:35 PM.

  9. #9
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    We assigned tools by riding position, so each seat knew what it was responsible for, based on the number of people on the engine. Example:

    3 man engine: officer has radio, TI and handlight; firefighter has radio and hoseline; engineer has radio and irons.
    4 man engine: officer has radio and TI; 1 firefighter has radio and hose while the other has handlight and backup on hose; engineer has radio and irons.
    5 man engine: officer has radio and TI; 1 firefighter has radio and hose while the other has handlight and backup on hose; 3rd FF has 6 foot hook and radio; engineer has irons.

    Etc....

    Individuals rode whichever piece went out first. Everyone had to know all the tools. We posted the roles above the seats so that if someone forgot what his job was (based on engine manpower), he could just look up.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  10. #10
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    We also assign the tools/job by riding position.

    We run 6 man engines, officer and operator in front. In back:
    Seat 1 is the officers aid, takes radio and irons.
    Seat 2 is the nozzle man.
    Seat 3 is the backup man.
    Seat 4 is layout.

    If we don't have a full crew, the person in the highest numbered seat is the layout man.

    We have similar assignements for the truck. Members go out on the apparatus as they show up for a call. If we are on a standby, then we assign people to an apparatus, otherwise, you get on whatever is the next piece out.

  11. #11
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    My Department does not use seat assignments. After having several near accidents with people running full out to the engine to get "the good seats" they are not issued by the senior member in the back. We typically run a three man engine company. The Officer takes the bar and the Line man takes...you guessed it...the line. Layout is done by whomever is feeling up to it. If we happen to have more members onboard, they are given assignments by the senior member before we pull up, and then are instructed by the officer from that point on.

  12. #12
    Senior Member shammrock54's Avatar
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    In my dept the officer on the truck hands out assignments as he sees fit to work the call. So if I'm in the right seat I turn to see who I have aboard and as we head out to the call I assign what I need. example: "Dave-irons, Pete-can, Jeff-hook" and I hump the TIC. Thats it nice quick and allows me as the officer to have the FF I have the most confidence in a position to do that job, not have to rely on whomever got there *** in a certain seat first.
    Member IACOJ & IACOJ EMS Bureau
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    As always these are strictly my own opinions and views

  13. #13
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by shammrock54
    In my dept the officer on the truck hands out assignments as he sees fit to work the call. So if I'm in the right seat I turn to see who I have aboard and as we head out to the call I assign what I need. example: "Dave-irons, Pete-can, Jeff-hook" and I hump the TIC. Thats it nice quick and allows me as the officer to have the FF I have the most confidence in a position to do that job, not have to rely on whomever got there *** in a certain seat first.
    We used to do it this way too. I found as an officer it caused me to spend more time managing tasks rather than managing strategy. By assigning jobs per seat, my time on arrival was spent on size up and gathering information. The guys knew what they had to do and who was responsible for what. The time on size up gave us time to have a solid game plan in place and make sure that everyone was on the same page. It also made us take time to ensure all the jobs we needed to do got done. Ideally, as a 6-man engine, we'd have a hose team, an FE team, an engineer and an OVM.

    We found it helpful in eliminating a lot of the back and forth to the rig as well as eliminating the need to assign basic tasks. In short, it helped the process run more smoothly. But, that is what worked for US.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber BurnCMSFD's Avatar
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    Default Positions

    I work out of a paid on call system with no one full time but a couple of maintenance workers (days only). We have about 130 firefighters and six stations, we have two basic ff classes a year. It is somewhat impossible to make seat positions or apparatus positions cause we never know who is going to show up for a call, how many or experience level. A officer usually shows up and makes assignments based on the experience that is in the back, this doesnt take long as soon as you have a size up or assignment in route to scene.
    Rescue is a specialty, you have to take a 40hr class to be a Rescue tech and you must be able to do all jobs so seat assignments dont come into play, however the officer still gives the assignments in most cases.
    So unless you are a paid department and your men/woman are there its not feasible in my opinion to make truck or seat assignments. We have about 600 average calls a year just fire/rescue, 2500 ems.

    Burn
    Burn<br />LT/EMT/Inst />Central Mat-Su FD<br />Wasilla Alaska

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    We just started assigning positions in my volly house in our truck company. The normal irons, can, roof, and ov positions. All our firefighters are trained enough to know how to perform each position. The company officers made a few laminated cards with each position and a quick summary of which tools they should be taking. We don't designate specific seats for each position, the officer will assign the positions to each member as he sees fit... ex: Senior guys get the roof, or irons. Firefighters with less experience or just pure lack of knowledge usually get assigned the can. Anyways we don't have any problems with that, it is not to much for the officer to turn around take a quick look and designate 4 positions, its not that hard. We have had great success with it and it has made our truck company much more efficient.

  16. #16
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    Default riding postions

    that's one of the biggest things i like to see in a fire department...and that is when the dept. looks to make it self better and more efficient in fire ground operations by setting up organization through the littlest things. riding postions with assignments to go along with them is good, cause it will make things run more smooth and it will make it easier on an officer instead of having him tell the crew what they should be bringing to a scene, especially when he's the guy whose listening to the size up and IC on scene....
    but this is an issue that departments have to remember to incorperate that there is a difference between paid and volunteer department, and that is "crew status" because of trainning. on paid dept. there are set crews for each shift, so each crew is either trained for each assignment or just one assignment, so in this case each guy understands his role and the rest of the crews roles cause of trainning and because this is their profession and they do it everyday so they know they can rely on each other because they've trained hard and know each other well....
    the difference with this is that in volunteer dept. is that its not paid and that everyone on a volunteer dept has a job and a family so there are different priorities in guys on volunteer dept. and not that im trying to put anyone down because im on a volunteer dept. also, but my point is this if a volunteer dept. is going to assign riding postions to the truck or an engine, the main issue is that everyone needs to be trained on each aspect of this and it has to be drilled....because you got to remember who your riding with because u may get a guy who never trains and come to a call one day and it turns out to be a big one, he may be expierence and be able to adapt to the surroundings, or he may just panic and be clueless, so its necissary to make sure that it becomes apart of SOG's and that trainning is done with everyone.

  17. #17
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Default Re: riding postions

    Originally posted by ck78ovfd
    but my point is this if a volunteer dept. is going to assign riding postions to the truck or an engine, the main issue is that everyone needs to be trained on each aspect of this and it has to be drilled....
    Everyone should be trained in every aspect. These are basic Firefigting skills that everyone should know. It's not like we are talking about Hazmat Tech or Paramedic skills........ This is stuff everybody should know........

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    One thing to remember when making your riding positions is to base it on what is normal - don't plan 6 riding positions if it is more likely that the engine will roll with 4 on it. Instead plan for 4, with a plan 'B' for if there is only 3. If you get more than 4 then well and good - someone will find something for them to do on the way to the job.
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

  19. #19
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by stillPSFB
    One thing to remember when making your riding positions is to base it on what is normal - don't plan 6 riding positions if it is more likely that the engine will roll with 4 on it. Instead plan for 4, with a plan 'B' for if there is only 3. If you get more than 4 then well and good - someone will find something for them to do on the way to the job.
    We addressed this by including options at each seat. For example, "seat 6" on the engine was assigned as "2nd truck" position to help with FE and search. If this seat was empty, his tools went to "seat 5" who was a "1-man FE team." This way we could keep 2 in/2 out and have the OVM. If we rode as a 4-man company, the hose team had to carry some tools, and there was no "truck team." I recommend building the flexibility into the assignments, rathern than having unplanned seats.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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