1. #51
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    I'm sure the rest of the posts made here recently by members of my infamous ignore list are just as baseless and flaming.

    WOO HOO! He is talking about me! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


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    A Kerry flip-flop on the ignore list. I ignored you before I didn't ignore you.

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    Nozzleman, our history of invasion is actually quite long. Vietnam, Korea, Europe and North Africa in WW2, and Europe in WW1. Vietnam never attacked us, nor did Korea yet we found ourselves in wars there. Though some peopel will try to not call those wars. Japan attacked us in WW2, yet we went to war with Germany first. WW1, once again we were not attacked there either. As far as flimsy evidence about terrorism, it is quite clear that Saddam openly supported terror. He admitted to it. He openly offered payouts to suicide bombers. I guess in my opinion that isn't flimsy. That is without even bringing up Abu Nidal, who was harbored in Iraq for years, or al-Zaraqawi (however you spell his name). Fact of the matter is Saddam WAS a state sponsor of terror, he is out of that particular business now.

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    Nozzleman, our history of invasion is actually quite long. Vietnam, Korea, Europe and North Africa in WW2, and Europe in WW1. Vietnam never attacked us, nor did Korea yet we found ourselves in wars there.
    I think Vietnam was a stupid war, just like this one. Korea had its own set of circumstances, of which I'm not really prepared to discuss, right now. The reasons for war in Europe and Japan were very clear cut, even if questionable practices in the past by the US and others helped lead up to war. There was no evidence of any threat by Iraq to the sovereing United States; those people couldn't fart without us knowing it.
    As far as flimsy evidence about terrorism, it is quite clear that Saddam openly supported terror. He admitted to it. He openly offered payouts to suicide bombers. I guess in my opinion that isn't flimsy.
    Again, there is FAR more evidence of terrorist connection in many, many other countries. Offering payments to the families of suicide bombers is NOT an excuse for war.
    Once again, when someone calls you on something, you cry personal attack.
    So, don't attack me with blather concerning an unrelated thread.
    I am not ignoring the truth. I want to learn the truth. All I want you to do is enlighten, with evidence, that this war is about oil. That's all. Show me evidence and I will shout from the rooftops that you are correct and that the George W. Bush administrator are a bunch of tyrants.
    George, come on; look at history...tell me honestly that there is any other reason for establishing control in that region. Far more people die in other places in the world, and we do not offer THEM liberation from their misery. It's oil, and control of that oil, that is at the heart of ANY goings-on in that region, regardless of whether it's military or not. ANYONE who denies that is not being honest enough to continue a debate with.

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    Japan attacked us in WW2, yet we went to war with Germany first.

    The U.S. Congress passed the war declarations against Japan on
    December 8, 1941 and against Germany and Italy on December 11, 1941.
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    I think Vietnam was a stupid war, just like this one. Korea had its own set of circumstances
    Vietnam began just as Korea did, one nation invading another. THe invading nation in both cases was communist and it was the position of the U.S. to deny the proliferation of communism. That being said, Vietnam was a micrmanaged war with politicians dictating what should be done by the military. You cannot effectively fight a war with these restrictions. When Lyndon Johnson is quoted as saying that our pilots cannot bomb an outhouse in Vietnam without him knowing about it, then you know you have no ability to accomplish the goals set out. Neither of these cases is different than when Iraq invaded Kuwait. It is an invasion of one sovereign nation over another sovereign nation.

    Again, there is FAR more evidence of terrorist connection in many, many other countries. Offering payments to the families of suicide bombers is NOT an excuse for war.
    Again, I ask you, is it OK if we go after Syria or Iran then?

    When those terrorists kill American citizens, it is a reason. One dies not sit idly by while this occurs. U.S. citizens were killed and attacked by "Palestinian" organizations in the past. Hussein payed money to these groups and the families fo attackers. This is not "flimsy" evidence.

    ANYONE who denies that is not being honest enough to continue a debate with.
    Nice to see that you are open to differing points of view. I do not say this in any mean manner, but one should not close out ANYONE's point of view because they have made up their own minds about a situation.
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    Originally posted by DaSharkie

    Nice to see that you are open to differing points of view. I do not say this in any mean manner, but one should not close out ANYONE's point of view because they have made up their own minds about a situation.
    Careful, Shark. You're going to earn a spot on Noz's hallowed ignore list.

    If you really want to **** him off, post a picture of dead Kurdish women huddling over their dead babies, trying to protect them from Saddam's chemical weapons, and ask him if he thinks that they agree with his assessment of Hussein as harmless. That'll put you on the ignore list express.

    Pretty soon our resident socialist Nozzie is gonna be talking to himself.
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    George, come on; look at history...tell me honestly that there is any other reason for establishing control in that region. Far more people die in other places in the world, and we do not offer THEM liberation from their misery. It's oil, and control of that oil, that is at the heart of ANY goings-on in that region, regardless of whether it's military or not. ANYONE who denies that is not being honest enough to continue a debate with.
    Eloquent rhetoric. But I asked you for EVIDENCE! I don't want a debate, I want you to educate me.

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    C'mon George, EVIDENCE requires some element of FACT and a FACT to a Liberal is like Kryptonite to Superman!~
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    Eloquent rhetoric. But I asked you for EVIDENCE! I don't want a debate, I want you to educate me.
    That would be like offering you evidence of the nose on your own face; what should I do if you can't see it? Cut it off and hand it to you? I could post link after link defining every squabble and conflict in that area of the world for the last one hundred years, and it would do no good. The fact is, the reasons we went to war were BUNK. Of course, GWB blamed it on "bad intelligence" and Tenet's head rolled for it, but America knows the truth...and so do you. It's all about the $$$$, and you know it.

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    Thanks Noz, that was good.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    That would be like offering you evidence of the nose on your own face; what should I do if you can't see it? Cut it off and hand it to you? I could post link after link defining every squabble and conflict in that area of the world for the last one hundred years, and it would do no good. The fact is, the reasons we went to war were BUNK. Of course, GWB blamed it on "bad intelligence" and Tenet's head rolled for it, but America knows the truth...and so do you. It's all about the $$$$, and you know it.
    No. You could take a picture of it, or you could hand me a mirror.

    I am not interested in the last 100 years. I am challenging you to provide one piece of evidence that, as you have charged, President George W. Bush intiated the wr in Iraq in order to gain control of the Iraqi oil supply.

    That sounds like a very simple problem.

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    I must agree, Noz that was F U N N Y! After school today I really needed that. Off to study Physiology. Woo Hoo!
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    That sounds like a very simple problem.
    And it is; when all other reasons turned out to be pure bunkum, then whatever remains is what you have. It worked for Holmes. Besides, we've been over this...
    No real connections between Iraq and terrorism...or no more (and far less) than many other nations.
    No real threat from Iraq's military. None. What are they going to do? Float their camels over here and attack Miami? Again, these guys couldn't even fart without us being all over them.
    Weapons of mass destruction; again, none found. I mean, if we're gonna kick somebody's ***, why not start in North Korea? If GWB wants to be a hero at the expense of thousands of lives, why not pick on a REAL problem nation?
    So...that leaves us with GWB's favorite excuse; the world is better off without Saddam. Well, I'll guarantee you that if he had pulled this excuse out of his *** in the first place, the people would not have gone for it. I can't believe he can even say it with a straight face. GWB and his cronies took advantage of the aftermath and atmosphere of 9-11 and used it as chance to do something they've been wanting to do for years. I was all lies. Again, we do NOT go around starting wars, simply because someone is a "bad person" and the "world would be better off without them". What a joke. It is the oil; there's nothing else there, but sand.
    Great job on highjacking a thread, though.

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    I must agree, Noz that was F U N N Y! After school today I really needed that.
    Heh...I know; I nearly fell out of my chair.

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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    And it is; when all other reasons turned out to be pure bunkum, then whatever remains is what you have. It worked for Holmes. Besides, we've been over this...
    No real connections between Iraq and terrorism...or no more (and far less) than many other nations.
    No real threat from Iraq's military. None. What are they going to do? Float their camels over here and attack Miami? Again, these guys couldn't even fart without us being all over them.
    Weapons of mass destruction; again, none found. I mean, if we're gonna kick somebody's ***, why not start in North Korea? If GWB wants to be a hero at the expense of thousands of lives, why not pick on a REAL problem nation?
    So...that leaves us with GWB's favorite excuse; the world is better off without Saddam. Well, I'll guarantee you that if he had pulled this excuse out of his *** in the first place, the people would not have gone for it. I can't believe he can even say it with a straight face. GWB and his cronies took advantage of the aftermath and atmosphere of 9-11 and used it as chance to do something they've been wanting to do for years. I was all lies. Again, we do NOT go around starting wars, simply because someone is a "bad person" and the "world would be better off without them". What a joke. It is the oil; there's nothing else there, but sand.
    Great job on highjacking a thread, though.
    Great job on avoiding an issue. I didn't ask you about WMD, Saddam or anything else except: You amde the charge that GWB initiated this war in order to gain control of Iraq's oil supply. Please provide one single piece of evidence that you have to support this charge.

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    Noz, what other country has defied 12 years worth of UN sanctions? Did not the UN give an ultimatum (and then have the Iraq-backing nations flip-flop)?

    Anyhow, I stayed up last night to hear Kerry's response to the RNC. He also claims Bush lied about the WMD. As was posted on these forums somewhere, there were like 20+ quotes of people (including Kerry) talking about the WMD's in Iraq. How is they can all talk about it and be wrong, but when Bush talks about it he is lying? (flip-flop)

    I heard Kerry talk about some great ideas for health insurance, education, creating jobs, etc. I have yet to hear HOW a President is going to create any jobs, just that they will. HOW will any of this be paid for? Is he going to talk to every Senator and Congressman and get them to change their votes? I look forward to some exciting 60 days ahead.

    One of my other favorite Kerry comments last night..."I don't have to defend my military service to someone that stayed home when they could have been there." (not an exact quote, but that's the idea of it) Sorry Kerry, you want to run for office, you have to answer to anyone and everyone.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Noz, what other country has defied 12 years worth of UN sanctions? Did not the UN give an ultimatum (and then have the Iraq-backing nations flip-flop)?
    http://www.globalpolicy.org/unitedst.../0415moral.htm
    Anyhow, I stayed up last night to hear Kerry's response to the RNC. He also claims Bush lied about the WMD. As was posted on these forums somewhere, there were like 20+ quotes of people (including Kerry) talking about the WMD's in Iraq. How is they can all talk about it and be wrong, but when Bush talks about it he is lying? (flip-flop)
    Because the info that Bush receives is worlds ahead of what any other official might receive. Nothing reaches them that is not approved by Bush, himself. And we now know that the evidence was twisted, outdated, and pretty much false. The Bush Administration was intentionally deceitful in releasing such flimsy "evidence", and they are even more guilty of hyping it up to promote a needless war; something they've wanted for years, any way. This, in my opinion, makes Bush a liar. Of course, Tenet's head rolled for his alleged role in passing the "bad intel" along...but have you heard the old saying that you can delegate authority, but you can't delegate responsibility? We all know now the evidence for invading Iraq was weak, much of it being a joke, period. There is no denying this. Iraq was a threat to no one. Saddam rattled his sabers and did a lot of bad stuff, but so do many other leaders of nations. It is not a reason to start a WAR.
    I heard Kerry talk about some great ideas for health insurance, education, creating jobs, etc. I have yet to hear HOW a President is going to create any jobs, just that they will. HOW will any of this be paid for? Is he going to talk to every Senator and Congressman and get them to change their votes? I look forward to some exciting 60 days ahead.
    Again, political posturing on both sides. It is expected, and we should all be used to it, by now. However, GWB started a stupid, needless war, based on lies and half-truths, that has killed THOUSANDS of people. The man panders to the far right, and the Christian fundies. Quite frankly, he scares the hell out of me. I do not want to go back to the bad old days, when people are ashamed or afraid to walk the streets because of who or what they are.
    One of my other favorite Kerry comments last night..."I don't have to defend my military service to someone that stayed home when they could have been there." (not an exact quote, but that's the idea of it) Sorry Kerry, you want to run for office, you have to answer to anyone and everyone.
    And he has. Once again...
    Kerry: Highly decorated combat veteran of the Vietnam War
    G.W. Bush: Stayed home and joined a champagne unit, rendering a pitiful service record.
    The neo-cons can hate it all they want, but nobody is ever going to change that fact.

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    Default Nozzelman

    Maybe you should read your HERO's first book, "the new Soldier" Take a look at the cover. This is what your dream lover thinks of this country. He came back here and sh&t on his brother vets. Then writes a lefty scum book like this about his country. But this doesn't count because he is an elite lefty. You can try and down talk Bush all you want but it still will not cover up the stench of Hanoi John.

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    Default Someone please Copy this so the Rat can read it.

    POST REMOVED.

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    Noz, thanks for the link. Some very interesting reading there. Not sure I buy much of it, but it's interesting.

    The quotes that I referenced were from 1992-2000, long before Bush was President and had the "inside" information. Did all the stuff mentioned in those quotes disappear in 2000? They all had the same information, some people decided to act on it, others talked about it.

    Funny, I see more people walking around proud to be Americans. More flags, more signs, etc. But I'm not in TN.

    Yes, he says he has answered, yet there are people who say he hasn't answered. In what I remember of the RNC, I didn't hear a lot of talk about Kerry's war record, but I saw an awful lot of it during the DNC. Personally, I don't think it's helping Kerry at all so he should drop it and move on.


    Tiller, you are very much the same.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Tiller, you are very much the same
    Thanks for the reply, I will file that right next to "Who gives two Sh-ts what you think" and "How about a nice cup of STFU."


    I am sick of his Anti-American ravings. And I have rarely backed down from a debate. I will attempt to get as much fact as I can from reliable sources. So don't try your BS with me either. Being Nice to people isn't always an option.
    Last edited by TillerMan25; 09-03-2004 at 01:40 PM.
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    AMEN Tiller, these libs act like they are above being made to answer for there wild rhetoric. Time for them to grow a set and stop whinning. When you put out facts and win the debate then it is that you are attacking them. Their only answer is one scripted by the lib talking points. Hear one hear them all.

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    It is a typical lib trait to say something, and as soon as you are called upon to prove it, you cry personal attack.

    I have been challenging him to provide some evidence in his "War for oil" mantra for almost a year. So far, the total "proof" has been.."everybody knows it".

    I sleep better at night knowing that a principled leader like President Bush is at the helm. As Rudy said, "Thank God George Bush is President".

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