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  1. #41
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Originally posted by oldman21220
    The point is that these are the people that Nozz thinks should have oversight. The ones that think that they don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else.
    Gotcha. Good point. The further away the decision making gets from your local area, the less accountability. It's funny, because on most issues Noz would tell you that the government, and especially President Bush, is a den of liars and thieves.

    So why would he want to put his funding lifeline in the hands of these people? It doesn't make sense, but then most liberal positions don't when you actually take them out and walk them around the block.

    By the way - Noz isn't likely to answer any of my posts. I earned a cherished and well-deserved spot on his "ignore" list by pointing out to him that Saddam killed a lot of people, which was inconvenient to his position that Saddam wasn't such a bad guy, especially compared to that imperialist dictator and focus of all evil in the world, George W. Bush.
    Last edited by BucksEng91; 08-31-2004 at 11:50 PM.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

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  2. #42
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    Originally posted by ThNozzleman



    Do you want the feds to dictate your staffing levels? Your work week? Your response protocols?

    how....Orwellian...
    *edited for spelling...fat finger syndrome!
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  3. #43
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    Default BuckEng91

    I earned a cherished and well-deserved spot on his "ignore" list by pointing out to him that Saddam killed a lot of people, which was inconvenient to his position that Saddam wasn't such a bad guy, especially compared to that imperialist dictator and focus of all evil in the world, George W. Bush.
    I am right there with you buddy. I got on there for pointing out that Saddam wasn't a Neighbor of the Kremlin, like "Mr. Tin Foil Hat" from Tennessee wanted us to believe.....

    I think ThNozzleman and Al Gore are two of the Most Rabid Liberals in Tenn.
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  4. #44
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    We all must have hit that list. Ever since I called him on his stupid "war for oil" comment for the umpteenth time, he hasn't been here. Oh well.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Especially since the North caused much of the damage by bombarding many cities, Sherman's march through Georgia and the Carolinas, the Siege of Richmond, and the raiding of the countryside for supplies and taking them from citizens. It was an obligation to repay those war crimes committed in that war.

    Ok...so I can't resist...

    There is no "obligation" to repair the damage of war.

    But it is the moral and ethical thing to do.

    Beyond idealism, it's all the practical thing to do -- priming the economy helps everyone.

    Wars a fought by people...but they're between governments & politicians. You may fight a war, but when it's over the decent thing to do is extend a hand and pull the people of the former enemy backup off the ground.

    Certainly "war crimes" was a novel if not non-existent theory back at the time of the Civil War, if memory serves me right it didn't come into play really until the turn of the 19th century (although their had been some parts of that theory around before -- such as regarding spying and priracy).

    That is it has become a moral, ethical, and practical thing speaks volumes for the strengths of Western Civilization. We ain't perfect, but we're the direction the world is heading despite those who can't stand giving individuals rights & freedom to make choices.
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  6. #46
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    We all must have hit that list. Ever since I called him on his stupid "war for oil" comment for the umpteenth time, he hasn't been here. Oh well.
    Oh, great; here we go again. George, no matter how many times you ignore the truth, it doesn't change anything. Anyone with any sense at all will realize the ONLY interest of the West in that area of the world. I know it, you know it, and we all know it. All the silly little posts you can generate are not going to change that...not now, or ever. If there were no oil in that region of the world, we would not give two damns about it. Anytime I bring up what is most obvious to anyone with half a brain, you go off on the tired old terrorist connection/Saddam was a very bad person tangent. Got news for you pal; it isn't cutting it, anymore. I'm sure the rest of the posts made here recently by members of my infamous ignore list are just as baseless and flaming. I ask you again, George, where is the history of our invading nations, simply because their leaders are "bad people" or because of some flimsy "evidence" of "terrorist connections"? I'm sure you'll just spout the same old tired rant you always do, but that's just fine with me. I'm pretty sure we were discussing the need for federal oversight in this nation, something that I believe is very much needed. If all you have to offer is to attack me for something that was being discussed in a totally different thread, then I feel sorry for you.
    DaSharkie...
    I was not actually refering to the Civil War in my comments; rather, the breaking up of the KKK by the FBI and Johnson, during the 1960's. Here is a clear-cut example of why Federal oversight is needed. The same is true today, in my opinion. Our Nation cannot allow localized pockets of extremists to suppress people, simply because THEY hold the power in that part of the Nation. Intervention is needed, it doesn't matter if it was Wallace then, or Roy Moore, now.
    Last edited by ThNozzleman; 09-01-2004 at 10:58 PM.

  7. #47
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    And, before the "Orwellian" and "socialism" retorts get out of hand, we've heard the same old hysterical cries like this for years and years. In the late 1800's and early 1900's, big business and filthy rich tycoons screamed socialism and bloody murder every time the Federal government did such things as to make laws making workplaces safer, standardize practices, and abolish child labor. Every standardization...every safety requirement...every law that helped the working class; they were ALL misconstrued as "socialism" by greedy tycoons and their yes-men cohorts in Washington. I think some of you need to actually look back at the history of our nation, and how bad it really was for a great number of people, for an awful long time. DaSharkie did bring up an interesting point; had the Federal government not taken action during the pre-Civil War years, I have no doubt in my mind that the South would be a very different (and very bad) place today.
    Last edited by ThNozzleman; 09-01-2004 at 11:01 PM.

  8. #48
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Another successful program (regardless of how mismanaged it has become in later years) was the TVA program. This Federal program helped many people and places in the Southeast and other areas by providing jobs, power, and flood control.

  9. #49
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Ok...so I can't resist...

    There is no "obligation" to repair the damage of war.

    But it is the moral and ethical thing to do.
    If you re-read the post that is exactly what I said in my post. Nevermind the fact that the war occurred on our own nation's soil.

    And, before the "Orwellian" and "socialism" retorts get out of hand, we've heard the same old hysterical cries like this for years and years.
    Problem is that government run healthcare for every citizen is a socialist idea. I have never said it is a bad idea, just a socialist idea. I do not support it for a variety of reasons, just as I do not support a variety of programs that the FEDERAL government has. Many of these programs are socialist in their ideals and implementation, especially when done at the FEDERAL government level.
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  10. #50
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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    Oh, great; here we go again. George, no matter how many times you ignore the truth, it doesn't change anything. Anyone with any sense at all will realize the ONLY interest of the West in that area of the world. I know it, you know it, and we all know it. All the silly little posts you can generate are not going to change that...not now, or ever. If there were no oil in that region of the world, we would not give two damns about it. Anytime I bring up what is most obvious to anyone with half a brain, you go off on the tired old terrorist connection/Saddam was a very bad person tangent. Got news for you pal; it isn't cutting it, anymore. I'm sure the rest of the posts made here recently by members of my infamous ignore list are just as baseless and flaming. I ask you again, George, where is the history of our invading nations, simply because their leaders are "bad people" or because of some flimsy "evidence" of "terrorist connections"? I'm sure you'll just spout the same old tired rant you always do, but that's just fine with me. I'm pretty sure we were discussing the need for federal oversight in this nation, something that I believe is very much needed. If all you have to offer is to attack me for something that was being discussed in a totally different thread, then I feel sorry for you.
    DaSharkie...
    I was not actually refering to the Civil War in my comments; rather, the breaking up of the KKK by the FBI and Johnson, during the 1960's. Here is a clear-cut example of why Federal oversight is needed. The same is true today, in my opinion. Our Nation cannot allow localized pockets of extremists to suppress people, simply because THEY hold the power in that part of the Nation. Intervention is needed, it doesn't matter if it was Wallace then, or Roy Moore, now.
    Once again, when someone calls you on something, you cry personal attack.

    I am not ignoring the truth. I want to learn the truth. All I want you to do is enlighten, with evidence, that this war is about oil. That's all. Show me evidence and I will shout from the rooftops that you are correct and that the George W. Bush administrator are a bunch of tyrants.

    But there was no personal attack.

  11. #51
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    I'm sure the rest of the posts made here recently by members of my infamous ignore list are just as baseless and flaming.

    WOO HOO! He is talking about me! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


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  12. #52
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    A Kerry flip-flop on the ignore list. I ignored you before I didn't ignore you.

  13. #53
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Nozzleman, our history of invasion is actually quite long. Vietnam, Korea, Europe and North Africa in WW2, and Europe in WW1. Vietnam never attacked us, nor did Korea yet we found ourselves in wars there. Though some peopel will try to not call those wars. Japan attacked us in WW2, yet we went to war with Germany first. WW1, once again we were not attacked there either. As far as flimsy evidence about terrorism, it is quite clear that Saddam openly supported terror. He admitted to it. He openly offered payouts to suicide bombers. I guess in my opinion that isn't flimsy. That is without even bringing up Abu Nidal, who was harbored in Iraq for years, or al-Zaraqawi (however you spell his name). Fact of the matter is Saddam WAS a state sponsor of terror, he is out of that particular business now.

  14. #54
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Nozzleman, our history of invasion is actually quite long. Vietnam, Korea, Europe and North Africa in WW2, and Europe in WW1. Vietnam never attacked us, nor did Korea yet we found ourselves in wars there.
    I think Vietnam was a stupid war, just like this one. Korea had its own set of circumstances, of which I'm not really prepared to discuss, right now. The reasons for war in Europe and Japan were very clear cut, even if questionable practices in the past by the US and others helped lead up to war. There was no evidence of any threat by Iraq to the sovereing United States; those people couldn't fart without us knowing it.
    As far as flimsy evidence about terrorism, it is quite clear that Saddam openly supported terror. He admitted to it. He openly offered payouts to suicide bombers. I guess in my opinion that isn't flimsy.
    Again, there is FAR more evidence of terrorist connection in many, many other countries. Offering payments to the families of suicide bombers is NOT an excuse for war.
    Once again, when someone calls you on something, you cry personal attack.
    So, don't attack me with blather concerning an unrelated thread.
    I am not ignoring the truth. I want to learn the truth. All I want you to do is enlighten, with evidence, that this war is about oil. That's all. Show me evidence and I will shout from the rooftops that you are correct and that the George W. Bush administrator are a bunch of tyrants.
    George, come on; look at history...tell me honestly that there is any other reason for establishing control in that region. Far more people die in other places in the world, and we do not offer THEM liberation from their misery. It's oil, and control of that oil, that is at the heart of ANY goings-on in that region, regardless of whether it's military or not. ANYONE who denies that is not being honest enough to continue a debate with.

  15. #55
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Japan attacked us in WW2, yet we went to war with Germany first.

    The U.S. Congress passed the war declarations against Japan on
    December 8, 1941 and against Germany and Italy on December 11, 1941.
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  16. #56
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    I think Vietnam was a stupid war, just like this one. Korea had its own set of circumstances
    Vietnam began just as Korea did, one nation invading another. THe invading nation in both cases was communist and it was the position of the U.S. to deny the proliferation of communism. That being said, Vietnam was a micrmanaged war with politicians dictating what should be done by the military. You cannot effectively fight a war with these restrictions. When Lyndon Johnson is quoted as saying that our pilots cannot bomb an outhouse in Vietnam without him knowing about it, then you know you have no ability to accomplish the goals set out. Neither of these cases is different than when Iraq invaded Kuwait. It is an invasion of one sovereign nation over another sovereign nation.

    Again, there is FAR more evidence of terrorist connection in many, many other countries. Offering payments to the families of suicide bombers is NOT an excuse for war.
    Again, I ask you, is it OK if we go after Syria or Iran then?

    When those terrorists kill American citizens, it is a reason. One dies not sit idly by while this occurs. U.S. citizens were killed and attacked by "Palestinian" organizations in the past. Hussein payed money to these groups and the families fo attackers. This is not "flimsy" evidence.

    ANYONE who denies that is not being honest enough to continue a debate with.
    Nice to see that you are open to differing points of view. I do not say this in any mean manner, but one should not close out ANYONE's point of view because they have made up their own minds about a situation.
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  17. #57
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DaSharkie

    Nice to see that you are open to differing points of view. I do not say this in any mean manner, but one should not close out ANYONE's point of view because they have made up their own minds about a situation.
    Careful, Shark. You're going to earn a spot on Noz's hallowed ignore list.

    If you really want to **** him off, post a picture of dead Kurdish women huddling over their dead babies, trying to protect them from Saddam's chemical weapons, and ask him if he thinks that they agree with his assessment of Hussein as harmless. That'll put you on the ignore list express.

    Pretty soon our resident socialist Nozzie is gonna be talking to himself.
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  18. #58
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    George, come on; look at history...tell me honestly that there is any other reason for establishing control in that region. Far more people die in other places in the world, and we do not offer THEM liberation from their misery. It's oil, and control of that oil, that is at the heart of ANY goings-on in that region, regardless of whether it's military or not. ANYONE who denies that is not being honest enough to continue a debate with.
    Eloquent rhetoric. But I asked you for EVIDENCE! I don't want a debate, I want you to educate me.

  19. #59
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    C'mon George, EVIDENCE requires some element of FACT and a FACT to a Liberal is like Kryptonite to Superman!~
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  20. #60
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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