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  1. #61
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Eloquent rhetoric. But I asked you for EVIDENCE! I don't want a debate, I want you to educate me.
    That would be like offering you evidence of the nose on your own face; what should I do if you can't see it? Cut it off and hand it to you? I could post link after link defining every squabble and conflict in that area of the world for the last one hundred years, and it would do no good. The fact is, the reasons we went to war were BUNK. Of course, GWB blamed it on "bad intelligence" and Tenet's head rolled for it, but America knows the truth...and so do you. It's all about the $$$$, and you know it.


  2. #62
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Thanks Noz, that was good.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  3. #63
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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    That would be like offering you evidence of the nose on your own face; what should I do if you can't see it? Cut it off and hand it to you? I could post link after link defining every squabble and conflict in that area of the world for the last one hundred years, and it would do no good. The fact is, the reasons we went to war were BUNK. Of course, GWB blamed it on "bad intelligence" and Tenet's head rolled for it, but America knows the truth...and so do you. It's all about the $$$$, and you know it.
    No. You could take a picture of it, or you could hand me a mirror.

    I am not interested in the last 100 years. I am challenging you to provide one piece of evidence that, as you have charged, President George W. Bush intiated the wr in Iraq in order to gain control of the Iraqi oil supply.

    That sounds like a very simple problem.

  4. #64
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    I must agree, Noz that was F U N N Y! After school today I really needed that. Off to study Physiology. Woo Hoo!
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  5. #65
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    That sounds like a very simple problem.
    And it is; when all other reasons turned out to be pure bunkum, then whatever remains is what you have. It worked for Holmes. Besides, we've been over this...
    No real connections between Iraq and terrorism...or no more (and far less) than many other nations.
    No real threat from Iraq's military. None. What are they going to do? Float their camels over here and attack Miami? Again, these guys couldn't even fart without us being all over them.
    Weapons of mass destruction; again, none found. I mean, if we're gonna kick somebody's ***, why not start in North Korea? If GWB wants to be a hero at the expense of thousands of lives, why not pick on a REAL problem nation?
    So...that leaves us with GWB's favorite excuse; the world is better off without Saddam. Well, I'll guarantee you that if he had pulled this excuse out of his *** in the first place, the people would not have gone for it. I can't believe he can even say it with a straight face. GWB and his cronies took advantage of the aftermath and atmosphere of 9-11 and used it as chance to do something they've been wanting to do for years. I was all lies. Again, we do NOT go around starting wars, simply because someone is a "bad person" and the "world would be better off without them". What a joke. It is the oil; there's nothing else there, but sand.
    Great job on highjacking a thread, though.

  6. #66
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    I must agree, Noz that was F U N N Y! After school today I really needed that.
    Heh...I know; I nearly fell out of my chair.

  7. #67
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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    And it is; when all other reasons turned out to be pure bunkum, then whatever remains is what you have. It worked for Holmes. Besides, we've been over this...
    No real connections between Iraq and terrorism...or no more (and far less) than many other nations.
    No real threat from Iraq's military. None. What are they going to do? Float their camels over here and attack Miami? Again, these guys couldn't even fart without us being all over them.
    Weapons of mass destruction; again, none found. I mean, if we're gonna kick somebody's ***, why not start in North Korea? If GWB wants to be a hero at the expense of thousands of lives, why not pick on a REAL problem nation?
    So...that leaves us with GWB's favorite excuse; the world is better off without Saddam. Well, I'll guarantee you that if he had pulled this excuse out of his *** in the first place, the people would not have gone for it. I can't believe he can even say it with a straight face. GWB and his cronies took advantage of the aftermath and atmosphere of 9-11 and used it as chance to do something they've been wanting to do for years. I was all lies. Again, we do NOT go around starting wars, simply because someone is a "bad person" and the "world would be better off without them". What a joke. It is the oil; there's nothing else there, but sand.
    Great job on highjacking a thread, though.
    Great job on avoiding an issue. I didn't ask you about WMD, Saddam or anything else except: You amde the charge that GWB initiated this war in order to gain control of Iraq's oil supply. Please provide one single piece of evidence that you have to support this charge.

  8. #68
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Noz, what other country has defied 12 years worth of UN sanctions? Did not the UN give an ultimatum (and then have the Iraq-backing nations flip-flop)?

    Anyhow, I stayed up last night to hear Kerry's response to the RNC. He also claims Bush lied about the WMD. As was posted on these forums somewhere, there were like 20+ quotes of people (including Kerry) talking about the WMD's in Iraq. How is they can all talk about it and be wrong, but when Bush talks about it he is lying? (flip-flop)

    I heard Kerry talk about some great ideas for health insurance, education, creating jobs, etc. I have yet to hear HOW a President is going to create any jobs, just that they will. HOW will any of this be paid for? Is he going to talk to every Senator and Congressman and get them to change their votes? I look forward to some exciting 60 days ahead.

    One of my other favorite Kerry comments last night..."I don't have to defend my military service to someone that stayed home when they could have been there." (not an exact quote, but that's the idea of it) Sorry Kerry, you want to run for office, you have to answer to anyone and everyone.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #69
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Noz, what other country has defied 12 years worth of UN sanctions? Did not the UN give an ultimatum (and then have the Iraq-backing nations flip-flop)?
    http://www.globalpolicy.org/unitedst.../0415moral.htm
    Anyhow, I stayed up last night to hear Kerry's response to the RNC. He also claims Bush lied about the WMD. As was posted on these forums somewhere, there were like 20+ quotes of people (including Kerry) talking about the WMD's in Iraq. How is they can all talk about it and be wrong, but when Bush talks about it he is lying? (flip-flop)
    Because the info that Bush receives is worlds ahead of what any other official might receive. Nothing reaches them that is not approved by Bush, himself. And we now know that the evidence was twisted, outdated, and pretty much false. The Bush Administration was intentionally deceitful in releasing such flimsy "evidence", and they are even more guilty of hyping it up to promote a needless war; something they've wanted for years, any way. This, in my opinion, makes Bush a liar. Of course, Tenet's head rolled for his alleged role in passing the "bad intel" along...but have you heard the old saying that you can delegate authority, but you can't delegate responsibility? We all know now the evidence for invading Iraq was weak, much of it being a joke, period. There is no denying this. Iraq was a threat to no one. Saddam rattled his sabers and did a lot of bad stuff, but so do many other leaders of nations. It is not a reason to start a WAR.
    I heard Kerry talk about some great ideas for health insurance, education, creating jobs, etc. I have yet to hear HOW a President is going to create any jobs, just that they will. HOW will any of this be paid for? Is he going to talk to every Senator and Congressman and get them to change their votes? I look forward to some exciting 60 days ahead.
    Again, political posturing on both sides. It is expected, and we should all be used to it, by now. However, GWB started a stupid, needless war, based on lies and half-truths, that has killed THOUSANDS of people. The man panders to the far right, and the Christian fundies. Quite frankly, he scares the hell out of me. I do not want to go back to the bad old days, when people are ashamed or afraid to walk the streets because of who or what they are.
    One of my other favorite Kerry comments last night..."I don't have to defend my military service to someone that stayed home when they could have been there." (not an exact quote, but that's the idea of it) Sorry Kerry, you want to run for office, you have to answer to anyone and everyone.
    And he has. Once again...
    Kerry: Highly decorated combat veteran of the Vietnam War
    G.W. Bush: Stayed home and joined a champagne unit, rendering a pitiful service record.
    The neo-cons can hate it all they want, but nobody is ever going to change that fact.

  10. #70
    Forum Member xploded's Avatar
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    Default Nozzelman

    Maybe you should read your HERO's first book, "the new Soldier" Take a look at the cover. This is what your dream lover thinks of this country. He came back here and sh&t on his brother vets. Then writes a lefty scum book like this about his country. But this doesn't count because he is an elite lefty. You can try and down talk Bush all you want but it still will not cover up the stench of Hanoi John.

  11. #71
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    Default Someone please Copy this so the Rat can read it.

    POST REMOVED.

    NO PERSONAL ATTACKS HERE

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  12. #72
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Noz, thanks for the link. Some very interesting reading there. Not sure I buy much of it, but it's interesting.

    The quotes that I referenced were from 1992-2000, long before Bush was President and had the "inside" information. Did all the stuff mentioned in those quotes disappear in 2000? They all had the same information, some people decided to act on it, others talked about it.

    Funny, I see more people walking around proud to be Americans. More flags, more signs, etc. But I'm not in TN.

    Yes, he says he has answered, yet there are people who say he hasn't answered. In what I remember of the RNC, I didn't hear a lot of talk about Kerry's war record, but I saw an awful lot of it during the DNC. Personally, I don't think it's helping Kerry at all so he should drop it and move on.


    Tiller, you are very much the same.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  13. #73
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    Tiller, you are very much the same
    Thanks for the reply, I will file that right next to "Who gives two Sh-ts what you think" and "How about a nice cup of STFU."


    I am sick of his Anti-American ravings. And I have rarely backed down from a debate. I will attempt to get as much fact as I can from reliable sources. So don't try your BS with me either. Being Nice to people isn't always an option.
    Last edited by TillerMan25; 09-03-2004 at 12:40 PM.
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  14. #74
    Forum Member xploded's Avatar
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    Default AMEN

    AMEN Tiller, these libs act like they are above being made to answer for there wild rhetoric. Time for them to grow a set and stop whinning. When you put out facts and win the debate then it is that you are attacking them. Their only answer is one scripted by the lib talking points. Hear one hear them all.

  15. #75
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    It is a typical lib trait to say something, and as soon as you are called upon to prove it, you cry personal attack.

    I have been challenging him to provide some evidence in his "War for oil" mantra for almost a year. So far, the total "proof" has been.."everybody knows it".

    I sleep better at night knowing that a principled leader like President Bush is at the helm. As Rudy said, "Thank God George Bush is President".

  16. #76
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    The quotes that I referenced were from 1992-2000, long before Bush was President and had the "inside" information. Did all the stuff mentioned in those quotes disappear in 2000? They all had the same information, some people decided to act on it, others talked about it.
    I do not question the fact that resolutions against Iraq existed. They exist against many nations, including many of our allies. My main problem is the way the Bush Administration presented the need for war, and the way they continue to tie the war in Iraq to the "war on terrorism". I don't think that many people actually consider the ramifications of declaring war on a sovereign nation for such flimsy evidence and excuses as what the President presented. And when none of it panned out, we are constantly fed the "well, the world's better off without Saddam" line. I'm sorry, but that was not one of the reasons I remember Bush giving for going to war. Would Saddam like to have multiple nuclear and biological weapons at his disposal? Of course he would; what nation (including our own) wouldn't? Did he have them? Of course not. Was he even remotely close to developing them? No. We were constantly fed horror stories of Saddam being so evil, he gassed his own people. In fact, Saddam did not consider the Kurds to be his "own people". He viewed them as troublemakers and a problem. Does this make it right that he gassed them? Of course not. Had it been any better if he had used conventional weapons to kill the same number of people? Before anyone misunderstands my comments, I do not support anything Saddam did or does. My point all along has been that we do not rush about the globe, sending the majority of our military into sovereign nations, simply because they are "evil" people. The Bush Administration used every trick in the book to convince us that war was the ONLY recourse we had; that Saddam had somehow forced us to act by violating UN resolutions, and was on the verge of attacking us and the rest of the world. As I've stated before, these people couldn't fart without us knowing it. When the vast majority of the world refused to go along with the plan, they were labeled as back-stabbing fools and cowards. People on these very forums have suggested unloading bombs on France on the way to Iraq. Really intelligent input there, I tell you. How do you think the rest of the world view us? Most of the posters here may not give a damn, and they have stated as such. But, I'm here to tell you; we will not win the war on terrorism with bullets and bombs. It just won't work, I don't care how much vengeance the armchair-generals here at home would like unload on these nations. And as for my often challenged notion that oil was at the heart of the decision to invade Iraq, I stand by my beliefs. It should be apparant to all that the reasons stated by Bush were wrong. And blaming "bad intel" should not release one from the liability and responsibility for one's actions. Of course, many in the American and British government would like nothing better than to return to the days of colonialism, when we could plunder other nations resources at will, because we had more guns than they did. (Iraq was a former British colony, by the way) I'm constantly berated on these forums to "prove" it was about the oil. Well, I don't have to. All of Bush's excuses have been shown to be a farce; and at best, certainly no reason to start a damn war, which killed thousands. That, plus the provable, known history of our involvement in that area of the world, is proof enough to me. We move and manipulate in that region of the world for the same reason Rommel and Montgomery were there fighting during WW2; oil.
    Last edited by ThNozzleman; 09-04-2004 at 02:34 AM.

  17. #77
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    It is a typical lib trait to say something, and as soon as you are called upon to prove it, you cry personal attack.
    Chasing someone from thread to thread, using a blanket statement concerning unrelated issues to attack my every post is just that; an attack.
    I have been challenging him to provide some evidence in his "War for oil" mantra for almost a year. So far, the total "proof" has been.."everybody knows it".
    Well, so far, we've pretty much determined that Bush's reasons were wrong and, basically, fabricated and puffed-up nonsense. So, since those are no longer valid reasons to start a war and invade another nation, then we must look elsewhere, right? Other than raiding ancient archeological sites, oil is the ONLY damn thing we've EVER been interested in, as far as that region of the world goes. Get a grip, George.
    I sleep better at night knowing that a principled leader like President Bush is at the helm. As Rudy said, "Thank God George Bush is President".

  18. #78
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Funny, I see more people walking around proud to be Americans. More flags, more signs, etc. But I'm not in TN.
    I'm not really sure what you meant by this.

  19. #79
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    Bob...if you want to talk about invading Iraq and using the words, "Sovereign" to help condemn it...remember Saddam had a history of invading Sovereign nations for oil (Iran & Kuwait). Both those invasions he predicated very directly over disputes about oil fields with the addition in Kuwait of not wanting to repay debts owed them. And oil was his actual pretext, not some conspiracy theory. He also supported terrorism in another sovereign state -- Israel -- by making large payments to the families of suicide bombers after they carried out their acts. It's not a word that holds much worth in context of Saddam & Company.

    Maybe the "used gas against his own people" is a bit of hyperbole. Ok, he used poison gas against citizens of his own country, as well as the military of Iran, and in the opinion of the U.N. inspectors was not fully cooperating with efforts to verify the dismantling of his weapons of mass destruction and similiar prohibited programs.

    So when you look at what information you had, and try and figure out what's going on...you're not sure if he's bluffing or not, he's not not folding his hand, and you know he's pulled the trigger on using poison gas, and you know he's supported terrorist organizations. So, do you go along hoping he's bluffing and or do end the game?
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  20. #80
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    So when you look at what information you had, and try and figure out what's going on...you're not sure if he's bluffing or not, he's not not folding his hand, and you know he's pulled the trigger on using poison gas, and you know he's supported terrorist organizations. So, do you go along hoping he's bluffing and or do end the game?
    Invading other nations, based on what they MIGHT do, is very poor policy, especially when the reasons and evidence given to support such an action are laughable, and questionable at best. Even at their peak, Iraq was not a real threat to the United States, and never was a threat. A threat to our supply of oil, perhaps, and that's a stretch. America had no complaints about Saddam's actions against Iran during the war, and we even supplied him with the tools to wage it. There is nothing one could say about Iraq that couldn't be said about many other nations. The excuses Bush gave to justify the war in Iraq were nowhere near enough of a reason to start a war and invade another nation...not even close. And as for weapons of mass destruction, I'd like to remind everyone that there is only one nation that has ever used true weapons of mass destruction on innocent human beings...and we're living in it. We are not a very positive role model for the world as far as that goes.

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