Thread: FDNY Ryders

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    Default FDNY Ryders

    "It's not a firetruck. It's not intended to be one," he said. "It's carrying lumber and associated tools and equipment for the purpose of shoring up buildings and structures following a collapse."

    "With all the terrorism threats, we thought it was a good idea to use these trucks temporarily until the new replacement trucks come in," Gribbon said.

    "Look, these trucks are not first responders, they are not going to roll up to an emergency scene.

    "It's not like you get there before someone dies," he said.


    I can understand the rental of the trucks untill the new ones come in, unless they replaced operational truck with the rentals, but I can not undestand this guys last comment!!! Is not the reason for cribbing a structure so you can perform more building search/rescues in a safer manner! I guess what this guy needs to realize is that it IS a life and death issue for both the responders and the individuals that may be trapped in a collapse!!!

    That is just my 0.02 worth.

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    I just read the article. It seems that the person you quote is slightly out of touch with what emergency services realy do. True are they going to be first alarm, most likely not (depending on caller info and other factors) however time is always of the esence in this job and I thought most reasonable people knew this. Shows what I know.

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    umm, they didn't take the truck away from the FDNY. from the lexis nexus article: "The official vehicle was loaned to a unit in Manhattan sometime in the past week." the the official one was transferred, probably in prep for the RNC

    the choice might have been the ryder truck or have every FF hop on the rescue with as much cribbing as he would hold. and besides, the unit wn't be rolling alone. the article says it will have a police escort to all calls, and if not police, a fire company vehilce will go with it.

    and i bet it takes FDNY about 20 minutes to put a small red rotator on the dash, and plug it into the cigarette plug
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Originally posted by DrParasite

    and i bet it takes FDNY about 20 minutes to put a small red rotator on the dash, and plug it into the cigarette plug
    What do you mean by that?

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    Originally posted by UsingAllHands
    What do you mean by that?
    well, considering you can't exactly install a lightbar or strobes in a rental truck, the easiest thing to do would be to use a red light that was removable. the easiest thing to use (and many police officer have them in their unmarked cars or temporary cars) is a small dashlight, like the whelen cadet or another similarly designed light. after all, if this is going to be responding with either a PD or FD escort, going through traffic lights and such, it would be beneficial for it to have some type of emergency warning light on it.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    well, considering you can't exactly install a lightbar or strobes in a rental truck, the easiest thing to do would be to use a red light that was removable. the easiest thing to use (and many police officer have them in their unmarked cars or temporary cars) is a small dashlight, like the whelen cadet or another similarly designed light. after all, if this is going to be responding with either a PD or FD escort, going through traffic lights and such, it would be beneficial for it to have some type of emergency warning light on it.
    I know what a dashlight is, what do you mean by it taking 20 minutes to throw one up on the dash?

    Granted, a buff like you could probobly do it in 3 seconds flat, but the firemen I work with are pretty intelligent guys. I don't think it would take anybody 20 minutes...

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    Default Rental Trucks

    What's the problem with this? Seems pretty resourceful to me. The city saw a need, and ordered the trucks. Obviously the need for the equipment was crucial, so they filled the void with the rental trucks. No biggie....I guess the Union is ****ed because the Trucks are yellow?.....

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    Default Re: Rental Trucks

    Originally posted by TillerMan25
    I guess the Union is ****ed because the Trucks are yellow?.....
    The UFA is ****ed because its inadequte equipment and a sorry excuse by the Spokesman. This thing was slapped together and the issue of someone using an emergency vehicle as a weapon is a very serious matter to us. This "apparatus" would be needed at a major building collapse for its shoring equipement. And with an RMP escoting it because it has NO warning devices and NO RADIO is an even bigger BS excuss. Thanks Millionare Mike and Mr. Maguee Scoppetta....its sad when we are the biggest FD in the country and we have to rely on donations from actors to get the basic needs for a city of our size.

    On the same note....We have 2 MERV units, MERV 1 and 4...(Major Emergency Response Vehicles)...They are Mobile Hospitals that carry a team of doctors, nurses, EMTs and Paramedics that we use for major incidents, airline crash, High rise fires, multipule alarms, etc...basic any MCI. MERV 1 quartered at EMS Battalion 8 is parked outside 365 days a year....this one is a new vehicle about 5 years old. MERV 4 quartered in Queens (forgot what battalion..54 I think)...is a circa 1980s USED SCHOOL BUS!....and is OOS most of the time....it is a "shadetree mechanics'" special....and here's another glaring example...the FDNY retired a fireboat that they were told not to by the Men that worked on it...the city said it was wasting away, "old", and no longer meets thier needs.....well on 9/11 the civilian that bought the boat and used it for rides on the waters of NYC was called and asked to bring it down becasue they needed it to flow water. The remaining Boat couldn't handle the volume....another blunder from the higher ups......
    Last edited by VinnieB; 08-11-2004 at 01:16 PM.
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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    umm, they didn't take the truck away from the FDNY. from the lexis nexus article: "The official vehicle was loaned to a unit in Manhattan sometime in the past week." the the official one was transferred, probably in prep for the RNC

    the choice might have been the ryder truck or have every FF hop on the rescue with as much cribbing as he would hold. and besides, the unit wn't be rolling alone. the article says it will have a police escort to all calls, and if not police, a fire company vehilce will go with it.

    and i bet it takes FDNY about 20 minutes to put a small red rotator on the dash, and plug it into the cigarette plug
    My biggest problem is not with the rental of the Ryder trucks! Sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do! My problem is with the attitude that the guy has towards said vehicles response!!!

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    Dr. Parasite, have you ever been in NYC..in midtown Manhattan...or anywhere else in NYC...EVER??? A dash light would not move NYC traffic...red lights & siren don't even help!!! The issue of red lights is not what the FDNY union is upset about (although it's a minor issue of relevance)...they are upset about the fact that they are being issued substandard equipment that just so happens to fit the terrorist vehicle profile...

    Just my 2 cents...Stay Safe...

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    Originally posted by Firescueguy
    Dr. Parasite, have you ever been in NYC..in midtown Manhattan...or anywhere else in NYC...EVER??? A dash light would not move NYC traffic...red lights & siren don't even help!!! The issue of red lights is not what the FDNY union is upset about (although it's a minor issue of relevance)...they are upset about the fact that they are being issued substandard equipment that just so happens to fit the terrorist vehicle profile...
    actually, I work in midtown, 34th and 8th to be exact. so i'm very familiar with the traffic situation. and you are absolutely right, that sole dash light will not move the traffic. but read this:
    It will be two pieces responding together. The Police Department has been provided with information. This is a temporary measure.
    see? it will be TWO pieces responding together, not just this one truck. That dash light, following behind a 2 ton fire engine or 3 ton ladder truck with lights going, the Q, and the air horn, will get through traffic. it's not easy, but i've seen it done.

    btw, for those of you who got your panties in a bunch, what collegebuff thought the reason was about the dashlight is correct. They will realize they have a problem with no warning lights, and internally take the steps to fix it, using the restrictions placed upon them (ie, can't do permanant damage, can't drill holes in the truck, etc)

    and I also doubt that this truck will be in midtown for this reason:
    The official vehicle was loaned to a unit in Manhattan sometime in the past week, according to Gribbon.
    so the real one is being used in manhattan. it also changes the response ability, by increasing the number of this type of unit from 1 "supply truck" (for lack of a better term) to 2, 1 in manhattan, the other in Brooklyn.

    here are both the articles if you don't think what i said was accurate.
    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=46&id=33854

    also, be sure to check out the lexisNexus Article at the bottom of the page, as it has some additional info
    Last edited by DrParasite; 08-11-2004 at 04:51 PM.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    working in manhattan is quite different from trying to move through traffic in an emergency. A red light as you suggested is insufficient, and illegal. In the state of New York, if I am not mistaken, red light=siren=permanant changes to the vehicle. Also, not to harp on misstatements, a fire truck at 2 tons is a little off, and I wish I could drive one of those (I believe they are typically around 10-15 tons).

    This is the FDNY, the city of New York. Money is spent in amounts one cannot believe. Sure, for people in suburbia or the country, a Ryder truck seems like a viable alternative, but in 99% of this country, traffic is not as heavy, response areas so big in such a dense area, and usage would not be as extreme. Lets not forget, a collapse unit in NYC can be busy every day of the year. Not to mention, 100% of the country has drivers who would be more considerate . But I am left wondering why the city that purchases upwards of 50 vehicles at a time could not purchase a demo or used rig (or old ryder truck) to do the job- it may just come out to be cheaper! I certainly wouldn't want to have to make the choice in a real disaster of trying to use my horn to clear traffic on the FDR or wait for an RMP they can free up...

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    Lets not forget, a collapse unit in NYC can be busy every day of the year.
    I find that interesting. Anyone know how often these collapse units actually run? I'd hate to think a building collapses every day in NYC.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    So I know that I have "no clue" about NYC and don't want one. But those of you who do what is the solution to the problem?

    From the article there are "new" vehicles on order that will be in NYC in a few months. I am sure that if FDNY ordered them they are highly specialized/quality units for their (FDNY) use.

    With the high threat level that NYC has I think everyone would agree that getting more of the equipment on the street is a good idea. So what do you suggest to do in the mean time?

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    Originally posted by ChiefDog
    So I know that I have "no clue" about NYC and don't want one.
    There in lays the problem of understanding the City of New York. It is not like ANY other place in the country. And needs some understanding to really discuss matters in regards to it.



    With the high threat level that NYC has I think everyone would agree that getting more of the equipment on the street is a good idea. So what do you suggest to do in the mean time?
    The solution would be not to "half-***" the current idea.
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    VinnieB you are missing my point. I assume you are from NYC. I am not and know that I do not understand NYC. Just like you would not know how to fix my small town situations. (Lack of understanding not smarts)

    The article states that new trucks are on order. Assuming they are the correct design for the job what do you do until they arrive?

    Pile the equipment up in some warehouse and wait for the new trucks to come? Or some temporary solution that is "different" from the Rental trucks. What would you do to not "half-***" the situation and fix it????????
    Last edited by ChiefDog; 08-12-2004 at 11:57 AM.

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    As I suggested, the City of New York spends dollar after dollar- it is (arguably) the financial capital of the world. That being said, anyone driving through New York City will see emergency lights on vehicles such as mobile hydrant defrosters, rehab units, I could go on til I am blue in the face. The rationale that for a few months, or weeks, that a COLLAPSE UNIT would have less warning equipment than your run of the mill ice-cream truck presents a serious paradox. Maintenance equipment is well equipped with warning devices, specialized rescue units are not. A few months can mean 100 runs for this Ryder truck, if not more. My suggestion was to purchase a demo or slightly used unit, afterall, there is always some use to be found for no longer needed FDNY apparatus. That, or buy a used Ryder truck that you could buy VERY cheap, in good shape, and make it fit the needs

    Bones, according to a friend at Rescue 3, they average around 1 collaps a day. Keep in mind, however, that there are many abandoned buildings in NY (many not far from Rescue 3), and any kind of collapse they respond to- many do not involve injuries.

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    Originally posted by ChiefDog
    VinnieB you are missing my point. I assume you are from NYC. I am not and know that I do not understand NYC. Just like you would not know how to fix my small town situations. (Lack of understanding not smarts)
    Actually I live in a small town in upstate and I am very involved with the politics. I work in NYC and commute. I spent my summers as a kid growing up in Queens, and I have worked in every borough but Staten Island...which most consider New Jersey anyway...

    The article states that new trucks are on order. Assuming they are the correct design for the job what do you do until they arrive?

    Pile the equipment up in some warehouse and wait for the new trucks to come? Or some temporary solution that is "different" from the Rental trucks. What would you do to not "half-***" the situation and fix it????????
    What you do is put what has to be put into a response vehicle of this nature. Lights, Radio, Siren Ext...We have alot of vehicles laying around that they could canablize the radios, sirens, etc to put on the temp. The should have also done a better job of covering "ryder" and generally make the vehicle NOT look like some "shadetree special" that catches the attention of the police. Orangehopeful adds some more insight in the matter. They one thing that "outsiders" must understand about NYC buerocracy is that they try to do the minimums to get by. They really don't give a "S" about the matter.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 08-12-2004 at 12:47 PM.
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    Orangehopeful, I've never weighed a fire truck. I'll yeild to your knowledge that they weigh closer to 15 tons. it's not really the point. the point was that there was another unit always responding with it.

    since you wanted to case law, here it is:
    Article 9 Equipment of motor vehicles and motorcycles
    Section 375 (41). Colored and flashing lights.
    2. Red lights and certain . One or more red or combination red and white lights, or one white light which must be a revolving, rotating, flashing, oscillating or constantly moving light, may be affixed to an authorized emergency vehicle, and such lights may be displayed on an authorized emergency vehicle when such vehicle is engaged in an emergency operation, and upon a fire vehicle while returning from an alarm of fire or other emergency.

    and when dealing with yeilding to those vehicles
    Article 26 Right of way
    Section 1144. Operation of vehicles on approach of authorized emergency vehicles.
    1144. Operation of vehicles on approach of authorized emergency vehicles.

    (a) Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle equipped with at least one lighted lamp exhibiting red light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet to the front of such vehicle other than a police vehicle or bicycle when operated as an authorized emergency vehicle, and when audible signals are sounded from any said vehicle by siren, exhaust whistle, bell, air-horn or electronic equivalent; the driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right of way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway, or to either edge of a one-way roadway three or more lanes in width, clear of any intersection, and shall stop and remain in such position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, unless otherwise directed by a police officer.

    http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/emer-vt.htm

    the law, as is mentioned above, does not require the light to be permanent. you can look it up for yourself if you so chose. And how many building collapses occur in NYC? and more importantly, how often do TWO collapses occur at once (remember, the official unit is currently in manhattan)? please provide your number to support your facts, and show where you got those numbers too.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Originally posted by DrParasite

    (remember, the official unit is currently in manhattan)? please provide your number to support your facts, and show where you got those numbers too.

    First off...good job with the case law bit. Referanced Fact are always good.

    Secondly...Rescue 3 is the Citywide Collapse Unit and they are in the Bronx on E 176 Street. The second collaspe unit is going to be, I believe, quartered w/ Rescue 2 in Brooklyn.

    In 2002 the Structural Collapse Unit had 174 Runs 85 were workers and 312 hours worked. This is compiled from the 2003 annuall report
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    according the the article, the second collapse unit is going to be stored with Ladder 132. Rescue 2 makes more sense to me, but i'm only going with what i have read.

    according to the numbers provided by Vinnie, the Collapse unit responded to an average of 1 collapse every other day, and has a working collapse on average every 4 days. is it really worth it to spend all the money on a temporary unit when they only go to work every 4 days to rescue someone?

    oh and for the record, you Staten Island is part of New York. We consider that land fill to be a shining example of New York City. and the Statue of Liberty is also in New Jersey, in case you were confused about it
    Last edited by DrParasite; 08-12-2004 at 02:42 PM.
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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    oh and for the record, you Staten Island is part of New York. We consider that land fill to be a shining example of New York City. and the Statue of Liberty is also in New Jersey, in case you were confused about it


    NO NO NO NO NO!....You can keep Staten Island! It smells more like NJ. And is the bright and gleaming example of Newark, Jersey City, and AC.

    You got us on the Statue though...I think the border goes right through the middle.....?
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    Tell ya what, you can take Staten Island, The Jets, and the Giants. We'll keep the Statue of Liberty.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Oh..that dog just ain't gonna hunt.... ....Tell you what....Sink Staten Island.....Keep the Jets, and Giants,,,,we'll give you the Mets, Islanders, and Knicks too...we get the Statue.
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    I appreciate the case law, as was stated, its always good to have hard facts in front of you. The facts I was poorly trying to articulate is that #1- I was always told lights on, sirens on- we may not all follow this but it is opening the door to a law suit if the siren isnt even installed- I may have been instructed wrong, so I forgive me if I am wrong. #2- This unit was put in place because the city presumably saw a need, meaning it will have more than one or two responses. If I were driving a large vehicle to the scene of an emergency, large being as I stated 10-15 tons, I would want as much warning to get people out of my way, and as much protection from liability- they always say, CYA. These units are not a waste- the city always has a use for excess vehicles, they have always found a use for old vehicles, from the old mack engines being converted to decon units, etc.

    I understand no one wants the Jets, Knicks, Rangers, etc., but the Giants? Come on boys, we finally got a QB!!!

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