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  1. #1
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    Default Kerry's Heroism?

    Hmm i was always leary about hero's that like to talk about their heroism, being on a fire dept we all knew some heros and they would rather talk about whats for dinner.. is Kerry having trouble with his heroism stories??

    In March 1986, Kerry said, during a speech on the Senate floor, that, "I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared — seared — in me...."

    Boston Herald in 1979, "I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."


    More recently, in a profile of Kerry that appeared in the Washington Post in June 2003, Kerry revealed that he kept an old camouflage hat from the war in a secret pocket in his briefcase. "My good luck hat," Kerry told the paper. "Given to me by a CIA guy as we went in for a special mission in Cambodia."

    But in excerpts from the upcoming new book "Unfit for Command" first obtained by the Drudge Report, Swift Boat veteran John O'Neill writes:
    "Despite the dramatic memories of his Christmas in Cambodia, Kerry’s statements are complete lies. Kerry was never in Cambodia during Christmas 1968, or at all during the Vietnam War ... he was more than fifty miles away from Cambodia."

    The charge that Kerry lied about being in Cambodia could be particularly damaging, since at least three of Kerry's "band of brothers" crewmates back up the Swiftvet critics.

    Reports O'Neill:
    "At least three of the five crewmen on Kerry's boat, Bill Zaldonis, Steven Hatch, and Steve Gardner, deny that they or their boat were ever in Cambodia."

    Steve Gardner, who served on board PCF-44 under Kerry's command in December 1968, as well as part of January 1969, says that at the time, in the area in which Kerry and his crew were operating, it was not possible to take a swift boat to Cambodia.

    "It was physically, totally, categorically, across-the-board impossible to get into the canal that went to Cambodia with a swift boat," says Gardner. "There were concrete pilings that were put in the water...plus, the Navy kept patrol boats there to make sure nobody went in. When I was on the 44 boat, it was a physical impossibility to take a swift boat into Cambodian waters."
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    I am not a Kerry supporter by a LONG shot, but I am getting really ticked off byt two things that keep coming out:

    1) Where were these people taht are going after his war record over the past 20 plus years of his political life? It is the same with Clinton (again I was never a big fan of the guy) but where were all of these people and critics of him over the span of his previous 20 plus year political life. I am not saying that they are lying, I just hate it when all of the little dtractors come out after years and years. It weakens their complaints and arguments.

    2) I have to wonder about why his war record is touted so much and the same about his medals and awards. He has done little if anything to minimize it. I have never and I mean NEVER seen anyone's purple hearts, Bornze Star, or Silver Star touted so much. The recipients (I refuse to call them "winners" - it is not a competition - are the most humble, quiet, and down to Earth folks you could ever want to meet. They do nothing but minimize what they did in combat and credit those that served with and under them with accomplishing what they did. I have to wonder why Kerry is allowing the DNC, and his own campaign for that matter, to run and use this so much. It weakens the amount of respect I have for the man as a warrrior by touting his wartime accomplishments.

    I have a book called "Above and Beyond" about aviation Medal of Honor recipients and they all credit their wingmen and squadron mates for their ability to do what was necessary and think that they are undeserving of the medal and its laurels. They were just a warrior in the right place at the right, time so to speak.

    When you look at the difference in comparing Bob Dole's acts in World War II (for which he has lost almost total use of his Right arm) and how Kerry has been and is touting his war record it is like night and day. Two decorated veterans, both injured, one is quiet about his service and the actions that cost him severely physically and emotionally, one is boasting upon the fact that he served and was injured three times, admittedly without losing a single day (not even collectively) of combat time. Look at former President George H. W. Bush: Youngest Naval aviator to serve, shot down over the ocean, served his nation, it is not, nor do I recal it being touted by him - though I do recall mention of it as him having served in the armed forces where Bill clinton and Michael Dukakis (a.k.a. "Tanker") never served.

    That is about as much touting of any military service I tolerate by either party, he served his country. I shall extends my thanks and respect to you for having done so. From one warrior to another.
    Last edited by DaSharkie; 08-11-2004 at 08:04 AM.
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    As relates to Kerry, he was the one that wanted to run as a war hero. Once he does that, then his record and untruths about it becomes a matter of importance. Unless they are a MUTT themselves, I doubt that anyone here would want a MUTT as fire chief. It's really the same deal.

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    The reason that John Kerry's service in Vietnam is being questioned is his own fault. John Kerry chose to make his service in Vietnam a platform on which his ability to be commander-in-chief was based. Anytime that you establish any platform, or policy as a President, or a Presidential candidate it will be picked apart and disected. And rightly so for that matter.More of the problem here is that the left does not like having their own tactics used against them. I'm sure we have all heard of moveon.org, they have been active participants for the left on other issues. Swiftboat vets for truth has their own agenda, for what they are saying is truth. They have a right to their say, and these men were there, defending their free speach rights while the majority of Americans spit on them. Perhaps including John Kerry himself. On another note though, since when has having served in the military been a requirement of the President? If that were the case, the Democrat's hero Bill Clinton would surely have never been President. Especially considering he ran against George H.W. Bush, a WWII airman who was shot down, and Bob Dole also a veteran who left a good part of his arm in the same war. Their military service was down played, in order to have Clinton gain the presidency. Now they want a requirement of war hero service?The men criticizing Kerry's record are all Vietnam veterans, deserving of a legetimate look at what they have to say. They earned it. Besides, Kerry could put an end to all questions about his record by making public his service record. If what he has said is truth, what is there to hide? Open up the records and let us see what truly happened. Again, the only reason that this has become an issue is because Kerry decided to run on his service record. Anyone who watched the DNC can plainly see that. He wants to run on it, fine, that is his perogitive. If hes has nothing to hide, he should open the records up and erase all doubts surrounding his service. Perhaps then all we will do is openly thank him for his service, and rightly so. Provided there has been no misrepresentation done.

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    The real HERO's of Viet Nam are on the wall!

    As for the story above, I'll give you a little background on the Mekong River, where it crossed into Viet nam.
    After a 5 month stint with the 25th Infantry, I served with Advisory Team 64 in Chou Doc Province, district of Tan Chou which was right on the boarder with Combodia and on the Mekong River. The only Navy boats I saw or delt with were PBR's and some Gunboats. I never in all my time there (11 months) ever saw a swift boat. So Hanoi John can't be telling the truth here. It would have to be a fabrication. I am only stating what I know and saw. So take it as you will.

    The Swift Boat Vets have every right to question Kerry's assertions as related to his service in their unit. They served honorably and much longer that Hanoi John. I'll choose to believe them before I'll believe hanoi John.

    I saw an ad the other day that showed Kerry on the river bank with his combat gear and M-16. In my 16 months in Viet Nam I never, ever saw anyone taking 8mm films while in any type of action. In my honest opinion this had to have been a staged film. He knew exactly what he was doing and that was preparing himself to become a politician.

    In the end game, I could never consider voting for Kerry because of his Winter Soldier testimony (lies). If he actually did and/or saw what he stated, he would be a war criminal and should have been prosecuted for those war crimes. He should also have been charged with dereliction of duty.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 08-12-2004 at 10:02 AM.

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    Originally posted by DaSharkie
    but where were all of these people and critics of him over the span of his previous 20 plus year political life.
    O'Neill has been on his butt since the late 60s even appeared against him then on the dick cavett show..said he warned the dmc about him and they wouldn't listen, he also said that him winning the democratic nomination was just more than he could take, in fact he said it made some of the swiftie's physically sick..

    correction.. make that the DNC
    Last edited by StoveBolt; 08-12-2004 at 12:05 PM.
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    FireLt1951 - Thank you for your service. From a "Jarhead" to an Army "Dog."

    Stovebolt - I thank you for the correction and point, but I do have to wonder where all of these people were as a collective voice? I understand that his assention to the national spotlight has made it a greater issue, but I really need to know for myself. I am not, nor have I stated, that these gentlemen do not have the right to protest his record, I just don't necessarily liek the delay in doing so. It does not change my opinion of the guy (I may not like a lot Bush's policies - but I tolerate him a heck of a lot better than I tolerate Kerry).
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    I have recently been talking to a few of the swift vets online. They made it known that they were not concerned about Hanoi John because the vast majority don't live in Massachusetts (really don't know if ANY do). Once he stepped up to become a national candidate, they felt compelled to voice their opinions and I wholeheartly agree. Hanoi John is not running for Senator but for President, therefore the game has changed. Kerry has on many occasions lately brought up his service, so he has no one to blame but himself. I have never cared for Kerry, just as I don't care for Kennedy but I don't live in Massachusetts and have no control over their choice. Now as a national candidate, things have changed. I have never forgiven Hanoi John for the accusations made against Viet Nam veterans. Hanoi John, with Hanoi Jane and others made my life miserable after my return because of their lies and their aiding the enemy. It was one thing to protest the war but making inaccurate accusations that affected so many combat veterans was inexcusable. Now all of a sudden he's using his service for purely political reasons (the man has no shame), I'm not going to buy the rhetoric and his un-truths. This doesn't even cover his socialist leanings. If he gets elected, I'll live with it the best I can but he'll never have my respect as a citizen or veteran.

    Sharkie,

    I prefer GRUNT
    How do you feel about Hanoi John's depiction of the flag raising on Iwo Jima. To me it's a total insult to all the Marine's that fought and died on that sacred soil and Hanoi John choose to make lite of it?

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    I remember several years ago on the TV show JAG, that a guy was running for a seat in congress. He was going around telling every one that he was a seal. He even bought a pin that seals wear and was wearing it. Some body spotted this phoney and exposed him. This guy turned out to be a writer in the rear with the gear.

    Actually, this was a true story that JAG had on its program.

    The bottom line to this, is that any one can buy and wear combat medals, except the Medal of Honor. Having this medal by fraud, is a criminal offense and you shall go to jail, without passing go.

    Take this as it is. If you beleive Kerry, then vote for him. It would be like voting for Jane Fonda and all the other phoneys that protray themselves as Americans, but really are a wolf in sheeps clothing, always giving aid to the ememy.

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    i heard the doctor speak, that treated him for one purple hearts (am radio sean hannity), he said it was a piece of medal the size of pencil lead about 1/2" long and half sticking out of his arm, one of the reasons the guy remembered him was, the enlisted guys with Kerry told him, not in front of Kerry , "thats the new JFK from Massachusetts he's going to be president someday" he also said the size of the wound don't have any bearing on wounded in action and that he didn't know kerry or anything about him, other than that one incident..
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    Lt. - I'll call you a grunt. For any infantryman it seems to be a badge of honor to be called a "grunt," by anyone who was not especially.

    As for the imitation flag raising of Iwo Jima.....

    These men has nothing on those great Marines (and one Navy Corpsman by the way). Three of these men never made it off of Iwo alive, having died in comabt before FDR could get their orders cut to return home for war bond tours. These men were also VERY uncomfortable with the publicity and wanted to return to the Pacific to continue the fight. Ira Hayes ended up an alcoholic and died basically drinking himself to death as he was haunted by the demons of this battle. He is still highly respected by his native tribe though.

    It is shameful and diminishes the accomplishments of the Marine Divisions that invaded that dispicable rock and died by the thousands.

    As for the protestors, I have to ask where are they now? (Other than supporting Kerry I mean?) None of them have come out publicly saying anything about it. I know the DNC and Kerry would not want to have his war protestations brought up and made light of now - it seems to be all but forgotten.

    The bottom line to this, is that any one can buy and wear combat medals, except the Medal of Honor. Having this medal by fraud, is a criminal offense and you shall go to jail, without passing go.
    Wearing any medal to which you were not awarded is a FEDERAL CRIMINAL OFFENSE and the military and FBI take it QUITE seriously, as do many veterans groups.

    For a good read about this, get ahold of Stolen Valor. It is a book written by a Vietnam vet who has case after case of guys who claimed to have been vetereans, been awarded medals, been awarded the MOH and proven to be false. An excellent book.

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

    This is from an ongoing case in point back in Mass. This twit claims to have been a P.O.W. in Viet Nam and has been getting into hot water over it. The Herald ran an article in mid-July about him and another last week. The FBI has handed off the investigation for further review by the Justice Department.

    These are the two articles and their links

    FBI probes POW-annabe for fraud
    By Tom Farmer
    Thursday, July 15, 2004

    A Groton man who claims he escaped from a Vietnamese prison camp and earned distinguished war medals is an apparent fraud whose case has been referred to the FBI based on a Herald probe of his fantastic accounts.

    Donald S. Weikel, 56, allegedly used his fabricated heroics to obtain a POW license plate from the Registry of Motor Vehicles as well as citations from the state Legislature and the town of Groton, which held a ``Donald Weikel Day'' three years ago to honor the Charlestown native.

    ``We have no input whatsoever that he was a prisoner of war,'' said Larry Greer of the Department of Defense, which maintains the nation's official list of POWs.

    Weikel also claims to have returned to combat after escaping from a POW camp and to have earned a Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts.

    ``It's safe to say he does not have those medals,'' said Herb Edwards at U.S. Marine headquarters in Washington.

    Weikel did serve with the Marines in Vietnam in the spring and summer of 1966 but was not in combat from 1965 to 1969 as he claims in articles published last week in the Ayer Public Spirit and in a 2002 book by Groton Eagle Scouts.

    Weikel's own Marine Corps discharge document, or DD-214, which he allowed the Herald to photograph yesterday, clearly states his entire length of service was one year, eight months and two days with nine months and four days of ``foreign or sea service,'' which designates time spent in combat or on deployment.

    Confronted about his alleged lies, Weikel was steadfast that he was a POW for four months from September 1965 to January 1966 and earned the medals on the document he showed the Herald. ``You want to see the bullet holes on me?'' he challenged, displaying scars on his bare torso. ``Here's my record. It's all right here.''

    Retired Marine Master Sgt. Richard Pittman of California, a Medal of Honor recipient in Vietnam who examined the document photographed by the Herald, said it appears Weikel altered a copy of his DD-214 to reflect the awarding of the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals and changed his discharge rank to sergeant from lance corporal.

    Pittman and former Marine James Roy of Georgetown raised suspicions about Weikel after they read stories about him last week in the Ayer newspaper.

    ``I'm just amazed how the communities where these people reside are so willing to accept these statements without fact,'' Pittman said. Pittman said there are differences in the type where Weikel's disputed medals are noted as well as misspellings and other inaccuracies on the DD-214 that indicate it was altered.

    FBI Special Agent Thomas Cottone confirmed yesterday Weikel's case has been referred to the FBI for investigation. Fraudulently wearing a military medal or altering service records is a federal offense punishable by up to a year in prison or fines.

    The nonprofit POW Network has Weikel on its list of ``Phonies and Wannabes'' and obtained his military record through the Freedom of Information Act. It states the highest decoration he was awarded was the Combat Action Ribbon.

    Registrar of Motor Vehicles Kimberly Hinden said when Weikel obtained the POW plate in 1998 he needed to show documentation to the Veterans Administration. ``The VA says it has no record of him or of him being a POW,'' she said yesterday.

    Officials believe Weikel showed the VA a 1996 letter from the National Public Records Center in Washington to the office of Sen. Edward M. Kennedy [related, bio] (D-Mass.) that states Weikel ``was a POW/MIA.'' The NPRC letter, also obtained by the Herald, has different-sized type and appears to have been altered. A copy has been forwarded to Kennedy's staff to compare with the original.

    Meet the Rambo of Groton

    Among Donald S. Weikel's allegedly false claims are:


    He was taken prisoner in a 1965 ambush and spent four months in a Vietnamese village in which he was held captive in a 20-foot pit covered with bamboo and tortured on a ``rack,'' had the skin of his testicles nailed to a chair and was shocked with electricity.


    He saw prisoners' limbs tied to four water buffalos that moved in different directions and saw wild dogs eat the prisoners' torn-away limbs.


    He escaped after killing several guards, leaving 150 other prisoners behind, and returned with U.S. forces to find only 60 survivors.


    He served a second ``revenge tour'' in Vietnam in which he ``took out'' 165 enemy soldiers.


    He was wounded three times, including shrapnel wounds to the head and gunshot wounds to his back and hip.

    Source: Ayer Public Spirit


    http://news.bostonherald.com/localRe...rticleid=38744
    (more related articles available on this page).

    Feds probe phony POW's claims of earning medals
    By Tom Farmer
    Friday, August 6, 2004

    State officials yesterday confirmed a Boston Herald report that a former Marine from Groton was never a Vietnamese prisoner of war as they turned the matter over to the FBI in Boston for investigation.

    Donald S. Weikel, 56, also claims he is a recipient of the Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts, which the Marine Corps has stated he was never awarded.

    ``He was not a POW,'' said Thomas G. Kelley, secretary of the Massachusetts Department of Veterans Services and a recipient of the Medal of Honor.

    Weikel was confronted by the Herald last month about his claims he spent four months in a Vietnamese prison camp before escaping, and that he was wounded three times during two combat tours of duty.

    Officials said Weikel did serve in Vietnam, but only during the spring and summer of 1966, not through 1969 as he claims.

    He is also under investigation for allegedly changing his official service record - or DD-214 - to show he was awarded medals he never earned. Altering the document is a federal offense.

    FBI Special Agent Thomas A. Cottone Jr., who works with the Congressional Medal of Honor Society investigating bogus medal recipients, said yesterday Weikel's case has been referred to an agent in Boston for investigation.

    Sources said Weikel is receiving VA benefits for a 100-percent disability but not for wounds he claims he suffered in Vietnam.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    Originally posted by DaSharkie
    I am not a Kerry supporter by a LONG shot, but I am getting really ticked off byt two things that keep coming out:

    1) Where were these people taht are going after his war record over the past 20 plus years of his political life? It is the same with Clinton (again I was never a big fan of the guy) but where were all of these people and critics of him over the span of his previous 20 plus year political life. I am not saying that they are lying, I just hate it when all of the little dtractors come out after years and years. It weakens their complaints and arguments.

    DaSharkie - I've heard some of these people in radio interviews - as long as Kerry was just a senator of reletively low prominence they were willing to let it slide. When he hobbled to the front of the 2004 lame dog pack then they decided to let their story be known.

    I forget who it was, but in 1971 one of these people debated Kerry based on kerry's "WAR CRIMES" testimoney, had the debate on TV and basically handed Kerry his ***.

    This may sound cynical, because for the most part I believe these swift boat vets against Kerry. But if you are going to put a tell all book out, will it sell better when its about a backwater senator, or will it sell more when it's about a presidential candidate?

    I'm sure that they have the truth on their side, and facts triple checked and quadruple documented. One of these people is a trial lawyer, who knows all about libel and slander.

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    Former FBI Agent Warns Swift Boat Vets

    http://www.townhall.com/columnists/g...20040810.shtml
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    O'Neill's book says Kerry "would revisit ambush locations for re-enacting combat scenes where he would portray the hero, catching it all on film. Kerry would take movies of himself walking around in combat gear, sometimes dressed as an infantryman walking resolutely through the terrain. He even filmed mock interviews of himself narrating his exploits. A joke circulated among Swiftees was that Kerry left Vietnam early not because he received three Purple Hearts, but because he had recorded enough film of himself to take home for his planned political campaigns."

    "On February 28, 1969, now in charge of PCF 94, Kerry came under fire from an enemy location on the shore. The crew's gunner returned fire, hitting and wounding the lone gunman. Kerry directed the boat to charge the enemy position. Beaching his boat, Kerry jumped off, chased the wounded insurgent behind a thatched hutch, and killed him. Kerry and his crew returned within days, armed with a Super 8 video camera he had purchased at the post exchange at Cam Ranh Bay, and reenacted the skirmish on film."

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=39683
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    Kerry would take movies of himself walking around in combat gear, sometimes dressed as an infantryman walking resolutely through the terrain. He even filmed mock interviews of himself narrating his exploits.
    If this is true, it is absolutely vile and putrid let alone dishonorable. And he accused others of revelling in the death of the enemy.
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    Are we going to have to revise our history books?

    Seeing it was thought nixon didn't send any military into cambodia until april of 1971, I guess no one knew including Kerry's entire chain of command what he was up to in Vietnam..

    Douglas Brinkley, who has unique access to the candidate's wartime journals.

    "Kerry went into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions. He had a run dropping off US Navy Seals, Green Berets and CIA guys." The missions were not armed attacks on Cambodia, said Mr Brinkley, who did not include the clandestine missions in his wartime biography of Mr Kerry, Tour of Duty.
    http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/ma...08/13/wus13.xml
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    Republican-funded Group Attacks Kerry's War Record

    Although the word "Republican" does not appear in the ad, the group's financing is highly partisan. The source of the Swift Boat group's money wasn't known when it first surfaced, but a report filed July 15 with the Internal Revenue Services now shows its initial funding came mainly from a Houston home builder, Bob R. Perry, who has also given millions to the Republican party and Republican candidates, mostly in Texas, including President Bush and Republican Majority Leader Tom DeLay, whose district is near Houston
    In an Aug. 10 opinion piece in the conservative Wall Street Journal , Rassmann (a Republican himself) wrote that the ad was "launched by people without decency" who are "lying" and "should hang their heads in shame."
    Fact Check is a reputable non partisan website, that exposes the lies and untruths that are delivered up daily basis in politics, both Republican and Democrat
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    Regardless of who funded the advertisement, it is the right of these guys to say what they feel and think, especially at this level. There are people on the other side that do the same thing, as it is their right. If you have someone espousing their record as a warrior and people do not feel that this is true, they have an obligation to say so. Truth, not rhetoric is necessary to make a decision as to who is the best person to be elected as the leader of the United States of America. In order to make that decision, one needs to hear all sides of a discussion and debate.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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    Random thoughts:

    1. I know S/A Cottone personally. He is one of the finest and most committed men you will ever meet.

    2. Doesn't every FD have the guy who does nothing, then rubs dirt and ash on his face and stands around trying to get their picture on TV or in the paper? Reminds me of Kerry.

    3. With all due respect, there were alot more heroes in Viet Nam than the deceased heroes on the wall.

  20. #20
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    2. Doesn't every FD have the guy who does nothing, then rubs dirt and ash on his face and stands around trying to get their picture on TV or in the paper? Reminds me of Kerry.
    Yeah? Well, at least HE showed up for the fire.

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    In listening to some of the swift boats veterans testimony, Kerry turned tail and ran initially during one of his "rescues". That's how he lost someone overboard that he had to save. The rest of the boats in the crew stayed at a boat that had been rpg's.

    After trashing George Sr and Bob Doles WWII heroics, those on the left side of the fence are being extremely hypocritical by elevating Kerry's dubious service. 200 Swift boat vets, including all the officers who served along Kerry, can't be wrong.

    All of this is smoke screen anyway. As someone who missed 75% of his Senate Intelligence Committee meetings, including ALL of the meetings in the year after 9/11/2001 he needs to deflect attention from his dismal record in the Senate. When you are rated to the left of even Teddy (I lost my heart in chappaquidic) Kennedy, you can't run on your record.

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    Yeah? Well, at least HE showed up for the fire.

    Keep Drinking the Kool-Aid, Patsy. Your Boy is going down in flames in November. That's if he doesn't pull out prior to the Election due to this Scandal.

    The Man is a LIAR.
    The Man is a FRAUD.
    The Man is a FLIP FLOPPER.


    "I actually did vote for the 87 Billion Dollars, before I voted against it!" - John "F--king" Kerry, 2003.

    "No War For Ketchup!"

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