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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Not a distraction at all. But it proves the point that not even a law enforcement officer knows all of the laws; hence ignorance of the law is an excuse.
    Yea, as soon as a cop is running an ISP, this crap would be relevant.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    True, but I would expect a leading IT security guy to know about leading IT security laws. It's his job after all.
    Problem is there are so many. And even if you know the law and cover your bases you could still be charged. You would think law enforcement folks would know the laws as well, yet they screw up on them all the time. People are falsely arrested and falsely accused all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Yea, as soon as a cop is running an ISP, this crap would be relevant.
    Point being there, is said cop couldn't even properly interpret the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It clearly states that an ISP can view data in transit or at rest within the facility. I see the law has been written and provides a little more clarification on some points.


    It's clear, although you attempt to select parts that only you want to use. I though the point was whether or not I know the law. Interpretation was not the question. If you are referring to an Intranet Service Provider, instead of an Internet Service Provider you maybe right, but every time I have seen the term ISP is used it referred to Internet. With that said it is illegal for the provider to access emails except in the course of quality assurance.
    As noted in the Law:

    (i) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for an operator of a switchboard, or an officer, employee, or agent of a provider of wire or electronic communication service, whose facilities are used in the transmission of a wire or electronic communication, to intercept, disclose, or use that communication in the normal course of his employment while engaged in any activity which is a necessary incident to the rendition of his service or to the protection of the rights or property of the provider of that service, except that a provider of wire communication service to the public shall not utilize service observing or random monitoring except for mechanical or service quality control checks.


    Did I mention one of my room mates received his Law degree while in LE, and worked for the La. AGO's Internet Sex Crimes Division? He since went to a tri-parish task-force. He travels the country instructing on the subject. If you are into IT security like you claim you may have even met him, but I doubt it. Not that you have meet him but that you are nothing more than an underachieving wannabe geek, with no more desire than to Google of wiki. The point of this is I have more direct resources than you will ever have.

  5. #205
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    Posted by Acklan
    Did I mention one of my room mates received his Law degree while in LE, and worked for the La. AGO's Internet Sex Crimes Division? He since went to a tri-parish task-force. He travels the country instructing on the subject. If you are into IT security like you claim you may have even met him, but I doubt it. Not that you have meet him but that you are nothing more than an underachieving wannabe geek, with no more desire than to Google of wiki. The point of this is I have more direct resources than you will ever have.
    A baboon has more direct sources and intelligence than our strawfilled nemesis....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Point being there, is said cop couldn't even properly interpret the law.
    Point being if you own an ISP you should know the law. Again, ignorance is not a defense.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    A baboon has more direct sources and intelligence than our strawfilled nemesis....
    Aye captain, aye. He be a blithering idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    It's clear, although you attempt to select parts that only you want to use. I though the point was whether or not I know the law. Interpretation was not the question. If you are referring to an Intranet Service Provider, instead of an Internet Service Provider you maybe right, but every time I have seen the term ISP is used it referred to Internet. With that said it is illegal for the provider to access emails except in the course of quality assurance.
    If you are an in house service provider (what you are calling an intranet) you are still a service provider and a re covered by the same rules. In fact in house folks have even greater latitude as they actually own the systems and the data that resides on them. An ISP in the conduct of doing business can look at and view the data you send. If in the course of so doing they discover illegal activity they must report the issue to law enforcement. Then there will be warrants issued and everything you do will be watched.

    But this is the best "I though the point was whether or not I know the law. Interpretation was not the question." The point is exactly interpretation. If a person in law enforcement cannot interpret the laws then how is the common lay person supposed to know the laws.

    Again, ignorance of the law is an excuse. Which is why just because someone is a convicted felon doesn't mean they are not worthy of the job. In fact, many of the best IT security folks are convicted felons. Try looking up Kevin Mitnick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    Aye captain, aye. He be a blithering idiot.
    "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."
    ó Socrates

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Again, ignorance of the law is an excuse. Which is why just because someone is a convicted felon doesn't mean they are not worthy of the job. In fact, many of the best IT security folks are convicted felons. Try looking up Kevin Mitnick.
    Does this explain how you came to your current job? I will stick with my felon free fire station.


    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."
    ó Socrates
    Did you not recently call another member a "chucklehead" when you could not come up with a clever retort?

    HELLO POT!

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Again, ignorance of the law is an excuse. Which is why just because someone is a convicted felon doesn't mean they are not worthy of the job. In fact, many of the best IT security folks are convicted felons. Try looking up Kevin Mitnick.
    Are you really going to continue this idiotic ISP discussion?

    WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT AN IT JOB!

    Are you advocating that an arsonist would make the best firefighter?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  12. #212
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."
    — Socrates
    Here, this one is for you...

    "Behind every argument is someone's ignorance." - Louis D. Brandeis

    Here's another one...

    "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." - Unknown
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    That isn't the issue.

    You pick one very rare type of felony conviction to make a point. What about a murderer? What about a child molester? What about a rapist?

    This sexting example is nonsense. Okay, there are 5 people in the entire US actually convicted of this, and most are winning on appeal.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_503217.html

    They can ask, but how do you keep it FAIR and objective. How does one person with a rape conviction get accepted and another not. Based on what they SAY during an interview? So, the best liar gets a shot.

    A clean record can be checked without relying on this person's buddies.

    So, there should be no consequences in life for bad actions? You pay your time in jail and then should be given access to people's belongings, their homes, their children, their compromised condition????
    1) It isn't? What are we discussing then? I was trying to establish that a felony conviction/record does not automatically make a candidate less worthy than another.

    2) That was simply an example many could relate to since it has been in the news so much.

    Maybe I am being naive but I just assumed everybody realized our legal system wasn't perfect. Sometimes innocent people get charged and convicted. Sometimes people plea guilty or no contest because they simply don't have the resources to fight it. Sometimes people are given poor legal advice. Sometimes prosecutors and LE officers are less concerned with justice than they are with their own reputation and record.

    3) To me the details would make the difference. For example, a young man can be charged with statutory rape even though he was having consensual sex with this girlfriend. Or maybe she lied to him about her age and he didn't know how old she was. There is any number of scenarious that can play out. All I'm saying is take the circumstances into consideration before enforcing an arbitrary rule.

    4) Right, so in essence you would rather rely on people who don't know the individual or don't have any interest whatsoever in what type of person they really are.

    5) Of course there should be consequences! But, what is appropriate? How long should a mistake be held against a person?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    I'm only going to post in this thread, this one time, and not again. I have my reasons.

    FirefighterBo..... I'm 95% on your side on this. There are felons that made a one time mistake. They did their time, moved on, have been morally, sociably, law abiding citizens. If you didn't check their records, you may not have even known they were convicted of a felony.

    There are felons who are/were convicted on circumstances, that were mitigated because of the charge. Most of these did not need to be felony convictions, but were. Call it "positioning", as it were through those in the legal field, looking to move up, or get points.

    I don't believe ALL felons should be punished twice. Once by the courts, and then by the main stream public, or those looking to hire a good candidate, for any job. To me, that is double jeopardy, and unwarranted.

    Should we open the flood gates for ALL felons.... ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! Most felons have a sorted history with law enforcement. Those that do, are out of luck. The few with no history, and a single felony conviction, and 15+ years of nothing, not even a speeding ticket, should be given a second chance. Who knows, that guy may be the one to save your life, sacrifice his, or save somebody elses. You NEVER KNOW!!!

    You can rip this apart, or me. Doesn't matter. I will not reply.

    FM1
    I appreciate your thoughts and agree wholeheartedly...

  15. #215
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    2) That was simply an example many could relate to since it has been in the news so much.
    I doubt that anyone on these boards can relate to that example.

    Maybe I am being naive but I just assumed everybody realized our legal system wasn't perfect. Sometimes innocent people get charged and convicted. Sometimes people plea guilty or no contest because they simply don't have the resources to fight it. Sometimes people are given poor legal advice. Sometimes prosecutors and LE officers are less concerned with justice than they are with their own reputation and record.
    You would compound the problem of an imperfect system by then having a group of firefighters sit in judgement of our legal system. If a group of firefighters can be so freakin accurate, then why have a legal system to begin with?

    There are many ways to appeal a conviction. A firefighter hiring interview is not one of them.

    3) To me the details would make the difference. For example, a young man can be charged with statutory rape even though he was having consensual sex with this girlfriend. Or maybe she lied to him about her age and he didn't know how old she was. There is any number of scenarious that can play out. All I'm saying is take the circumstances into consideration before enforcing an arbitrary rule.
    So, he just has to lie to the interview committee??? THAT is how you will find out the "truth"????

    Why on earth do you think a group of firefighters during the course of an hour long interview will discover the truth that a series of trials involving professionals in the law could not?

    Yes, you are naive.

    4) Right, so in essence you would rather rely on people who don't know the individual or don't have any interest whatsoever in what type of person they really are.
    I would rather rely on the legal system, as flawed as it is.

    5) Of course there should be consequences! But, what is appropriate? How long should a mistake be held against a person?
    Some mistakes cannot be made up for, I don't care how long you are in jail.

    .
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    1) It isn't? What are we discussing then? I was trying to establish that a felony conviction/record does not automatically make a candidate less worthy than another.
    It is real simple. Solicit your state law makers and have them amend the law that you are concerned about. When you start making exceptions you open the flood gate to politics and legal challenges.

    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    2) That was simply an example many could relate to since it has been in the news so much.

    Maybe I am being naive but I just assumed everybody realized our legal system wasn't perfect. Sometimes innocent people get charged and convicted. Sometimes people plea guilty or no contest because they simply don't have the resources to fight it. Sometimes people are given poor legal advice. Sometimes prosecutors and LE officers are less concerned with justice than they are with their own reputation and record.
    We all have our crosses to bare. This happens in all walks of life, but you have to have a line that cannot be crossed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    3) To me the details would make the difference. For example, a young man can be charged with statutory rape even though he was having consensual sex with this girlfriend. Or maybe she lied to him about her age and he didn't know how old she was. There is any number of scenarious that can play out. All I'm saying is take the circumstances into consideration before enforcing an arbitrary rule.
    The rule is not arbitrary, as a matter of fact it is cut and dry. Enforcing the "no felony" policy for one and not another is arbitrary.


    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    4) Right, so in essence you would rather rely on people who don't know the individual or don't have any interest whatsoever in what type of person they really are.
    No, I believe he, and I agree, is saying that if you have a felony you should not be a FF or medic.

    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    5) Of course there should be consequences! But, what is appropriate? How long should a mistake be held against a person?
    Equal treatment for all candidates. If it is good for one it should be good for all, or scrap the entire requirement for everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Are you really going to continue this idiotic ISP discussion?

    WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT AN IT JOB!

    Are you advocating that an arsonist would make the best firefighter?
    You fail to grasp the concept. People can commit felonies without even knowing they are committing felonies. Additionally the legal system is not perfect.

    We are talking about a blue collar job; not a job that concerns national security. Some felons are actually very responsible citizens in the society; more responsible than some of those who actually get hired.

    And in reality, arsonist would make good fire fighters. To know how to put the fire out you need to how to start it. I am not advocating allowing them into the fire service. Then again, it might depend on the situation concerning the arson. Take for instance the person who starts a fire to burn some brush and it gets away from them. Some over zealous prosecutor charges arson and wins. Is this person really a threat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    1) It isn't? What are we discussing then? I was trying to establish that a felony conviction/record does not automatically make a candidate less worthy than another.

    2) That was simply an example many could relate to since it has been in the news so much.

    Maybe I am being naive but I just assumed everybody realized our legal system wasn't perfect. Sometimes innocent people get charged and convicted. Sometimes people plea guilty or no contest because they simply don't have the resources to fight it. Sometimes people are given poor legal advice. Sometimes prosecutors and LE officers are less concerned with justice than they are with their own reputation and record.

    3) To me the details would make the difference. For example, a young man can be charged with statutory rape even though he was having consensual sex with this girlfriend. Or maybe she lied to him about her age and he didn't know how old she was. There is any number of scenarious that can play out. All I'm saying is take the circumstances into consideration before enforcing an arbitrary rule.

    4) Right, so in essence you would rather rely on people who don't know the individual or don't have any interest whatsoever in what type of person they really are.

    5) Of course there should be consequences! But, what is appropriate? How long should a mistake be held against a person?
    Very good points. Well thought out post.

  19. #219
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    Scarecrow states
    And in reality, arsonist would make good fire fighters. To know how to put the fire out you need to how to start it. I am not advocating allowing them into the fire service. Then again, it might depend on the situation concerning the arson. Take for instance the person who starts a fire to burn some brush and it gets away from them. Some over zealous prosecutor charges arson and wins. Is this person really a threat?
    You have truly crossed a line here. The person who starts a fire to burn brush and has it get away from him isn't the threat... you and your moronic point of view is.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-19-2010 at 09:10 AM.
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    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    You fail to grasp the concept. People can commit felonies without even knowing they are committing felonies. Additionally the legal system is not perfect.
    There is no concept to grasp. There is no way you can commit a felony level crime without knowing you were breaking the law. Forget the exotic world of IT. Here are the 20 most common felonies.

    What are the most common felonies committed in the US? What are common punishments for these felonies? A list of the 20 most common felonies in the US.

    (1) Drug abuse violations 1,841,182
    (2) Driving while Intoxicated 1,427,494 (aka Felony DUI)
    (3) Property crime 1,610,088 (includes burglary, larceny, theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson.)
    (4) Larceny-theft 1,172,762
    (5) Assault 1,305,693
    (6) Disorderly conduct 709,105
    (7) Liquor laws 633,654
    (8) Violent crime 597,447 (including murder, non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault.
    (9) Drunkenness 589,402
    (10) Aggravated assault 433,945
    (11) Burglary 303,853
    (12) Vandalism 291,575
    (13) Fraud 252,873
    (14) Weapons violations (carrying or possession) 188,891
    (15) Curfew and loitering 143,002
    (16) Robbery 126,715
    (17) Offenses against family and children 122,812
    (18) Stolen property (buying, receiving, possession) 122,061
    (19) Motor vehicle theft 118,231
    (20) Forgery and counterfeiting 103,448

    We are talking about a blue collar job; not a job that concerns national security. Some felons are actually very responsible citizens in the society; more responsible than some of those who actually get hired.
    You are also talking about a job in public safety, involving access to private property and compromised patients. It's a position that requires some baseline level of trust from the public. If you start hiring felons, then the public will start to lose faith.

    Your comment about these convicts being "responsible citizens", even more responsible to those that were hired is an idiotic claim that you cannot possibly back up with any real data. Just a trolling comment.


    And in reality, arsonist would make good fire fighters. To know how to put the fire out you need to how to start it. I am not advocating allowing them into the fire service. Then again, it might depend on the situation concerning the arson. Take for instance the person who starts a fire to burn some brush and it gets away from them. Some over zealous prosecutor charges arson and wins. Is this person really a threat?
    This is truly laughable. The lengths you will go to to attempt to win an argument. Starting a fire takes no special knowledge. In fact, most arsonists are deranged individuals with no regard for property or human life.

    Arson is not an accident. In your pathetic example, it's doubtful it would be charged as "arson".
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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