1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Don't get hung up on semantics.

    You still haven't told me how a firefighter interviewer would determine that a person was wrongly convicted.
    Semantics? That's a pretty critical piece of information isn't it!!!

    Yes I have, you just haven't been paying attention because you are so bent on your agenda. And I'm growing weary of repeating myself, as I'm sure you are.
    Last edited by FirefighterBo; 07-20-2010 at 09:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    I'm beginning to think that "FirefighterBo" isn't actually a firefighter but someone who wants to be one and has some form of a felony conviction... based on his record of posts and subject matter...
    You would be wrong on both accounts...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    Semantics? That's a pretty critical piece of information isn't it!!!
    No, it's not.

    Yes I have, you just haven't been paying attention because you are so bent on your agenda. And I'm growing weary of repeating myself, as I'm sure you are.
    Really? So by the interview committee asking the convict they will magically discover "the truth" about his conviction. Very naive.

    Imagine if the guy who raped your (insert female relative here) got released from jail and was hired by the city because, according to him, "she lied".
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    I'm beginning to think that "FirefighterBo" isn't actually a firefighter but someone who wants to be one and has some form of a felony conviction... based on his record of posts and subject matter...
    Nah, this guy has never met real felons. If he did, he wouldn't be advocating this.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    No, it's not.

    Really? So by the interview committee asking the convict they will magically discover "the truth" about his conviction. Very naive.

    Imagine if the guy who raped your (insert female relative here) got released from jail and was hired by the city because, according to him, "she lied".
    The difference between someone who is currently dealing drugs and someone who sold some weed 10-15 years ago is critical. Oddly, the one who is currently dealing is probably record free.

    Again, your example fails to take into consideration the array of felony charges out there. It also fails to consider, as I related previously, the possibility of statutory rape which is anything but a black and white, cut and dry, issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Nah, this guy has never met real felons. If he did, he wouldn't be advocating this.
    Yes, I have met "real felons". Maybe that is the issue, seems our society really likes to label people. Of course there are felons, as in career felons, and there are people who may have committed a felony at one time in there life. I prefer to consider the individual as opposed to lumping everyone together into the same category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    The difference between someone who is currently dealing drugs and someone who sold some weed 10-15 years ago is critical. Oddly, the one who is currently dealing is probably record free.

    Again, your example fails to take into consideration the array of felony charges out there. It also fails to consider, as I related previously, the possibility of statutory rape which is anything but a black and white, cut and dry, issue.
    Your proposition assumes that a board of firefighters meeting with somebody for an hour are going to meet the "real" applicant and judge him better than months and years of evaluation by:

    1) The Victim(s)
    2) The arresting officer(s)
    3) The District Attorney(s)
    4) The Jury
    5) The Judge
    6) The Appeals Court

    Guess what, it is all about choices. Make bad ones and you will pay the consequence. A person that may have changed their ways will always be second to the person that didn't have to change his way to begin with.

    What is the better character trait:

    Becoming good at some point in your life

    or

    Resisting being bad all your life
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    The difference between someone who is currently dealing drugs and someone who sold some weed 10-15 years ago is critical. Oddly, the one who is currently dealing is probably record free.
    You can get hung up on this all you want (surprisingly like crowbar-boy), but it has no bearing on the discussion.

    Again, your example fails to take into consideration the array of felony charges out there. It also fails to consider, as I related previously, the possibility of statutory rape which is anything but a black and white, cut and dry, issue.
    Yea, you didn't answer. FYI, statutory rape is a crime.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    Yes, I have met "real felons". Maybe that is the issue, seems our society really likes to label people. Of course there are felons, as in career felons, and there are people who may have committed a felony at one time in there life. I prefer to consider the individual as opposed to lumping everyone together into the same category.
    Great, good for you.

    Next time you need a babysitter, why don't you call a felon to come over.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Your proposition assumes that a board of firefighters meeting with somebody for an hour are going to meet the "real" applicant and judge him better than months and years of evaluation by:

    1) The Victim(s)
    2) The arresting officer(s)
    3) The District Attorney(s)
    4) The Jury
    5) The Judge
    6) The Appeals Court
    Well, here we go again. Repeat, repeat, repeat! Well, you assume that the board meeting with somebody who has no record meets the "real" applicant? So, what you are saying is that an applicant who has been up front about his past on the application is going to suddenly start lieing about everything else during the interview! Really?

    Second, not all felonies have a direct "victim". Go back to the numerous lists posted and look them over. (i.e. curfew and loitering, disorderly conduct)

    Third, plea bargains do not go before the court and therefore there is no evaluation on the part at least three but possibly up to five of your list of six.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Guess what, it is all about choices. Make bad ones and you will pay the consequence. A person that may have changed their ways will always be second to the person that didn't have to change his way to begin with.

    What is the better character trait:

    Becoming good at some point in your life

    or

    Resisting being bad all your life
    Let me repeat, repeat, repeat myself. The only thing the lack of a record PROVES is that the person in front of you has never been caught doing something illegal. It DOES NOT PROVE they have been resisting bad all their life!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    Well, here we go again. Repeat, repeat, repeat! Well, you assume that the board meeting with somebody who has no record meets the "real" applicant? So, what you are saying is that an applicant who has been up front about his past on the application is going to suddenly start lieing about everything else during the interview! Really?

    Yeah Yeah Yeah, and the board meeting will meet the "real" applicant that the courts missed

    Second, not all felonies have a direct "victim". Go back to the numerous lists posted and look them over. (i.e. curfew and loitering, disorderly conduct)

    Still broke the law

    Third, plea bargains do not go before the court and therefore there is no evaluation on the part at least three but possibly up to five of your list of six.

    That's because they are not needed, because the defendant plead guilty


    Let me repeat, repeat, repeat myself. The only thing the lack of a record PROVES is that the person in front of you has never been caught doing something illegal. It DOES NOT PROVE they have been resisting bad all their life!
    I will still pick the guy that "may" have been bad over the guy I know for a fact has been bad
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    You can get hung up on this all you want (surprisingly like crowbar-boy), but it has no bearing on the discussion.
    What!?!?! How does that have no bearing on the discussion?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Yea, you didn't answer. FYI, statutory rape is a crime.
    I didn't say it wasn't. And my answer is simply that without details you don't know to what degree the applicants charge reflects his character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    Well, here we go again. Repeat, repeat, repeat! Well, you assume that the board meeting with somebody who has no record meets the "real" applicant? So, what you are saying is that an applicant who has been up front about his past on the application is going to suddenly start lieing about everything else during the interview! Really?

    Second, not all felonies have a direct "victim". Go back to the numerous lists posted and look them over. (i.e. curfew and loitering, disorderly conduct)

    Third, plea bargains do not go before the court and therefore there is no evaluation on the part at least three but possibly up to five of your list of six.

    Let me repeat, repeat, repeat myself. The only thing the lack of a record PROVES is that the person in front of you has never been caught doing something illegal. It DOES NOT PROVE they have been resisting bad all their life!
    Well, in the United States we have a standard of innocence. You know, "innocent until proven guilty".

    The people you are advocating for have been proven guilty.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Whatever, I'm tired of trying to insert rational thought into the hiring process! It's apparently impossible to reason with a bunch of block-heads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    Whatever, I'm tired of trying to insert rational thought into the hiring process! It's apparently impossible to reason with a bunch of block-heads.
    Have a wonderful life
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterBo View Post
    Whatever, I'm tired of trying to insert rational thought into the hiring process! It's apparently impossible to reason with a bunch of block-heads.
    What's rational about anything you've proposed?

    It's actually quite irrational to assume that a firefighter interview committee will make a better judgement in an hour long interview then a court of law where all parties are represented before a jury/judge and subsequent appeals.

    You are wrong, just flat out wrong on this.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Have a wonderful life
    Thank you, I will...
    Last edited by FirefighterBo; 07-20-2010 at 01:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    What's rational about anything you've proposed?

    It's actually quite irrational to assume that a firefighter interview committee will make a better judgement in an hour long interview then a court of law where all parties are represented before a jury/judge and subsequent appeals.

    You are wrong, just flat out wrong on this.
    I'm tired of explaining it. I feel like I'm telling a blonde joke to a bunch of blondes...

    (I'm a blonde so I can get away with saying that!)
    Last edited by FirefighterBo; 07-20-2010 at 12:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    No one said anything about being poor. Did I hit a nerve?

    The fire department is not a place for felons to have a job. Would you want to sleep next to a felon? You might not wake up. Would you invite several felons home for dinner? Would you allow your daughter to date or marry a felon? Maybe this felon just stole a car or did drug trafficing. Oh he will be ok now since he pulled 10 years of hard time. Probably did some bending while in there to entain some big buck.

    Crow you and this firefighterbo guy, who I think sells insurance, should just let the firemen run the engine and you guys mind the hoses in the yard with out breathers.
    Nope no nerve. I am just smart enough to see that our judicial system favors the rich. The rich can afford good lawyers who get them out of felonies. The poor can't afford the same luxuries. What is the difference between a convicted felon and a guy with a clean record that just didn't get caught.

    Only 2% of rapist are ever convicted UCSC Rape Prevention Education
    Only 16% of rapes are ever reported to the police. Rape Statistics

    How many crimes of theft are never solved? You have no way of knowing that the a convicted felon is any more dangerous than the guy who was never caught. In fact, I would say those who have never been caught are a greater threat. Reason being they still think they can get away with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Don't get hung up on semantics.

    You still haven't told me how a firefighter interviewer would determine that a person was wrongly convicted.
    I does an interviewer determine if any candidate is telling the truth? They don't.

    It isn't even about being wrongly convicted. It is about the circumstances, did you learn the lesson, are you remorseful, are you likely to do it again. I worked with a level two sex offender at one time, although I didn't know it at the time. Great guy, great worker, never a problem. Never called out sick, always on time. Believe it or not, some people make mistakes and learn from their mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    You can get hung up on this all you want (surprisingly like crowbar-boy), but it has no bearing on the discussion.



    Yea, you didn't answer. FYI, statutory rape is a crime.
    And how many 17-20 year old kids know the law? Kids are having sex at 10 and 11 years old. Do you think they know the law? Girl is 16, boy is 17, even if the sex is consensual he still has committed a felony. Two 16 years old have sex, they have both committed a felony. This is one of our countries worst laws going. Certainly a 40 year old having sex with a 10 year old is wrong. But how abut a 15 year old and a twenty year old? At some point the act is acceptable even though the law says otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I does an interviewer determine if any candidate is telling the truth? They don't.

    It isn't even about being wrongly convicted. It is about the circumstances, did you learn the lesson, are you remorseful, are you likely to do it again. I worked with a level two sex offender at one time, although I didn't know it at the time. Great guy, great worker, never a problem. Never called out sick, always on time. Believe it or not, some people make mistakes and learn from their mistakes.
    You know why he never missed work it was because he thought you was cute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    What is the better character trait:

    Becoming good at some point in your life

    or

    Resisting being bad all your life
    Or what is worse, getting caught vs not get caught?

    Kind of like driving in a line of cars all doing 80 and you are the one they pull over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Well, in the United States we have a standard of innocence. You know, "innocent until proven guilty".

    The people you are advocating for have been proven guilty.
    That's right, the police never fabricate evidence.

    And that innocent until proven guilty thing, sounds nice but in practice isn't always true. Juries can be swayed by things other than facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Or what is worse, getting caught vs not get caught?

    Kind of like driving in a line of cars all doing 80 and you are the one they pull over.
    Should have been the guy in the right lane driving the speed limit
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