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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I don't know, I don't work in personnel. I do know most job applications ask for criminal history and state this will not be an automatic disqualification.
    You answer is non responsive.You seem to have the answer for everything else, but you cannot speak to whether or not your department hires convicted felonies? I do not work in personal either but I can tell you a felony conviction disqualifies applicants from being employed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57
    Level 3 sex offenders should not be EMTs, but they could certainly be fire fighters.

    Your department does not run medical calls? There are still departments that do not require a EMT level to work on the street. You would feel safe having a violent predator in your home, or worst yet living in the same quarters for 24 hours at a time? I do not want my child or wife to be taken advantage of because someone in uniform showed up, and they trusted them, expecting the fire fighter to having been vetted and he\she turned out to be a predator.
    This goes back to the mentality that one is not responsible for ones own actions. The choices we make affects our lives, and as such have consequences. If you are going to act in a certain way you must understand you will not be accepted in certain positions of society.
    I find it strange you made an exception for sex offenders. Is there something we should know about you?
    Last edited by Acklan; 02-05-2010 at 07:32 AM.

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    I find it strange you made an exception for sex offenders. Is there something we should know about you?
    The sound of silence can be as deafening as the clap of thunder....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    You answer is non responsive.You seem to have the answer for everything else, but you cannot speak to whether or not your department hires convicted felonies? I do not work in personal either but I can tell you a felony conviction disqualifies applicants from being employed.

    I suspect they do. After all, being a fortune 500 company they have a very large number of employees. There are many with Security Clearances, I suspect some of them are also felons. However, since these are personnel matters, we don't know who has a record and who doesn't

    Your department does not run medical calls? There are still departments that do not require a EMT level to work on the street. You would feel safe having a violent predator in your home, or worst yet living in the same quarters for 24 hours at a time? [color=red]Are their felons in the military? [color]I do not want my child or wife to be taken advantage of because someone in uniform showed up, and they trusted them, [color=red]Gee i wonder if a Police Officer with no record has ever done that? The name Peterson seems to come to mind [color]expecting the fire fighter to having been vetted and he\she turned out to be a predator.
    This goes back to the mentality that one is not responsible for ones own actions. The choices we make affects our lives, and as such have consequences. If you are going to act in a certain way you must understand you will not be accepted in certain positions of society.
    I find it strange you made an exception for sex offenders. Is there something we should know about you?
    And people make mistakes, [color=red]NO ONE is Perfect!!![color] Convicted felons can get security clearances and work on matter far more important than anything a fire man or emt will ever see. People with security clearances have a much higher level of trust.

    Fire Fighters are great people, don't get me wrong, but they are not the perfect Saints you would like to think they are. There are many bad apples within the ranks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    You got the clap??? Sorry to hear that..
    Your insults show the true nature of your character and your reading/comprehension skills.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Fire Fighters are great people, don't get me wrong, but they are not the perfect Saints you would like to think they are. There are many bad apples within the ranks.
    I never insinuated they are perfect, but considering the position they are in, they need to be beyond reproach. We have all read of the fire fighter, EMT, or LE who stole a piece of jewelry from a call, was caught driving the equipment while intoxicated, or numerous other violation. They should, in many cases, never have been employee or appointed as members to public service. We should and in most cases do police our own.
    You loose credibility when you lower expectations of people that have very little room for error. I do not want or need perfection. I expect, and demand, honest committed members that also will expect and demand no less.
    I will take a play from your book and "Assume". If you do not expect excellence, honor, and a 100% commitment to this good work, maybe it is because you do not give excellence, have honor, and do not give 100% in your commitment to these good works.

    I do not work but I do good works in support of my fellow man. It is that simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    People with security clearances have a much higher level of trust.
    Not among the general public. Have two people walk up to someone's door wearing whatever clothes they normally wear for their job. The first guy says, "I have top-level security clearance and I need to come in your house." The occupant is going to close the door and call the cops. When the fireman shows up and says the same thing, more times than not (depending on the city/neighborhood)... they'll be let inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Fire Fighters are great people, don't get me wrong, but they are not the perfect Saints you would like to think they are. There are many bad apples within the ranks.
    They? You talk about firefighters as though you aren't one. Hrm... Regardless, no one said firefighters are saints but there is a vast area between saint and convicted felon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I suspect they do. After all, being a fortune 500 company they have a very large number of employees. There are many with Security Clearances, I suspect some of them are also felons. However, since these are personnel matters, we don't know who has a record and who doesn't
    So you are not a fire fighter, you just play one on the internet? I could care less about companies outside of public service. I doubt your fortune 500 company responds at 2 am to medical calls. I doubt the public has much to worry about someone that flies a desk, whether they are a thief, rapist, drug addict... In the Fire\EMS\LE community it matters very much.
    These are not "person matters" in the fire service. It matters very much as to the character of a person. I guess you find it convenient to be able to high "in the private sector". Not having to air you dirty secrets.
    You never did address the question why you are OK with sex offenders. Why not thieves, drug abusers, or murders? Seems odd you would pick that type of an offender. Sex offenders are generally looked at with the utmost dis-stain in our society. Even hard core prisoner draw the line at sex offenders, yet you are OK with this certain violation. Please elaborate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    So you are not a fire fighter, you just play one on the internet? I could care less about companies outside of public service. I doubt your fortune 500 company responds at 2 am to medical calls. I doubt the public has much to worry about someone that flies a desk, whether they are a thief, rapist, drug addict... In the Fire\EMS\LE community it matters very much.
    These are not "person matters" in the fire service. It matters very much as to the character of a person. I guess you find it convenient to be able to high "in the private sector". Not having to air you dirty secrets.
    Actually, being a fire fighter I know about the people in the fire service. Many are great people, then there are some I would not trust with the life of a goldfish. I used to sell equipment, so I had the opportunity to meet with fire fighters outside of our local area. I will say that along the way I met some very "colorful" characters.

    You never did address the question why you are OK with sex offenders. Why not thieves, drug abusers, or murders? Seems odd you would pick that type of an offender. Sex offenders are generally looked at with the utmost dis-stain in our society. Even hard core prisoner draw the line at sex offenders, yet you are OK with this certain violation. Please elaborate.
    Actually, if you go back and read, I said there is no room for a level 3 sex offender. A level one could be someone who was 17 having sex with a 16 year old. And you are right, sex offenders are looked on with great disdain; however, given this scenario is it justified?

    You do realize that people who have had a DWI can have felony convictions. People convicted of vehicular manslaughter are felons. And take the drug laws. Used to be someone with an ounce of pot was a felon, now you can carry a lot more.

    Here is a complete list in NY Misdemeanor Offense Classification
    Classes of Felonies


    Some of the more interesting ones

    patronizing a prostitute in the second degree
    promoting gambling records in the first degree
    receiving reward for official misconduct in the second degree
    rent gouging in the first degree
    rewarding official misconduct in the second degree
    riot in the first degree
    scheme to defraud in the first degree
    sodomy in the third degree
    sports bribe receiving
    stalking in the second degree

    I mean really...Do you think someone who tried to hire a prostitute or who gambles on sports is unfit for the fire service? How about someone who is involved in Sodomy? I'll bet there are many in the fire service who have committed sodomy.

    If you take a look at the comprehensive list you will see there are many on there that will not affect ones ability to do this job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cozmosis View Post
    Not among the general public. Have two people walk up to someone's door wearing whatever clothes they normally wear for their job. The first guy says, "I have top-level security clearance and I need to come in your house." The occupant is going to close the door and call the cops. When the fireman shows up and says the same thing, more times than not (depending on the city/neighborhood)... they'll be let inside.



    They? You talk about firefighters as though you aren't one. Hrm... Regardless, no one said firefighters are saints but there is a vast area between saint and convicted felon.
    You do realize that people like the FBI have those top secret clearances correct? I recommend you also look at the list of felonies. You will see that not all felonies are violent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    You do realize that people like the FBI have those top secret clearances correct? I recommend you also look at the list of felonies. You will see that not all felonies are violent.

    I don't care the only way the FBI is coming in my house is with a warrant. Fire department hell they could walk right in.

    Yes people do deserve a second chance. A good amount will change there lives. That doesn't mean they should be aloud in any kind of EMS.

    Felons are not aloud to vote. Now why is that? They have lost there trust with the public.


    Oh ya just in case you didn't know this already? The FBI doesn't hirer felons. Or well any company that you could use a secret clearness with? Just because you have it doesn't mean you can get a job.
    Last edited by Tipys; 02-06-2010 at 05:07 AM.
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    A seemingly unrelated article gets our PD and FD perspective on this issue...although we (both PD and FD) were formerly much more strict in what minor infractions are allowed...once was the day that a speeding ticket got you thrown out of contention...no joke. Now they have Police officers with gang ink.

    February 5, 2010
    NY Times
    City to Review Hiring of Chaplains After an Attempt to Carry Blades Into Jail
    By AL BAKER
    It was not clear what was more surprising initially to city officials: that one of the Department of Correction’s chaplains was accused of taking scissors and metal blades into a jail, or that the same chaplain had been convicted of murder.

    Both disclosures about the chaplain, Imam Zulqarnain Abdu-Shahid, have led the Correction Department to conduct a review of the circumstances of his hiring.

    While the review has not been completed, correction officials said Thursday that the department was aware of the chaplain’s second-degree murder conviction before he was hired, two years ago.

    Stephen J. Morello, a department spokesman, said background checks were required for all job applicants, including chaplains. Applicants also must submit to interviews and a fingerprint check. Candidates are required to “self-disclose” any criminal record, he said.

    But a conviction, even for murder, does not necessarily disqualify a candidate from a civilian job like a chaplain’s — though it does disqualify applicants who want to be correction officers.

    The only “civil service required qualification” for hiring a chaplain, Mr. Morello said, is to obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from the candidate’s denomination, which in the case of Muslims would come from the Majlis Ash-Shura of New York, in Wyandanch.

    Records show that Imam Abdu-Shahid was found guilty, along with three other men, of murdering a customer during a robbery of a supermarket in Harlem in December 1976. He served nearly 14 years in state prison, and was paroled from Sing Sing in 1993, officials said.

    On Wednesday, Imam Abdu-Shahid was charged with various counts of promoting prison contraband after he was intercepted with a pair of scissors and three metal blades in his bag as he tried to enter a jail in Lower Manhattan, according to the city’s Department of Investigation.

    He was held on $50,000 bond after his arraignment. His lawyer, James M. McQueeney, said the chaplain had reformed his life since his murder arrest.

    Asked if it was a benefit for the department to employ seasoned chaplains who might better relate to prisoners because of their range of life experiences, Mr. Morello referred to the civil service guidelines.

    “It’s not part of the job requirement,” he said.

    Mr. Morello said there were about 50 clergy members on the department’s staff of chaplains, representing different denominations. Some are full-time, salaried employees; others work part time. He could not say how many had criminal records.

    Imam Abdu-Shahid was not the first chaplain in the Correction Department to have his criminal past cited amid disciplinary problems.

    Imam Umar Abdul-Jalil was suspended in 2006 because of remarks he made about the White House being occupied by terrorists. Last year, he was among those disciplined in connection with a bar mitzvah party arranged in a city jail by a part-time chaplain, Rabbi Leib Glanz, for the son of a prisoner, officials said.

    Rabbi Glanz resigned last June, officials said.

    Correction officials knew Imam Abdul-Jalil had a criminal history when they hired him in 1993, eventually promoting him to chief chaplain. Mr. Morello, however, said he was unsure of the specifics of his criminal background.

    “I know he had a criminal record,” Mr. Morello said. As for the details, he added, “I cannot say for sure.”

    As for Imam Abdu-Shahid, Mr. Morello said, “His background was investigated when he was hired” and the necessary ecclesiastical endorsement was obtained.

    Dora B. Schriro, the new commissioner of the Department of Correction, has suspended Imam Abdu-Shahid without pay, threatened further punishment and called for a departmental review of the vetting process that allowed him to be hired in 2007.

    “I think all of the policies, involving allowing certain imams access to our prisoners, have been an example of political correctness run amok,” said Peter F. Vallone Jr., the chairman of the City Council’s Committee on Public Safety. “Clearly, some of these people should never have been allowed access to prisoners.”

    Law enforcement and public safety agencies generally bar those with criminal convictions from serving; Mr. Morello said that a felony conviction would prevent an applicant for a correction officer’s position from being hired.

    In the New York Police Department, there is a firm rule against hiring anyone — potential police officers or civilians — with a felony conviction, said Paul J. Browne, the department’s chief spokesman. While those with misdemeanor convictions might, in theory, be eligible for a job, it is, “highly unlikely” in practice, said Mr. Browne. If a misdemeanor conviction indicates a record of dishonesty, or domestic violence, it is an automatic bar, he said.

    The same is true in the Fire Department, where felony convictions bar candidacy, said Francis X. Gribbon, the chief department spokesman. As for misdemeanors, “You can get on with a misdemeanor, on a case by case basis,” he said. “Some misdemeanors are really bad.”

    Firefighting and law enforcement require skills far different from those needed by someone in the clergy, who minister to spiritual needs. A spokesman for the Correction Officers’ Benevolent Association declined to comment on the issue, saying that hiring was an administrative task, while pointing out that the discovery of blades being taken into a jail exposed the dangers officers face each day.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I mean really...Do you think someone who tried to hire a prostitute or who gambles on sports is unfit for the fire service? How about someone who is involved in Sodomy? I'll bet there are many in the fire service who have committed sodomy.
    Being an adult you can do what ever you want, legally. When you knowingly commit a felony you show a character flaw. Having worked LE for several year I can tell you, more times than not, those who commit felonies choose to. If you do not see a problem breaking the law you deserve to suffer the consequence of your action. If you do not like the laws you have listed to be classified as felonies I suggest you contact you state representative and have the laws changed. Until then I recommend those who want the job resist the urge to engage in activities that will disqualify them from service.


    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    If you take a look at the comprehensive list you will see there are many on there that will not affect ones ability to do this job.
    Again it is not ability is it about character. You really do not get it, do you?

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    Posted by Scarecrow
    You do realize that people like the FBI have those top secret clearances correct? I recommend you also look at the list of felonies. You will see that not all felonies are violent.
    I heard Bernie Madoff wants to be a member of Scarecrow's FD... and run for treasurer in their next election.
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    How ironic there is someone who is championing the cause of sodomy...shouldn't be a surprise condsidering that is how "it" was concieved!

    FTM-PTB

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    Default Hell No

    Some do not deserve second chances, pedophiles come to mind immediately.

    Why do they deserve a chance at THIS type of job.

    Sorry, some mistakes are not reversible, I don't care if you paid the price the courts decided.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    In Texas, you can't hold a firefighter certification--that disqualifies you from getting hired.

    Felons also can't vote or carry firearms. Is she on about that, as well?
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    He was hatched, not born. There is no way a human being could produce something sooooo stupid.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Some do not deserve second chances, pedophiles come to mind immediately.

    Why do they deserve a chance at THIS type of job.

    Sorry, some mistakes are not reversible, I don't care if you paid the price the courts decided.
    I agree whole heartily. If it is the law and/or rule of the land then being prohibited from certain activities is the price of your debt.
    How many of us know first hand of a person(s) that received a lessor sentences so the DA did not have to take the case to trial? I know of several.
    Point being if you want certain things in this life you need to play by the rules. If you want a job in public service do not commit a felony. It is not that complex.

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    Becoming a FF is not a right. It is a privelege. Why can't some people get it?

    Oh wait. I know why. Because they are only FF on these forums, not in real life.
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    George you give him too much credit. He's not even a firefighter on this forum. He's an impersonator.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Becoming a FF is not a right. It is a privelege. Why can't some people get it?

    Oh wait. I know why. Because they are only FF on these forums, not in real life.
    Oh, SNAP!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipys View Post
    I don't care the only way the FBI is coming in my house is with a warrant. Fire department hell they could walk right in.

    Yes people do deserve a second chance. A good amount will change there lives. That doesn't mean they should be aloud in any kind of EMS.

    Felons are not aloud to vote. Now why is that? They have lost there trust with the public.


    Oh ya just in case you didn't know this already? The FBI doesn't hirer felons. Or well any company that you could use a secret clearness with? Just because you have it doesn't mean you can get a job.
    Actually, the FBI can enter your house without a warrant if there is an active crime in progress. And you clearly don't know anything about security clearances. You don't just walk out and get one. There has to be a need and a reason for the clearance. Your company has to sponsor you to get a clearance, and they are expensive.

    One last thing, only 10 states permanently bar felons from voting. So yes felons are allowed to vote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    How ironic there is someone who is championing the cause of sodomy...shouldn't be a surprise condsidering that is how "it" was concieved!

    FTM-PTB
    Apparently you don't know that sodomy is oral or anal sex. That makes it impossible to be conceived in such a manner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Actually, the FBI can enter your house without a warrant if there is an active crime in progress. And you clearly don't know anything about security clearances. You don't just walk out and get one. There has to be a need and a reason for the clearance. Your company has to sponsor you to get a clearance, and they are expensive.

    One last thing, only 10 states permanently bar felons from voting. So yes felons are allowed to vote.
    Now an expert in the law.

    Truly amazing. You are wasting your varied talents here.

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Now boys, no personal attacks that is against the TOS and the WT will take action. Of course that is if some thin skinned whiny child becomes a tattle tell.

    However, some people don't seem to get that not all felonies are serious crimes like Murder, Rape, Arson, armed robbery, etc. Each case must be evaluated on its own merit. As I have stated, things that used to be considered felonies are no longer felonies or prosecuted as such, yet other things that used to be no big deal have become felonies.

    I am willing to bet that at least 50% of the fire fighters in this country have committed a felony at one time or another. These would be things like DWI, how many have you have said "I shouldn't have drove home last night."? How many have taken someone else's prescription? How many have knowingly written a check with the hopes or thought the money will be there before the check? How many have taken deductions on their taxes that they didn't really make? The list goes on.

    And wasn't there a case in Boston where two Fire Fighters died when the roof collapsed on them. One has a system full of alcohol the other had cocaine in the system. Wouldn't the use of cocaine be a felony. How about the automatic dismissal for committing a felony as well? Oh wait, our beloved Unions won't allow that.

    There are hundreds of millions of felonies committed each year that are never caught. Heck, how about barring people with poor or no credit scores as well.

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