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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Becoming a FF is not a right. It is a privelege. Why can't some people get it?

    Oh wait. I know why. Because they are only FF on these forums, not in real life.
    Well see George, what some aren't getting is that these are civil service jobs. And if the public at large thinks that every one should have a shot at these jobs regardless of social standing then so be it. Of course, if a court of law says that a person cannot have unsupervised contact with children then they will be prohibited from serving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    However, some people don't seem to get that not all felonies are serious crimes like Murder, Rape, Arson, armed robbery, etc. Each case must be evaluated on its own merit. As I have stated, things that used to be considered felonies are no longer felonies or prosecuted as such, yet other things that used to be no big deal have become felonies.
    The problem with merit is politics. Who decides which felony it a pass and which is not? It is not complicated, rather simple, if you want the job do not commit a felony.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I am willing to bet that at least 50% of the fire fighters in this country have committed a felony at one time or another. These would be things like DWI, how many have you have said "I shouldn't have drove home last night."? How many have taken someone else's prescription? How many have knowingly written a check with the hopes or thought the money will be there before the check? How many have taken deductions on their taxes that they didn't really make? The list goes on.
    Possibly. If they are caught them termination it the order of the day. I do not make exceptions for mistakes. Just because you have made it to the floor does not mean you have a free pass. Catch'em fire'em.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    And wasn't there a case in Boston where two Fire Fighters died when the roof collapsed on them. One has a system full of alcohol the other had cocaine in the system. Wouldn't the use of cocaine be a felony. How about the automatic dismissal for committing a felony as well? Oh wait, our beloved Unions won't allow that. There are hundreds of millions of felonies committed each year that are never caught. Heck, how about barring people with poor or no credit scores as well.
    As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you do not like the law, if you feel it is not appropriate contact your local law maker and have the law changed. In the mean time learn to live with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Now an expert in the law.

    Truly amazing. You are wasting your varied talents here.

    Not an expert at all, this is just common knowledge stuff. A previous poster was wrong on everything they stated and I merely corrected them. Go ahead, I dare you to use Google or your favorite search engine to actually find the truth.

    And I do know a little about security clearances as I held one in a previous job. They are agency specific and yo don't take them with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    The problem with merit is politics. Who decides which felony it a pass and which is not? It is not complicated, rather simple, if you want the job do not commit a felony.



    Possibly. If they are caught them termination it the order of the day. I do not make exceptions for mistakes. Just because you have made it to the floor does not mean you have a free pass. Catch'em fire'em.
    So a fire fighter who gets a felony DWI should be fired? Doesn't work that way though. See the alcohol and drug free rules say the employer has to give the employee a chance to rehabilitate. I believe you have missed the point though in this. There are many fire fighters and people in society who commit felonies all the time, they just didn't get caught.

    I don't take the holier than thou attitude on this. I also know that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I know people have committed felonies and had no idea they were breaking the law.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you do not like the law, if you feel it is not appropriate contact your local law maker and have the law changed. In the mean time learn to live with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    So a fire fighter who gets a felony DWI should be fired? Doesn't work that way though. See the alcohol and drug free rules say the employer has to give the employee a chance to rehabilitate. I believe you have missed the point though in this. There are many fire fighters and people in society who commit felonies all the time, they just didn't get caught.
    I do not know about your state but here you have to be convicted of your third DWI before it is a felony, and usually the first and sometimes second, are espionage if you complete court ordered treatment and community service.
    In my department you are required to posses a valid state driver's license. If you do not have one you cannot be employed.
    I agree that people commit crimes greater and lessor, which out being caught. That is their good fortune. I simply believe we need a standard that cannot be corrupted by the political system or at the least minimize it's impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I don't take the holier than thou attitude on this. I also know that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I know people have committed felonies and had no idea they were breaking the law.
    Neither do I. I simply want the best possible person working in my community. If he\she wants a job in government and wants to use drugs, or commit manslaughter, or any other felony let them be a grass cutter, ditch digger, ride the tailboard of a garbage truck, or be a politician. I do not want them in my house, my families house, or my friends house, when I must trust them with our lives. Simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    I do not know about your state but here you have to be convicted of your third DWI before it is a felony, and usually the first and sometimes second, are espionage if you complete court ordered treatment and community service.
    In my department you are required to posses a valid state driver's license. If you do not have one you cannot be employed.
    I agree that people commit crimes greater and lessor, which out being caught. That is their good fortune. I simply believe we need a standard that cannot be corrupted by the political system or at the least minimize it's impact.



    Neither do I. I simply want the best possible person working in my community. If he\she wants a job in government and wants to use drugs, or commit manslaughter, or any other felony let them be a grass cutter, ditch digger, ride the tailboard of a garbage truck, or be a politician. I do not want them in my house, my families house, or my friends house, when I must trust them with our lives. Simple.
    You do realize that is exactly what the Congress, President, and the cabinet members do. Look at that list of felons and tax cheats and tell me we are safe.

    I understand the need for quality people, I also understand that people make mistakes. I'm not sure it is appropriate to rule someone out just because they have a felony conviction. You need to look at the conviction, the circumstances, and determine if the person is still a risk. You eliminate a lot of very good workers buy taking the hard line. You also raise wages if you make the potential employee pool smaller. From an employee point of view that is great. From a taxpayer point of view not so good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    You do realize that is exactly what the Congress, President, and the cabinet members do. Look at that list of felons and tax cheats and tell me we are safe.
    Thank you for making my point, and I would not want anyone of them in my house.


    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I understand the need for quality people, I also understand that people make mistakes. I'm not sure it is appropriate to rule someone out just because they have a felony conviction. You need to look at the conviction, the circumstances, and determine if the person is still a risk. You eliminate a lot of very good workers buy taking the hard line. You also raise wages if you make the potential employee pool smaller. From an employee point of view that is great. From a taxpayer point of view not so good.

    I am looking at the conviction and circumstances. The are felonies, they were convicted, and that precludes them from being a FF\EMT\LE. I do not want them in the job, I do not want them in my house and I certainly do not want a convict in a trusted position.
    I would not say they are "very good" after all the are "convicted felonies", right?
    Which is better, paying high wages or paying law suits for allowing convicts to victimize the citizens? You get what you pay for. In my community we prefer to pay for excellence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    Thank you for making my point, and I would not want anyone of them in my house.





    I am looking at the conviction and circumstances. The are felonies, they were convicted, and that precludes them from being a FF\EMT\LE. I do not want them in the job, I do not want them in my house and I certainly do not want a convict in a trusted position.
    I would not say they are "very good" after all the are "convicted felonies", right?
    Which is better, paying high wages or paying law suits for allowing convicts to victimize the citizens? You get what you pay for. In my community we prefer to pay for excellence.
    The problem is that there are times when people have committed crimes and not even known they were doing it. How many times have you heard someone comment on a news story saying they didn't even know that was illegal? A good example of this is when an employee of a company gets information that the company is going to be bought or buy another company. Even though the employee is not directly involved in the negotiation or decision making process they cannot use that knowledge to buy stocks. Its called insider trading.

    Or how about this. A group of 20 year olds jump in a car and go out for a joy ride. While they are out they rob a convenience store. However, one of the kids wants nothing to do with it and stays in the car. When they are arrested he is charged and found just as guilty, even though he didn't participate in the crime.

    There are numerous incidents where people have been charged with crimes simply for being in the wrong place with the wrong people.

    Most people don't know that getting oral sex (Sodomy) from someone is a felony, yet they could be arrested and charged. There are volumes of laws, we have people known as lawyers who devote their lives to understanding and knowing the laws, the average lay person cannot possible know all of those laws. No person is perfect; and sometimes people get caught up in things that were not of their own doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    So a fire fighter who gets a felony DWI should be fired? Doesn't work that way though. See the alcohol and drug free rules say the employer has to give the employee a chance to rehabilitate. I believe you have missed the point though in this. There are many fire fighters and people in society who commit felonies all the time, they just didn't get caught.

    I don't take the holier than thou attitude on this. I also know that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I know people have committed felonies and had no idea they were breaking the law.
    Actually, that statement is NOT true. You are making a broad, sweeping generalization about the way drug and alcohol abuse is handled in the work place. You may just want to check your facts PRIOR to abusing your workplace policy on drug and alcohol use.

    You will find in almost all workplaces that forbid drug and alcohol abuse that rehabilitation is NOT required unless the employee comes forward and admits they have a problem PRIOR to being caught abusing the policy.

    And as far as commiting a felony without knowing you were breaking the law - - are you putting that notion forward as some form of defense for commiting a felony? Are you suggesting that a felony isnt really a felony unless you knew for certain it was when you committed it? Does this apply to those who are victimized by felons? Are their damages or injuries not real?

    Apparently asking people to actually take responsibility for their actions is asking too much in your eyes.

    With your liberal attitude towards felons, I wonder how often you entertain convicted felons in your home, put them in the care of your money and put them in a position to be responsible for both your life and the lives of your family. I would venture to say NEVER.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The problem is that there are times when people have committed crimes and not even known they were doing it.
    That has been acknowledged and cover, at least in my state. To paraphrase, ignorance of the law shall not be an affirmative defense. In other words if your did not know, you should have.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Or how about this. A group of 20 year olds jump in a car and go out for a joy ride. While they are out they rob a convenience store. However, one of the kids wants nothing to do with it and stays in the car. When they are arrested he is charged and found just as guilty, even though he didn't participate in the crime.
    This too is covered in most states by DAs, judges, and juries nullifying chargers or reducing them to lessor crimes. Either way, pick your friends wisely.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    There are numerous incidents where people have been charged with crimes simply for being in the wrong place with the wrong people.
    OK I see where you are coming from. Could you give me some examples. I was a Deputy for several years, which I mentioned before, and that line seemed to come up a whole lot but in the end it never seemed plausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Most people don't know that getting oral sex (Sodomy) from someone is a felony, yet they could be arrested and charged.
    Maybe we should have more emphasis on Civic in school rather than Spanish or liberal arts. Sounds like an education problem, either way refer to my first reply in this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    There are volumes of laws, we have people known as lawyers who devote their lives to understanding and knowing the laws, the average lay person cannot possible know all of those laws. No person is perfect; and sometimes people get caught up in things that were not of their own doing.
    Hhhmmm....... please see first response in this post. To paraphrase, ignorance of the law shall not be an affirmative defense. Too repetitive?

    Have a good day, GOOD SAINTS!
    Last edited by Acklan; 02-07-2010 at 06:29 PM. Reason: Bad spelling. Bad me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The problem is that there are times when people have committed crimes and not even known they were doing it. How many times have you heard someone comment on a news story saying they didn't even know that was illegal? A good example of this is when an employee of a company gets information that the company is going to be bought or buy another company. Even though the employee is not directly involved in the negotiation or decision making process they cannot use that knowledge to buy stocks. Its called insider trading.

    Or how about this. A group of 20 year olds jump in a car and go out for a joy ride. While they are out they rob a convenience store. However, one of the kids wants nothing to do with it and stays in the car. When they are arrested he is charged and found just as guilty, even though he didn't participate in the crime.

    There are numerous incidents where people have been charged with crimes simply for being in the wrong place with the wrong people.

    Most people don't know that getting oral sex (Sodomy) from someone is a felony, yet they could be arrested and charged. There are volumes of laws, we have people known as lawyers who devote their lives to understanding and knowing the laws, the average lay person cannot possible know all of those laws. No person is perfect; and sometimes people get caught up in things that were not of their own doing.
    Yea... all this blabbing.

    Besides displaying a fourth grade understanding of the law is really not relevant to the issue.

    If you are found guilty of a felony you should not be hired.

    There are plenty of citizens who are applying who managed to get through life without a felony conviction.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post

    Most people don't know that getting oral sex (Sodomy) from someone is a felony, yet they could be arrested and charged. There are volumes of laws, we have people known as lawyers who devote their lives to understanding and knowing the laws, the average lay person cannot possible know all of those laws. No person is perfect; and sometimes people get caught up in things that were not of their own doing.


    So by what you say, are you saying that a person which is the receiver [getting] is commtting a felony??

    What about the giver, What are they guilty of?

    So I ask, Are you an expert in this as well???? You surely must be, as you keep talking about it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Most people don't know that getting oral sex (Sodomy) from someone is a felony, yet they could be arrested and charged.
    Might I recommend updating your law textbooks. You might be suprised at what has happened in the past 30 years or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Might I recommend updating your law textbooks. You might be suprised at what has happened in the past 30 years or so.
    Maybe check with Dr Ruth or someone. Oral sex is not sodomy

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Maybe check with Dr Ruth or someone. Oral sex is not sodomy
    From Merriam Webster (its a dictionary)
    Definition of Sodomy

    Date: 13th century

    : anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex; also : copulation with an animal
    And from dictionary.com

    1. anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
    2. copulation with a member of the same sex.

    Oral sex is the classic definition. Damn those facts!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    That has been acknowledged and cover, at least in my state. To paraphrase, ignorance of the law shall not be an affirmative defense. In other words if your did not know, you should have.



    This too is covered in most states by DAs, judges, and juries nullifying chargers or reducing them to lessor crimes. Either way, pick your friends wisely.



    OK I see where you are coming from. Could you give me some examples. I was a Deputy for several years, which I mentioned before, and that line seemed to come up a whole lot but in the end it never seemed plausible.
    Its called guilt by association. Happens a lot more than you would like to admit.

    Maybe we should have more emphasis on Civic in school rather than Spanish or liberal arts. Sounds like an education problem, either way refer to my first reply in this post.



    Hhhmmm....... please see first response in this post. To paraphrase, ignorance of the law shall not be an affirmative defense. Too repetitive?

    Have a good day, GOOD SAINTS!
    I have heard the ignorance of the law thing and used to believe it. However, after looking at the volumes (enough to cover a wall) of law books I realized that there is now way in heck that anyone could possibly know all of the laws. Combustion that with the fact that lawyers devote their lives to knowing the law and anyone with a lick of common sense has to question that notion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    From Merriam Webster (its a dictionary)
    Definition of Sodomy

    Date: 13th century

    : anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex; also : copulation with an animal
    And from dictionary.com

    1. anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
    2. copulation with a member of the same sex.

    Oral sex is the classic definition. Damn those facts!!
    Pretty much the only time you are right is when you quote the dictionary.

    Keep up the good work!

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I have heard the ignorance of the law thing and used to believe it. However, after looking at the volumes (enough to cover a wall) of law books I realized that there is now way in heck that anyone could possibly know all of the laws. Combustion that with the fact that lawyers devote their lives to knowing the law and anyone with a lick of common sense has to question that notion.
    He is how it is stated in the Louisiana Revised Statue Title 14:17

    Ignorance of the provision of this Code or of any criminal statute is not a defense to any criminal prosecution.

    I question everything. If you want to play the game simply play by the rules. You want to be a fire fighter do not commit a felony. If you do not like the laws exercise your right and partition your law makers to change the laws.

    Addendum:
    I put more thought in to this subject since you continue to rail on it.
    In the case LAWRENCE et al. v. TEXAS the U.S. Supreme Court rules that these laws violated the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. The ruling, in effect, made all of these laws null and void in 2003. While still on the books in some states, they are unenforceable. I hate Wikipedia but for this discussion it works.
    So if you choose to get sodomized feel free to do so without fear. Sodomize your brains out.
    Last edited by Acklan; 02-08-2010 at 11:04 AM. Reason: More legal stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    From Merriam Webster (its a dictionary)
    Definition of Sodomy

    Date: 13th century

    : anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex; also : copulation with an animal
    And from dictionary.com

    1. anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
    2. copulation with a member of the same sex.

    Oral sex is the classic definition. Damn those facts!!

    Quoting a definition from the 13th century doesn't mean that the definition still applies legally today which is what you stated when you posted that sodomy was a felony and you could be arrested for it.

    Many states repealled their sodomy laws as many as 30 years ago. And a supreme court ruling in 2003 essentially rendered ALL sodomy laws in ALL fifty states unconstitutional. Therefore, sodomy is no longer considered a felony. And hasn't been for some time now.

    So feel free to keep the dictionary. But please update your law textbooks as they are clearly outdated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Quoting a definition from the 13th century doesn't mean that the definition still applies legally today which is what you stated when you posted that sodomy was a felony and you could be arrested for it.

    Many states repealled their sodomy laws as many as 30 years ago. And a supreme court ruling in 2003 essentially rendered ALL sodomy laws in ALL fifty states unconstitutional. Therefore, sodomy is no longer considered a felony. And hasn't been for some time now.

    So feel free to keep the dictionary. But please update your law textbooks as they are clearly outdated.
    Damn those facts!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Quoting a definition from the 13th century doesn't mean that the definition still applies legally today which is what you stated when you posted that sodomy was a felony and you could be arrested for it.

    Many states repealled their sodomy laws as many as 30 years ago. And a supreme court ruling in 2003 essentially rendered ALL sodomy laws in ALL fifty states unconstitutional. Therefore, sodomy is no longer considered a felony. And hasn't been for some time now.

    So feel free to keep the dictionary. But please update your law textbooks as they are clearly outdated.
    Well this just proves the point. What was once a felony is no longer. So why would you disqualify someone for this felony conviction?


    Thanks for the back up pal....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Well this just proves the point. What was once a felony is no longer. So why would you disqualify someone for this felony conviction?


    Thanks for the back up pal....
    You would think that falling on your face, with a bad example, would not be something you would gloat about. You were wrong, in that it is not illegal to sodomize your brains out. Unless of course you give or take money for the pleasure. Then that just makes you a whore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Well this just proves the point. What was once a felony is no longer. So why would you disqualify someone for this felony conviction?


    Thanks for the back up pal....

    Post deleted due to lack of interest in meaningless debate.
    Last edited by jakesdad; 02-08-2010 at 02:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    You would think that falling on your face, with a bad example, would not be something you would gloat about. You were wrong, in that it is not illegal to sodomize your brains out. Unless of course you give or take money for the pleasure. Then that just makes you a whore.
    Point is, there are many crimes that were felonies and no longer are.

    Let me ask this? In NYS it is a felony to drive drunk with kids under 16 in the car. This law went into effect this summer. So if you committed the felony before the law was put in place should you be barred from employment?

    The thing is, not all felons are hard core violent criminals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Point is, there are many crimes that were felonies and no longer are.

    Let me ask this? In NYS it is a felony to drive drunk with kids under 16 in the car. This law went into effect this summer. So if you committed the felony before the law was put in place should you be barred from employment?

    The thing is, not all felons are hard core violent criminals.
    Yes, you should be barred from receving a job in PUBLIC SAFETY.

    Hey, next time use cattle rustling as an example.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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