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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The problem is that there are times when people have committed crimes and not even known they were doing it. How many times have you heard someone comment on a news story saying they didn't even know that was illegal? A good example of this is when an employee of a company gets information that the company is going to be bought or buy another company. Even though the employee is not directly involved in the negotiation or decision making process they cannot use that knowledge to buy stocks. Its called insider trading.

    Or how about this. A group of 20 year olds jump in a car and go out for a joy ride. While they are out they rob a convenience store. However, one of the kids wants nothing to do with it and stays in the car. When they are arrested he is charged and found just as guilty, even though he didn't participate in the crime.

    There are numerous incidents where people have been charged with crimes simply for being in the wrong place with the wrong people.

    Most people don't know that getting oral sex (Sodomy) from someone is a felony, yet they could be arrested and charged. There are volumes of laws, we have people known as lawyers who devote their lives to understanding and knowing the laws, the average lay person cannot possible know all of those laws. No person is perfect; and sometimes people get caught up in things that were not of their own doing.
    Yea... all this blabbing.

    Besides displaying a fourth grade understanding of the law is really not relevant to the issue.

    If you are found guilty of a felony you should not be hired.

    There are plenty of citizens who are applying who managed to get through life without a felony conviction.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."


  2. #62
    Forum Member Jonnee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post

    Most people don't know that getting oral sex (Sodomy) from someone is a felony, yet they could be arrested and charged. There are volumes of laws, we have people known as lawyers who devote their lives to understanding and knowing the laws, the average lay person cannot possible know all of those laws. No person is perfect; and sometimes people get caught up in things that were not of their own doing.


    So by what you say, are you saying that a person which is the receiver [getting] is commtting a felony??

    What about the giver, What are they guilty of?

    So I ask, Are you an expert in this as well???? You surely must be, as you keep talking about it!

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Most people don't know that getting oral sex (Sodomy) from someone is a felony, yet they could be arrested and charged.
    Might I recommend updating your law textbooks. You might be suprised at what has happened in the past 30 years or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Might I recommend updating your law textbooks. You might be suprised at what has happened in the past 30 years or so.
    Maybe check with Dr Ruth or someone. Oral sex is not sodomy

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Maybe check with Dr Ruth or someone. Oral sex is not sodomy
    From Merriam Webster (its a dictionary)
    Definition of Sodomy

    Date: 13th century

    : anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex; also : copulation with an animal
    And from dictionary.com

    1. anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
    2. copulation with a member of the same sex.

    Oral sex is the classic definition. Damn those facts!!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    That has been acknowledged and cover, at least in my state. To paraphrase, ignorance of the law shall not be an affirmative defense. In other words if your did not know, you should have.



    This too is covered in most states by DAs, judges, and juries nullifying chargers or reducing them to lessor crimes. Either way, pick your friends wisely.



    OK I see where you are coming from. Could you give me some examples. I was a Deputy for several years, which I mentioned before, and that line seemed to come up a whole lot but in the end it never seemed plausible.
    Its called guilt by association. Happens a lot more than you would like to admit.

    Maybe we should have more emphasis on Civic in school rather than Spanish or liberal arts. Sounds like an education problem, either way refer to my first reply in this post.



    Hhhmmm....... please see first response in this post. To paraphrase, ignorance of the law shall not be an affirmative defense. Too repetitive?

    Have a good day, GOOD SAINTS!
    I have heard the ignorance of the law thing and used to believe it. However, after looking at the volumes (enough to cover a wall) of law books I realized that there is now way in heck that anyone could possibly know all of the laws. Combustion that with the fact that lawyers devote their lives to knowing the law and anyone with a lick of common sense has to question that notion.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    From Merriam Webster (its a dictionary)
    Definition of Sodomy

    Date: 13th century

    : anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex; also : copulation with an animal
    And from dictionary.com

    1. anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
    2. copulation with a member of the same sex.

    Oral sex is the classic definition. Damn those facts!!
    Pretty much the only time you are right is when you quote the dictionary.

    Keep up the good work!

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I have heard the ignorance of the law thing and used to believe it. However, after looking at the volumes (enough to cover a wall) of law books I realized that there is now way in heck that anyone could possibly know all of the laws. Combustion that with the fact that lawyers devote their lives to knowing the law and anyone with a lick of common sense has to question that notion.
    He is how it is stated in the Louisiana Revised Statue Title 14:17

    Ignorance of the provision of this Code or of any criminal statute is not a defense to any criminal prosecution.

    I question everything. If you want to play the game simply play by the rules. You want to be a fire fighter do not commit a felony. If you do not like the laws exercise your right and partition your law makers to change the laws.

    Addendum:
    I put more thought in to this subject since you continue to rail on it.
    In the case LAWRENCE et al. v. TEXAS the U.S. Supreme Court rules that these laws violated the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. The ruling, in effect, made all of these laws null and void in 2003. While still on the books in some states, they are unenforceable. I hate Wikipedia but for this discussion it works.
    So if you choose to get sodomized feel free to do so without fear. Sodomize your brains out.
    Last edited by Acklan; 02-08-2010 at 10:04 AM. Reason: More legal stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    From Merriam Webster (its a dictionary)
    Definition of Sodomy

    Date: 13th century

    : anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex; also : copulation with an animal
    And from dictionary.com

    1. anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
    2. copulation with a member of the same sex.

    Oral sex is the classic definition. Damn those facts!!

    Quoting a definition from the 13th century doesn't mean that the definition still applies legally today which is what you stated when you posted that sodomy was a felony and you could be arrested for it.

    Many states repealled their sodomy laws as many as 30 years ago. And a supreme court ruling in 2003 essentially rendered ALL sodomy laws in ALL fifty states unconstitutional. Therefore, sodomy is no longer considered a felony. And hasn't been for some time now.

    So feel free to keep the dictionary. But please update your law textbooks as they are clearly outdated.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Quoting a definition from the 13th century doesn't mean that the definition still applies legally today which is what you stated when you posted that sodomy was a felony and you could be arrested for it.

    Many states repealled their sodomy laws as many as 30 years ago. And a supreme court ruling in 2003 essentially rendered ALL sodomy laws in ALL fifty states unconstitutional. Therefore, sodomy is no longer considered a felony. And hasn't been for some time now.

    So feel free to keep the dictionary. But please update your law textbooks as they are clearly outdated.
    Damn those facts!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Quoting a definition from the 13th century doesn't mean that the definition still applies legally today which is what you stated when you posted that sodomy was a felony and you could be arrested for it.

    Many states repealled their sodomy laws as many as 30 years ago. And a supreme court ruling in 2003 essentially rendered ALL sodomy laws in ALL fifty states unconstitutional. Therefore, sodomy is no longer considered a felony. And hasn't been for some time now.

    So feel free to keep the dictionary. But please update your law textbooks as they are clearly outdated.
    Well this just proves the point. What was once a felony is no longer. So why would you disqualify someone for this felony conviction?


    Thanks for the back up pal....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Well this just proves the point. What was once a felony is no longer. So why would you disqualify someone for this felony conviction?


    Thanks for the back up pal....
    You would think that falling on your face, with a bad example, would not be something you would gloat about. You were wrong, in that it is not illegal to sodomize your brains out. Unless of course you give or take money for the pleasure. Then that just makes you a whore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Well this just proves the point. What was once a felony is no longer. So why would you disqualify someone for this felony conviction?


    Thanks for the back up pal....

    Post deleted due to lack of interest in meaningless debate.
    Last edited by jakesdad; 02-08-2010 at 01:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    You would think that falling on your face, with a bad example, would not be something you would gloat about. You were wrong, in that it is not illegal to sodomize your brains out. Unless of course you give or take money for the pleasure. Then that just makes you a whore.
    Point is, there are many crimes that were felonies and no longer are.

    Let me ask this? In NYS it is a felony to drive drunk with kids under 16 in the car. This law went into effect this summer. So if you committed the felony before the law was put in place should you be barred from employment?

    The thing is, not all felons are hard core violent criminals.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Point is, there are many crimes that were felonies and no longer are.

    Let me ask this? In NYS it is a felony to drive drunk with kids under 16 in the car. This law went into effect this summer. So if you committed the felony before the law was put in place should you be barred from employment?

    The thing is, not all felons are hard core violent criminals.
    Yes, you should be barred from receving a job in PUBLIC SAFETY.

    Hey, next time use cattle rustling as an example.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Yes, you should be barred from receving a job in PUBLIC SAFETY.

    Hey, next time use cattle rustling as an example.
    So???? Inquiring minds need to know... If it wasn't a felony before but now is, how do you know the person is a felon????

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    So???? Inquiring minds need to know... If it wasn't a felony before but now is, how do you know the person is a felon????
    Hmm.. i'll try to decipher what your wrote.

    Nah, *** it.

    If you are a convicted felon, you shouldn't have a job in public safey.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  18. #78
    Forum Member Jonnee's Avatar
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    Old Crow, if a applicant for the fire department has any of these convictions, do you want them in the fire service?

    I can tell you we sure as heck don't!

    If they commit any of these crimes and are convicted by a court of law, then they are terminated.



    VIRGINIA CRIME CODES (VCCs) FOR COMMON FELONY VIOLATIONS



    STATUTE VCC DESCRIPTION
    ASSAULT/PERSON
    18.2-32 MUR-0925-F2 Non capital first degree murder
    18.2-32 MUR-0935-F9 Non capital second degree murder
    18.2-47(A) KID-1010-F5 Abduct by force, deception, etc. without justification
    18.2-51 ASL-1334-F3 Malicious wounding-Stab, cut, wound with malice
    18.2-51 ASL-1335-F6 Unlawful Injury-Stab, cut, wound without malicious intent
    18.2-51.2(A) ASL-1336-F2 Malicious wounding - Victim permanently impaired
    18.2-53.1 ASL-1319-F9 Firearm use in commission of felony-(first offense)
    18.2-53.1 ASL-1323-F9 Firearm use in commission of felony-(subsequent)
    18.2-57(C) ASL-1342-F6 Simple assault on law enforcement, fire/rescue personnel
    18.2-57.2(B) ASL-1316-F6 Simple assault against a family member
    18.2-58 ROB-1201-F9 Robbery - Business with use of gun or simulated gun
    18.2-58 ROB-1204-F9 Robbery - Street with use of gun or simulated gun
    18.2-58 ROB-1207-F9 Robbery - Residence with use of gun or simulated gun
    18.2-58 ROB-1210-F9 Robbery - Bank with use of gun or simulated gun
    18.2-58 ROB-1211-F9 Robbery - Bank or banking type institution
    18.2-58 ROB-1213-F9 Robbery - Business
    18.2-58 ROB-1214-F9 Robbery - Street
    18.2-58 ROB-1215-F9 Robbery - Residence
    18.2-61(A,i) RAP-1129-F9 Intercourse with victim by force, threat or intimidation
    18.2-61(A,iii) RAP-1130-F9 Intercourse with victim under age 13
    18.2-63 RAP-1123-F6 Carnal knowledge victim age 13, 14-accused 3+yrs older
    18.2-63 RAP-1124-F4 Carnal knowledge/Statutory Rape Age of victim 13, 14
    18.2-67.1(A,1) RAP-1133-F9 Forcible sodomy, victim under age 13
    18.2-67.1(A,2) RAP-1132-F9 Forcible sodomy, by force, threat, etc, victim age 13+
    18.2-67.3(1) RAP-1121-F9 Aggravated sexual battery - victim under age 13
    18.2-279 WPN-5229-F4 Maliciously discharge firearm, missile in/at occup. bldg.
    18.2-279 WPN-5242-F6 Unlawfully discharge firearm, missile in/at occup. bldg
    18.2-370(A) SEX-3643-F5 Take indecent liberties with child under age 15
    18.2-370.1(A) SEX-3635-F6 Take indecent liberties with child-custodian
    DRUGS/ALCOHOL
    18.2-248(C) NAR-3042-F9 Distribution Schedule I or II drugs
    18.2-248(C) NAR-3043-F9 Possession w/ intent to sell, etc. Schedule I or II drugs
    18.2-248(C) NAR-3045-F9 Sale for profit Schedule I or II drugs
    18.2-248(C) NAR-3038-F9 Subseq. Dist., sell, etc Schedule I or II drugs
    18.2-248(D) NAR-3035-F5 Accommodation sale of Schedule I or II drugs
    18.2-248(G) NAR-3061-F6 Sell, dist., manuf, etc imitation Schedule I or II drugs
    18.2-248.1(a,2) NAR-3032-F5 Sell, distribute, etc marijuana, > 1/2 oz to < 5 lbs
    18.2-248.1(a,3) NAR-3033-F9 Marijuana Sell, distribute, etc - Over 5 pounds
    18.2-250(A,a) NAR-3022-F5 Possession Schedule I or II drugs
    18.2-255.2 NAR-3027-F6 Dist etc.controlled substance, marijuana etc. school prop.
    18.2-258.1(A) NAR-3016-F6 Obtain drugs by forgery, fraud
    STATUTE VCC DESCRIPTION
    LARCENY/FRAUD
    18.2-89 BUR-2221-F3 Burglary dwelling at night to commit larceny, other felony
    18.2-91 BUR-2213-F9 Stat. Burglary dwelling tocommit other felony or A&B
    18.2-91 BUR-2214-F2 Stat. Burglary dwelling to commit oth fel or A&B w/deadly wpn
    18.2-91 BUR-2216-F9 Stat. Burglary of structure to commit larceny, etc.
    18.2-94 BUR-2206-F5 Possession of burglarious tools
    18.2-95(i) LAR-2361-F9 Grand larceny - $5 or more from person
    18.2-95(ii) LAR-2359-F9 Grand larceny - $200 or more not from person
    18.2-95(ii) LAR-2404-F9 Grand larceny - Auto theft
    18.2-95(iii) LAR-2383-F9 Larceny of firearms, regardless of value, not from person
    18.2-96/18.2-104 LAR-2369-F6 Petit larceny - Third conviction
    18.2-102 LAR-2412-F6 Unauthorized use of animal, auto, boat worth $200 or more
    18.2-103 LAR-2339-F6 Shoplift, alter price tags < $200 (third time)
    18.2-103 LAR-2354-F9 Shoplift, alter price tags > $200
    18.2-108 LAR-2808-F9 Receive stolen goods-$200 or more
    18.2-111 LAR-2707-F9 Embezzlement, $200 or more
    18.2-168 FRD-2519-F4 Forging public record
    18.2-168 FRD-2535-F4 Uttering public record
    18.2-172 FRD-2520-F5 Forgery
    18.2-172 FRD-2521-F5 Uttering
    18.2-178 FRD-2743-F9 Obtain money by false pretenses >=$200
    18.2-181 FRD-2624-F6 Bad checks, $200 or more
    18.2-181.1 FRD-2699-F6 Bad checks, two or more w/in 90 days, >=$200
    18.2-192(1,a) FRD-2360-F9 Theft of credit card / numbers
    18.2-193 FRD-2512-F5 Forgery of credit card
    18.2-195(1) FRD-2635-F6 Credit Card Fraud >= $200 over 6 month period
    18.2-200.1 FRD-2805-F9 Fail to perform construction in return for advances, > $200
    63.2-522 FRD-2695-F9 Fraudulently obtaining welfare asst. - Value $200 or more
    TRAFFIC/DWI
    18.2-266 DWI-5449-F6 Driving while intoxicated - Third conviction within 10 years
    18.2-266 DWI-5450-F6 Driving while intoxicated - Third conviction within 5 years
    18.2-266 DWI-5406-F6 Driving while intoxicated - 4th or subseq within 10 years
    46.2-894 HIT-6604-F5 Hit and run - Driver fails to rpt. $1000+ damage to property
    46.2-894 HIT-6608-F5 Hit and run - Driver failed to stop/report/etc (victim injured)
    OTHER
    18.2-137(B,ii) VAN-2956-F6 Intentionally damage any property/monument >=$1000
    18.2-308.2(A) WPN-5296-F6 Convicted violent felon possess/transport firearm, taser
    18.2-308.2(A) WPN-5297-F6 Convicted non-violent felon possess/transport firearm, taser
    18.2-308.2:2(K) WPN-5281-F5 False statements on criminal history check consent form
    18.2-308.4(A) WPN-5303-F6 Possess Sched. I /II drug while possessing firearm
    18.2-308.4(B) WPN-5302-F6 Possess Sched. I /II drug with firearm on or about person
    18.2-308.4(C) WPN-5257-F6 Sell Schedule I or II drug while possessing firearm

    Attempts and Conspiracies-Use VCC Code for actual crime and change “F” to “A” for attempts and “C” 19.2-128 FTA-5019-F6 Fail to appear in court for felony offense
    for conspiracies. For example, the offense “robbery-street” has a VCC of ROB-1214-F9 which would change to ROB-1214-A9 for an attempt and ROB-1214-C9 for a conspiracy to commit this specific crime.

    Effective October 1, 2008

  19. #79
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    Does anyone know what came of this 6 year old case? If they were allowed to stay on the list or were removed? I'd be curious to find out.

    And I say there are plenty of other jobs that they can apply for, but being a FF is not one of them.

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    Detroit had the bright idea of hiring individuals with felonies and misdemeanor's in 1977. The we have to give them a break attitude was the administrations (Mayor, Clowncil and Commissioner) bright idea. Out of the 300+ they hired that year, 87 had some sort of criminal record. Within 4-5 years, everyone of them had been fired for crimes and/or drug use and sale. They had more than a dozen that were ripping off fire house's and personal vehicles while the crews were on runs. Everyone of them ended up in more trouble, jail or dead. Enough said on this subject.

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