1. #51
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    I agree that this could be
    I think that this dude ffjerry2000 is the one and same as the Internet troll Nick, Wild Weasel, pjrescue, rescueranger21...all the same person.
    ............what a BUNCH of HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOEY this poster is spitting out.
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
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  2. #52
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    Default Re: Patrick

    *sigh* I hate to prolong this, but...

    Originally posted by ffjerry2000
    can you explain how a 757 made damage on the first floor that is smaller than the plane itself. Where did the wings go?? They did not make any damage marks, we are to believe that the wings folded on the fueslage and went in??
    Do you believe that a plane would leave a Wile E. Coyote-style hole showing its precise silhouette in the side of a structure?

    Originally posted by ffjerry2000
    Is it possible to fly a 757 at 2-3 feet off the ground at speeds over 250 mph and not touch the ground.
    Thousands of aircraft do it at least twice every day - once taking off and once landing.

    (Okay, maybe not twice each day if they are taking off before midnight and landing after. Whatever.)
    --jay.

  3. #53
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    I'm British, I am from an island Nation that has been under attack for over 1000 years... I am an absolute cynic, don't trust anyone in word or deed until I check it out myself....

    But THIS Theory... the whole world is involved, myself included... if this had have been a conspiracy then they have me fooled. The UK Fire Service cannot even afford to pay the Ff's a decent wage yet we get given £millions of New anti Terrorist equipment... on the back of a conpiracy???

    Despite apparent holes in the US intellegence service in the run up to 9/11 our own Intellegece services are needle sharp, after all we have had 4 decades of IRA terrorism as 'practice' They have so far thwarted 3 terrorist attacks on the scale of 9/11 in the UK....is this all part of the conspiracy???

    Our own LFB Guys have been involved in some of these that have affected London, are we in the LFB now part of the conspiracy???

    The fact is any one of us can make coincidental facts fit any amount of theories... this is what is happening on the 9/11 conspiracy sites. For example...the explosions in the Buildings as it was collapsing...

    1. many thousands of people work in the building...don't you think by now that any one of those people would have reported "a guy in overalls came into our office on September 5th,opened the Ceiling and put a load of boxes/containers/sticks of 'Road Runner' TNT inside".

    2. I have a very close friend who works for the Port Authority, he was a fire & safety director in the Buildings, he was there on the day, he was their in '93 a thoroughly decent hard working family man....hardly the type to be cohorting with mass murderers. And if they all of a sudden stared doing stuff in his building telling him "Hey Pal, have an early day and forget what you have seen"...don't you think he may have said something by now???

    Come on... If you want a conspiracy you do not play it out in one of the biggest most diverse cities in the world during the morning rush hour.

    No doubt there are things about that day that we don't know about... that is part of life whether in a dictatorship or democracy... You know how you there isn't a Santa Claus but your 6 year old thinks there is... Life is often like that. One day when we are very old or after we have gone, the truth of that dark day back in 2001 will come out. But I bet the villain will still be the same villain as today and any information that was known by 'those in power' will be proved in hindsight to have been too little too late, an error of judgement, underestimation of the organisation of the terrorist ir whatever....

    But I don't think we will find that George Bush, Tony Blair (as much as I don't like him) Osama, et al... all sat round and planned this for the excuse to re-shape the world.
    Last edited by SteveDude; 08-22-2004 at 08:39 AM.
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  4. #54
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    my take on FFJerky2k's post and theory...

    da da da da dah
    da da da da dah
    da da da da dah

    Bull***!

    da da dah

    Bull***!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    I have to agree with the others on the site if you want to idle over conspiracy theories you need to go somewhere else. I have taken several courses from Embry-Riddle about Accident investigation and it is very possible for parts to fly off while in a steep descent. As far as the other questions they have already been answered.

    zach

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    Originally posted by oldman21220
    Take my word for it. 800 was not shot down by a cruiser. You don't cook off a Standard missle and keep it a secret, it would have leaked long ago. Man portable or something else, who knows.

    No way it could have been a MANPAD. The aircraft was beyond the Max Altitude for any MANPAD. The static elec in the fuel tank is extremley viable. Aircraft fuel manifolds come only in small sections and are held together by "wiggins fittings". A wiggins fitting is 2 male couplings w/ female sleaves that tighten to bring the fittings together and inside are 2 rubber gaskets and an aluminum fastener that is placed over the two joining manifolds. They allow for flexing and expanding. They do however...over time come lose and chaff the wiring that they are connected to. This wiring is from Fuel System Components such as...pressure switches, pumps and Mostly valves. I have found over the last 10 years MANY wiggins fittings that have failed and tore up the electrical wiring...in which could have resulted in a fire. 2 times in the last 30 years there was a complete "cook off" of fuel that was in a Fuse Tank of KC-130s. They did not blow the plane up because of the vent system and pressurization because the Fuse Tank is loaded into the cargo section of the aircraft.

    So this is why I don't believe that flight 800 was shot down. To me the failure of the fuel components makes good sense.
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    I've been looking for the right opportunity to share this with everyone.

    I have substantive evidence that Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" was actually written by Osama bin Laden as a way to rekindle flagging interest in Christianity as a worldwide religion. Why would he do that? Well, why do deer hunters support careful conservation of deer? Exactly, because they want to continue to hunt deer in the future. So by helping make the Christian savior a more sympathetic character (hence all that controversial blood), he is making Christianity more appealing to both its current followers and to the un-religioned.

    So, ironically, despite his status as perhaps The World's Most Outrageously Fervent Muslim ("I'm number one!" he says), bin Laden is actually working in the interest of thwarting a massive exodus of Christians into Islam, for fear that there won't be any bad guys left for him to attack, and thus he might actually have to go out and get a real job. Let's face it, OBL's skill set is not exactly the stuff of a monster.com success story; in fact, below is his resume:


    Osama bin Laden
    53 Evergreen Caves
    Rockpile, Afghanistan (or is it Pakistan? Don't you wish I'd tell you? Hee hee!)

    Career goals
    To attack infidels in both word and deed, to scoop out their intestines for the wolverines to devour, to stretch their skins upon the blazing rocks of the desert in praise to Allah, and to work in public relations for a firm specializing in IT support and wireless business solutions.

    Education
    al-Haagwash Elementary, 1972
    Aymash Ithed Middle School, 1975
    Ay Sukabig Thaym High School, 1979
    Bin Sikhn Khoeds University, 1983 (go Dunes!)

    Career experience
    2001-present World Enemy #1, al-Qaida
    1989-2001 Loudmouthed Extremist Consultant, al-Jazeera Television
    1986-1989 Turban inspector, Rappit Tayt Turban Co.
    1983-1986 Suicide bomber, Goboom Militia
    1983 Professional basketball player, Arabian League (cut due to contract dispute)
    Summers 1978-1982 Camel washer, Khalil's Dromedary Sparkle, Riyadh

    -----------------

    I know, I know, who'd've thunk it?
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  8. #58
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    Originally posted by VinnieB



    No way it could have been a MANPAD. The aircraft was beyond the Max Altitude for any MANPAD. The static elec in the fuel tank is extremley viable. Aircraft fuel manifolds come only in small sections and are held together by "wiggins fittings". A wiggins fitting is 2 male couplings w/ female sleaves that tighten to bring the fittings together and inside are 2 rubber gaskets and an aluminum fastener that is placed over the two joining manifolds. They allow for flexing and expanding. They do however...over time come lose and chaff the wiring that they are connected to. This wiring is from Fuel System Components such as...pressure switches, pumps and Mostly valves. I have found over the last 10 years MANY wiggins fittings that have failed and tore up the electrical wiring...in which could have resulted in a fire. 2 times in the last 30 years there was a complete "cook off" of fuel that was in a Fuse Tank of KC-130s. They did not blow the plane up because of the vent system and pressurization because the Fuse Tank is loaded into the cargo section of the aircraft.

    So this is why I don't believe that flight 800 was shot down. To me the failure of the fuel components makes good sense.
    Vinnie, this crash has always intrigued me. Truthfully, I have a hard time buying the fuel tank cook-off theory, but would agree that the MANPAD and the cruise missile thoeroies are not viable with the facts as they are known. Frankly, the government's (CIA) argument is ridiculous as well.

    Can you answer me two questions?

    1. What is the volatage in that wiring?
    2. Have there been any other documentable 747 incidents such as this? My problem with this theory is that the 747 typically travels hundreds of thousands of miles per week. Yet, they were not falling out of the sky due to fuel tank explosions. I am certian that there are safeguards, as you mentioned, that are designed to prevent a fuel tank explosion.

    Thanks.

  9. #59
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Can you answer me two questions?

    1. What is the volatage in that wiring?
    2. Have there been any other documentable 747 incidents such as this? My problem with this theory is that the 747 typically travels hundreds of thousands of miles per week. Yet, they were not falling out of the sky due to fuel tank explosions. I am certian that there are safeguards, as you mentioned, that are designed to prevent a fuel tank explosion.

    Thanks.
    I do not have a 747 tech pub but I would venture to say its 3 phase 120 volt 26 amp.

    I would agree with your #2 question. But there have been mishaps that have never happend before. Case in point is Air Alaska and the failure to maintain the rudder boost package.

    There are safeguards...the wiring is encased in a polymar and is a very safe design. But over a few miles of wiring is in those planes and the potential is there. Fuel cell maintenace is done on a schedualed basis depending on aircraft hours and or months whichever comes first. There could have been a breakdown in maintenance procedures...yes this happens mechanics are human. I worked in QA during my last tour....I suppervised and spot checked inspectors. On occations I found serious...DEADLY..errors. But they got corrected and without incident. Freak things happen alot to airplanes...we call them "gremlins".
    IACOJ Member

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    Default Hello!!!!!

    I think that this dude ffjerry2000 is the one and same as the Internet troll Nick, Wild Weasel, pjrescue, rescueranger21...all the same person.


    First off, I do not know who these guys are listed above. I am not any off them. Second thing, to those of you who question my loyalty to this county, go bite pipe. I proudly served my country for 4 years in the United States Navy. If I could do it again I would. I support our troops 110%, no matter where they are in the world.

    Lets all open our eyes here and look at some of the hard facts, evidence being hidden from us, investigations hampered with, not all the facts coming out. I dont think there was this much interfernce with the first WTC bombing, or Oklahoma City. Why now with 9-11?? What is there to hide??? Why havent the data from ANY of the black boxes been released? Why is video of the Pentagon crash not being released?? Video of the WTC was released!! Don't all of you want to know what happened???

    Oh and by the way, in FEMA's report of the WTC 7 collapse they say that the cause is still UNKNOWN!!!!


    FFJerry2000

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    Default FEMA Report

    Here is a quote from the FEMA report, sounds solid to me....NOT!

    "The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue"

    Sounds like they are guessing at best.


    FFJerry2000

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    Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue"

    That is not a guess. That is a responsible statement. Perhaps you should go "suck pipe".

  13. #63
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    Default Re: FEMA Report

    Originally posted by ffjerry2000


    Sounds like they are guessing at best.


    FFJerry2000

    Let's do a comparison of techniques.

    FEMA, Congress, FDNY, etc:

    Eyewitness accounts, video & film footage, photographs, structural & aeronautical engineers, historic data from prior structural collapses, schematic drawings & blueprints of the WTC.


    FFJerry2000

    A website run by...um, who is it again?


    Who's guessing here?

    I don't give my government carte blanche to do whatever, wherever. But I do think there are things they should be able to keep from me, for the benefit of our nation or of our citizens. Just because they can't tell me doesn't mean they're covering anything up.

    Find another field to spread your bullsh*t.
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    They may say that, but every engineering report will tell you it was failure of load bearing steel members due to heating.

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    Hey Jerry, get this through your head, because I won't say it again:

    I was standing next to that building when it collapsed, my fault totally. Warnings had been given due to the structure being compromised and transits trained on it showed it was failing. Due to the wind direction I was unaware that I had placed myself at it's base.

    There was no demolition. I know that, I was standing there. No explosions, nothing! It failed. Has it happened before? No. Has it happened now? Yes.

    Prior to Texas City had an Ammonium Nitrate carrying ship ever detonated, killing hundreds? NO. Prior to Bhopal India, had a chemical plant leak killed 8,000 people? No.

    Look Jerry, a huge highrise building collapsed due to an intense fire and the building's fire load, including a massive amount of fuel stored in it. I want the technical answers to the collapse and will wait a lot longer because conspiracy theorists like yourself do nothing but stand in the way. Now step aside and shut your festering gob.

    Love it or leave it!!!
    Last edited by E229Lt; 08-23-2004 at 09:40 PM.

  16. #66
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    Default You want the truth?

    THE REAL TRUTH ... Now hit the bricks TROLL.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    With all due respect Mikey, that's only about 10%, here's the rest:

    ALL

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    Angry Part you left out

    Originally posted by ffjerry2000
    Here is a quote from the FEMA report, sounds solid to me....NOT!

    "The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue"

    Sounds like they are guessing at best.


    FFJerry2000
    You conveniently left out the two sentences before that:

    "The loss of the east penthouse on the videotape suggests that the collapse event was initiated by the loss of structural integrity in one of the transfer systems. Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors."

    You see, the building had a number of transfer trusses in it built over top of an electrical substation with a large amount of diesel fule storage. A transfer truss is a horizontal member that carries columns from above. When the truss fails, the columns it carries fails. The building losses redundancy, the loads try to shift to other members which can't take them and the building falls in on itself.

    Troll your BS somewhere else assclown, you are way out of your league here.
    Thomas Anthony, PE
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    Default For legit information

    For legit information written by people who actually know what they are talking about, here are some sources for both the WTC and Pentagon.

    http://www.fema.gov/library/wtcstudy.shtm
    http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/bu...PDF/b03017.pdf

    I believe you can still request copies of FEMA Publication 403 which is the WTC Building Performance Study for free from FEMA, although I could not find a web link. The Pentagon report is available from the American Society of Civil Engineers for about $39, you can probably also get is from Amazon.com. Both are well written and actually easily read by a non-engineer.
    Thomas Anthony, PE
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    No, I am not a water rescue technician, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

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    FFjerry........You need to take your s#!t somewhere else. I don't think that you are a firefighter and if you were, I would hope that the guys back at your "house" would run you the hell out of there.

    E229lt, MIKEYLIKESIT, thanks for the links. Really brings it home what he FDNY and the people of NYC lost that day.
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    I am not sure to this day how much detail I can give away about an incident I was involved in while I worked for the military as a firefighter. Suffice to say that fuel pumps can short out and less than full tanks with good vapor space can and do explode violently leading to the virtual total destruction of the aircraft. So not only is that possibility feasile for flight 800 it could very well be the cause of that flight's destruction.

    FyredUp

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    Originally posted by FyredUp
    I am not sure to this day how much detail I can give away about an incident I was involved in while I worked for the military as a firefighter. Suffice to say that fuel pumps can short out and less than full tanks with good vapor space can and do explode violently leading to the virtual total destruction of the aircraft. So not only is that possibility feasile for flight 800 it could very well be the cause of that flight's destruction.

    FyredUp

    Absolutley Correct. Unlike the wiring...the pumps are not protected. The only this that keeps them from burning is that they are submerged in fuel. If they are not submerged in fuel then they will heat up real quickly and start a fire. For the most part they are located in a space called a surge box. This box is always full of fuel and keeps the pump from sucking air and overheating.
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    Originally posted by E229Lt

    There was no demolition. I know that, I was standing there. No explosions, nothing! It failed. Has it happened before? No. Has it happened now? Yes.

    I want the technical answers to the collapse and will wait a lot longer because conspiracy theorists like yourself do nothing but stand in the way. Now step aside and shut your festering gob.

    Love it or leave it!!!

    Exactly....

    I was working at the triage area on West and Vessey. We were told to move to WTC1 Triage area. We made it across the street and were stopped by a group of FDNY/EMS staff officers. The said the PD helo reported the tower was leaning and in danger of collapse.....2 minutes later it did. I too, heard NO explosions and saw no "sapper and miner" teams....
    all I heard was what sounded like a HUGE Fright Train and an earthquake chasing me......

    So...yes....just sew up that hatchet wound that you are making noice from.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 08-24-2004 at 10:27 AM.
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    Ya know what makes me sick. We still havent caught the guy who murdered over 3,000 people.

    There are people who think the holocaust never happened... Apparently the person who started this post is no different...

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    The 9/11 PCTs (Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists) certainly share a great deal in common with the we-never-went-to-the-Moon and the Holocaust-never-happened types:

    1. The gummint is all-powerful, swapping planes and passengers, planting demolition charges, faking cell phone calls from family members on Flight 93, hiding a 757 that took off from Dulles and replacing it with some sort of drone over a distance that I can drive in about 25 minutes. Cleverly fooling guys like the Montgomery County (MD) FFs I know who spent that day picking pieces of 757 out of the Pentagon.

    2. The gummint is all-powerful, suppressing all evidence to the conspiracy, and killing off anyone who would blow the whistle.

    3. Except, of course, Joe Schmoe and his web site. The superlethal NSA assassins are having a hard time looking him up with their black helicopters.

    4. Any detail that is slightly vague, any question that is not exhaustively answered, any statement or third-hand report that is in the slightest contradictory of another is proof of the eeevil gummint conspiracy.

    5. Any gummint report, no matter how nauseatingly detailed, no matter how many experts worked on it, is wrong/a lie/a red herring.

    6. Except for the bits which we can quote out of context to bolster our case.

    7. If it happened, it's because it's a conspiracy that starts at the top and involves every FAA, USAF, federal, state, county, local official, every technician, every... you get the idea. They're all sworn to secrecy.

    8. If any of these people die, of any cause, at any age, they were about to break their silence on the conspiracy.

    9. If it didn't happen, it's because the gummint didn't want it to happen. There's no such thing as chance, luck, error, confusion, lack of total and instant communication among multiple organizations, failure of imagination or preparation, or just plain surprise. Remember, the gummint is all-powerful.

    10. Except when crucial "evidence" shows up on a web site, or the anonymous friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend blurts it out. On a web site.

    11. You're not open-minded enough to handle The Truth. If you believe the gummint's reports, you're a tool, a fool, or they're holding your wife/husband/kid/dog hostage to guarantee your aquiescence.

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