1. #1
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    Default Truth in advertising?

    Does the truth count anymore? I'm not talking about politics here, but apparatus advertising. American LaFrance (ALF) used to state "Since 1837". That company has been in and out of business with several owners, so to make such a claim is, in my opinion, very dishonest. Now they are claiming to have invented the aerial platform. Their ad in the August issue of Firehouse magazine on page 31 is what I'm referring to. The top line of the ad reads: "Who better to reinvent the aerial platform than the people who invented the aerial platform."
    The lower line reads: "In 1972 American LaFrance introduced a new concept to the industry. The aerial platform." Now if I remember correctly in 1965 there was a company that invented a device that we now know as the Aerialscope. Mack had this aerial platform placed on their chassis and it became their product. However in 1958 the Chicago FD unveiled a great invention that became the Snorkel. The product was also an aerial platform.
    Fast forward to 1972 when a new company called LTI was formed out of the old Grove Manufacturing if I remember correctly. LTI stands for Ladder Towers Incorporated. They developed what is now known as the ladder tower, hence the name LTI. About two or three years ago ALF purchased LTI. In 1972 ALF was still in Elmira NY. This is way before the union struggles that strangled them in the 80's, before the Figgie purchase, before the move to Bluefield and certainly before Jim Hebe.
    My question is; What gives them the right to make such claims?
    Comments are welcomed.

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    Default

    Well, I agree, that is some very misleading advertising. I will say though that I think TECHNICALLY they may be correct. Before I say my piece, I will say that I am fairly young and don't know much about the buying and selling of companies in detail and who came out with what prior to about 1990. That being said, here it goes.

    Where American LaFrance could get away with thier statement could be in terminology. What American LaFrance is calling an Aerial Platform falls into the classification of Aerial Platform (in IFSTA's book on such apparatus), meaning it is an Aerial device with a platform and the ladder is actually the structure that supports the platform. Yes, what is now known as the snorkel came before, but that is actually an Articulating Platform in the IFSTA manuals. The Aerialscope is a Telescoping Platform (the ladder is not a structural part of the aerial device, it is only there for emergency egress), not an Aerial Platform.

    As far as LTI goes, my understanding is that they started out as Grove Manufacturing. They built Aerial Ladders for Pierce (as well as other Fire Truck manufacturers). In 1980, the aerial ladder line was sold to a group of investors who renamed it Ladder Towers Incorporated (LTI). They are now owned by American LaFrance (as you stated). Now, I am not exactly sure what the product line included, but due to the terminology in my reading, I think they were only building Aerial Ladders (not platforms).

    If I have any part of this messed up , someone please let me know. I am not trying to muddy stuff up with inaccurate information.

    Now, as I said before, I agree that it could be a misleading statement that may be true due to technical descriptions. Do I think that there should be a whole lot of trouble for it, I don't think so. There are many, many, many more instances of misleading information in life. It is a marketing ploy some genius came up with that sounds catchy. I don't blame you for being upset though, the details are what can make or break something. Its not worth a lawsuit (if it was, I'm sure other manufacturer's would be stepping up to the plate) though. It just reminds us to take claims by manufacturers with a grain of salt.

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    I ran across something as well. But it was on an E-One.

    Did you know there HP95 platform actually is only a 92' model. They are so slick about it, they never mention the 95 as feet, but it gives you impression is has a 95' vertical reach. The hgorizontal reach is only 82.5'

    Why is it some firetruck builders think they can pull this crap.

    I think if NFPA wants to do something with the next revision, they need to standardize from where an aerial is measured. Is it vertical? From the top of the platform or floor? Is the aerial measured at the tip of the fly, last rung or the end of the egress?

    And why not more emphasis on horizontal reach? That is more important than vertical reach most of the time.

    There needs to be more truth in advertising. This is a respectable business, selling to respectable firefighters. I say the next time you see crap like this, which we all see everyday, it needs to be posted here for all to see.

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    Default

    no kiddin,..........I thougth the same thing........... wonder what else may be a lurkin ?
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    ff43065:
    No disrespect intended but no aerial manufacturer rates there units on horizontal reach. measurment is from the ground to the tip at maximum elevation.

    Articulating booms are rated on vertical reach not horizotal. some 2 boom Articulating platfrom only have about a 4O foot horizontal reach. It's important when looking at any aerial device to look at the full operating sweep and load ratings thru the sweep as this will change from model to model, Builder to Builder. E-One as an example has 2 very different 95 foot platforms (as do other brands) and operating ranges and reach are very different for these two platforms. Yet the Vertical reach is still up around 95 ft.

    respectfully

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    Ah FF43065, my old friend. Those that live in glass houses should not cast stones. Why don't you let everyone on the forums know the true horizontal reach on the Smeal 125' rearmount wonder toy? Or how about the the mid mount 100' aerial by Smeal? Answer truthfully because the answers are easy to find.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Really is easy info to get. All you have to do is ask for their Scrub Charts:

    125' Aerial - Vertical Reach 125' - Horizontal Reach 121'

    100' Midmount Aerial - Vertical Reach 102' 8" - Horizontal 99' 4"

    100' Midmount Platform - Vertical 100' - Horizontal 98' 9"

    Want more? They publish them on all their units.

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    http://www.smeal.com/apparatusitem.a...pparatus&aid=6

    Look at that and tell me what you all think.
    I think it was quite intresting.

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    Engine153, thanks for bringing this up. Although you are correct, there is one company that has Aerial Scope beat. Sutphen designed and maufactured their first aerial platform in 1962 and sold the first production unit in 1964 to Coshocton, Ohio. Prior to that as you state in your post Chicago was purchasing a Snorkel product with an articulating platform.

    Sutphen is the oldest continuously owned and operated fire appratus company in the country. They began in 1890 and are still family owned and operated to this day. They have never been sold and have never been bankrupt.

    I too have seen the advertisments being used by ALF and Seagrave and thought that I would add some insight to your forum.

    Check out Sutphen's website (www.sutphen.com)click on the history link and you will get more information about the company.

    My station runs a Sutphen Platform and are happy to be part of the Sutphen family.

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    Originally posted by k1500chevy97
    http://www.smeal.com/apparatusitem.a...pparatus&aid=6

    Look at that and tell me what you all think.
    I think it was quite intresting.
    btw, that link i posted I just thought it was wierd to be flowing 1250 gpm out of the end of the stick only being supplied by a single 2-1/2" line. they must have some damn good pressure. LOL

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    Just a little dab on the 95 E-One rear mount platform;

    The 95 rear mount platform is 92' feet rated when compared to the current NFPA standard. The 95 came from the vertical height it was rated for compared to the NFPA standard at the time of it's design (and first 10 years of manufacture).

    FYI, the 'HP95' is the mid-mount platform and is rated for 95'.
    "The light that goes around, even up-side down".

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    Default Truth In Advertising-Aerial Reach

    As to the outreach ratings. NFPA does require the Vertical Reach but couldn't get a consensus on also including Horizontal Reach which I and I think many FD's feel is equally important...

    The reason was that different manufacturers have different ratings, for example the Bronto and Metz can't achieve a horizontal reach that is even close to their vertical reach so it consensus couldn't be reached about how to qualify the issue.

    It should be at 0 deg horizontal as that's the worst case scenario. I know that Smeal also shows their horizontal as well as vertical reaches in their literature and specifications. They also achieve their vertical at 72 deg whereas other builders use 75+ to achieve the vertical reach.

    Just another example of Buyer Beware. Make sure what you thought you get is what you did get.

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    Default Truth In Advertising

    To the comment from K1500Chevy97 about Smeals website photo of a 75 ft. Quint flowing 1250 GPM at 90 degs..

    How does he know the size of the hose from the photo??. I can tell him and anyone else that it does flow that GPM and was verified by UL to meet the ULC Standard that Canada uses as that truck went to Delta B.C.

    For anyone's info the ULC Standard used in Canada is more stringent in many respects than NFPA and in fact the latest NFPA actually has incorporated some of the ULC standards and the new ULC Standards has incorporated some of the NFPA Standards.

    And for the record Smeal has "ALL" of their aerial models "listed" which means a 3rd party (Independant) verification of the materials and engineering to ensure "Truth In Advertising"

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    Default

    I was in no way doubting their product. It just appears that they have a small line feeding it in that photo looks to be 2-1/2" at the most 3"

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    Sure it will flow 1250 GPM.

    It would flow that amount without any supply lines for circa 15 seconds.

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    Default Sutphen Legecy

    The next generation of Sutphens is now in the sales force. There looks to be no slowing of this train. Sutphen just completed a new faculity at their Corporate headquarters designed for customer deliveries and Shield series production. I am looking forward to accepting our new Sutphen pumper and begining our partnership with the Sutphen family!!!
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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