1. #1
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    Default Anyone use 4" LDH???

    Our department is working on the specs for a new 1000 gal, 1250 gpm engine. Our "attack" truck is a quint that we supply with a double 3" lay for all structure fires. Our plans are to change this to a single 4" lay. Does anyone use 4" supply hose? Any thoughts out there?

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    I think you will find that most FD's who have LDH have either 4" or 5".

    We went to 4" LDH last year (we used to lay dual 3's). My community has 99% hydrant coverage, and the 4" serves our purposes well.
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    Most of the hyranted areas in Vermont are setup with departments with atleast some 4". Some still use 3" with 2.5" couplings, but that's starting to disappear more and more.

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    Default 4 inch...

    My first introduction to LDH was 4 inch hose. After briefly
    working with it, i must say I like it. Plently of water,
    still minimal FL and easy to load up.

    I think it would be ideal over 5 inch.

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    Default Its all about friction

    500' lay at 750 gpm

    4" = 60 psi friction loss
    5" = 20 psi friction loss

    1000' lay at 500 gpm

    4" = 50 psi friction loss
    5" = 20 psi friction

    1000' lay at 1000 gpm

    4" = 190 psi loss
    5" = 70 psi loss

    Many of the companies in our area who bought 4" in the mid to late 80's are now upgrading to 5". It is more expensive, more difficult to handle, and you can't put as much on your truck but what you save in friction loss makes it worth it. Don't get hung up in the flows, that really isn't what it is all about. You need to look at the length of your lays, what kind of residual pressures you are getting off your system and your tactics for pumping hydrants. We often do not have to pump plugs since we get good flow just from a straight hook up.

    Our new pumper has a 1500 gpm pump with a 1000 gallon tank and we were able to get 2200' of 5" in the bed along with a 250' 2 1/2" preconnect and 400' of 3" with 2 high rise packs, and our truck is pretty average in size.
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    My Company until recently had used 4" and I must say that we "loved it". We got the flows we needed,was easy to pick up, and easy to work with. To tell you the truth I miss it because there is a difference in working with 5". The only reason we went to 5" is because we got a new engine and it has a 1500GPM pump on it. obviously you would have to get what works best for your department but 4" hose is great to use.

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    Early 90's we switched from 4" to 5" on all of our trucks except 1. That one has 4" still because due to poor planning, the 5" couplings don't fit through the trough. All of our pumps are 1500+. The 5" simply gives us more water than the 4".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    We just purchased our first 4" LDH about a year ago, and boy were we impressed. The big Storz fittings are easy to use, and the hose is still easy enough to handle. The truck didn't have to work as hard, and we could run a 120 psi handline with the engine pretty well at idle.

    We have just picked up a new truck (1050 pumper), and have an aerial on order, and they will definitely get the 4". We did consider the 5", but since we don't have any pumps bigger than 1050 gpm, and our average lay is less than 500 feet, we thought the extra cost was unjustified. We'll see how the aerial does with the 4" before purchasing it's LDH though.
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    We've used 5" since the 80's.

    The pros outweigh any cons for our jurisdictin.
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    Default 5 inch all the way

    we have 1000 ft of 5 inch on all the engines. we still have 1000 ft of three inch as a backup, but we rarely use it. the friction loss is less, you can flow more water, and it's even easier to clean. I would definately go with 5 inch.

    as an unrelated comment, I can remember when we recently used 3 inch hose for a supply. we were fighting a major truck fire on the NJ turnpike (which has no hydrants), and ran out of tank water. we had one of our other engines hook up to a hydrant off the pike, and pull a 3 inch line through a resident's back yard, down a 20-30 ft wall, to a length of 3 inch we pulled off our engine and attached to our intake. I wouldn't have wanted to do that with a 5 inch line. so there is still a place for 3 inch in the fire service, but more as a backup when needed.
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    Our department has used five inch hose for the last 20+ years. Our average lay is 5-800 feet. Our hydrants are 'decent', and our township is 75% hydranted, with the remaining 25% under a mile of a hydrant. We have a large number of long driveways off the road, long commerical lays, and we use them to supply FDCs.

    Nothing beats the 5" line when it comes to water supply. The minimal friction loss at long lays means you can get workable flows and pressures without always putting an engine on the plug. And if you do put an engine on the plug, prepare for hellatious streams

    Of course, all of are trucks are above 1,500 gpm pumps(minus the brush unit). Engine 1 carries 2,000 feet of 5" and Engine 2 and Tankers 1 & 2 carry 1,000ft. If you don't have long lays, difficult
    lays, or need for big water a lot, 4 inch is acceptable.


    PATF1engineer's figures are accurate. Take for example a recent fire we had at an elementary school that sits on top of a hill with a 1,500ft lay from the front of the school to the bottom of the hill(where the best hydrant is). The hydrant is really too strong, but we made a reverse lay to supply a 1,500 gpm pumper at the top of the hill. They had 50psi incoming pressure and we were still below the maximum pressure of the hose, and they had sufficient water to attack and extinquish the fire.
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    All three of our engines are set-up with 800-1000 feet of 4 inch for supply on the rear beds (typical lay is less than 200 feet though). We also keep a short 4 inch "pony line" rolled in the Engineer's compartment in case he can position right by a hydrant. About half the hydrants in town are set-up with both 4 inch and 2 1/2 inch outlets. The other half are single 2 1/2 inch outlet "wharf head" hydrants. We keep a 4 inch to 2 1/2 inch adapter on the end of each supply line so that if we have a wharf head hydrant (or we're doing a second lay and the 4 inch outlet's already in use) we can connect easily. If there's an available 4 inch outlet, we just take the adapter off and connect right in.
    Chris Gaylord
    Emergency Planner / Fire Captain, UC Santa Cruz FD

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    4" is well suited for moderate flows, from a moderate hydrant system, with moderate spacing.

    5" has advantages both in high flow and low pressure situations, and has the advantage in long lay situations.

    PATF's figures are decidely on the conservative side if you shop wisely for fire hose.

    1000' lay at 1000 gpm

    4" = 190 psi loss
    5" = 70 psi loss


    Angus Hi-Vol, around for 20 years so it's not exactly new technology, will do 1000gpm 1000' with a 90psi loss in 4" and 30psi loss in 5"

    Which brings up another point -- figure out what you want the hose to do, because not all fire hose does the best at all things even though the size is the same.

    Some people have need for high volume, high pressure options that Hi-Vol can't meet. Some people have hose bed restrictions and could find other manufacturer's 5" that fit much more capacity in the same bed as Hi-Vol, and I'd suspect some of the best packing Niedner 5" would beat the capacity in those beds of 4" Hi-Vol.

    Get figures like service pressures, friction loss, weight per length, and how tight you can pack it (partly indicated by how small of diameter a roll of x size is).

    Also realize things that may be nice in one type of hose -- say rubber jacket on LDH so you can rinse it easily before repacking -- may hurt in a different application, like on attack lines that the rubber adds friction when you're pulling it and a slipperier hose would be easier to advance even if it needs to be brushed down afterwards.
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    we went to 5 inch a few years ago. we thought about getting 4 vs 5 inch, but the pros of 5 inch were ten-fold over the 4 inch. the only real advantage is that the 4 is cheaper. the friction loss is less with the 5, you have better flow. and its easy to clean. sure 4 is a bit smaller and easier to handle, but unless your goin to be laying a outragious amount of hose, you dont really notice the difference. our longest lay is at most 1000 ft so we dont have to worry about the effects of large amounts of hose.

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    we are in the process of changing over from 4 to 5 ......we have used 4 in for the last 20 some some years. In 1998 when we got our last new engine we had 5" put on it, and 2-3 years ago changed over the tower ladder to 5" also. This year after a nice donation from Meijers we appear to be able to change over the 2nd engine, and then the 4" will be by the wayside. I thnk the 5" is more difficult to pick up, but for our moslty crappy water supply systemm 5" simply flows better.
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    Default

    I want to thank everyone for the insight and experiences that you have posted here. It has helped me a lot. We like the idea of having to pack one-half the hose by switching to the 4" lay. If I told you that our longest lay from hydrant to structure is 1600', our average lay is about 500'-600', and our hydrant pressure is about 50psi, would that change your mind on going with 4"? FYI, we always use the engine to pump to the quint.

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    If I told you that our longest lay from hydrant to structure is 1600', our average lay is about 500'-600', and our hydrant pressure is about 50psi,

    The key thing is to know what your residual is when you're flowing x volume of water.

    Having 50psi static doesn't mean diddly, cause you could have that on a hydrant fed by looped 16" mains, or you could have that on a hydrant on a long, rust-filled 4" dead-end main.

    If you have 50psi residual when flowing a decent amount of water, say 1000gpm, you have a pretty good hydrant system IMHO (then again ours is pretty marginal sometimes...)

    Using the Hi-Vol numbers above, and assuming the standard fire service 20psi intake pressure for the pumper, a hydrant that delivers 1000gpm with a residual of 50psi would push that water 300' in 4" or 1000' in 5" without needing a pump at the hydrant.
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    We at Hanford Fire, Washington Have been using 4 inch for almost 20 years, works great and does just what we need it to do. One thing, we do have the 4 inch to 5 inch reducers for mutual aid .

    Zimm

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    Thumbs down None Here...............

    We do not use LDH. Why? We don't like it. Impedes the passage of later arriving apparatus, Some (not all) will not take higher pressures, Cost, Plumbing, and the list goes on.......... We carry 2,000 ft of 3 inch per Engine, We NEVER flow a line off the hydrant, there is always a pumper on the hydrant, and our water system is excellent. And besides, We just don't like the stuff.
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    One department I was on used 5' LDH. It was a 200% improvemnt over the old 3' Supply line. We have broken water mains with the 5' and on one occasion I was pulling 10 psi of suction on it.
    CB

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    Default Massive amounts of fire?

    It might just be me, but my 4 inch experiences produced a massive
    water supply, always more than enough. Granted we had really good hydrants in my area.

    I am just guessing you guys must have massive, massive fires
    for the 5 inch.

    To me, the 4 inch just seems like the right-happy-medium
    for the job.

    -Bou

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    We have broken water mains with the 5' and on one occasion I was pulling 10 psi of suction on it.
    The one and only department in the world that can pull a suction on soft hose that collapses at zero pressure. They can even ruin water mains!
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    We have 850' of 4" and 800 ft of 3" supply on our pieces. Two are 1500 gpm pumpers and the other is 1250. No issues with the 4" other than the other companies in the county don't carry it.

    We have a small section of our first due with dependable hydrants, the rest we run a pumper/tanker first due since the hydrants are iffy. We also have some long drives, and dead end streets that may require long lays. SOP is to drop 4" as the normal layout, but to drop 3" and 4" for commercial buildings or other structures that may require a lot of water.

    BTW, the reason for the extra 50' of 4" as compared to the 3" is the 50' section of red hose we have at the mid-way point.

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    Originally posted by LFDAC21
    If I told you that our longest lay from hydrant to structure is 1600', our average lay is about 500'-600', and our hydrant pressure is about 50psi, would that change your mind on going with 4"? FYI, we always use the engine to pump to the quint.
    The thing is, when specing an apparatus or buying equipment, you must prepare for 'worst case scenarios'. Your average lay may only be 500-600' feet, but you must be ready and have a plan of action for that 1600' lay, or the time when the hydrant fails. The latter is not impossible: While fighting a fire in a skating rink, we were flowing big water and making good progress, and then all of a sudden the hydrant rose up out of the ground and fell over, and the 12" main we were on shattered. We had to make a 2,500' lay in a relay operation to accomplish the water supply after that.

    Then again, do other people around you use 4'? Because if you want to tie up a good bit of engines, you can always do a relay to accomplish what you want and not just 5" with an engine on the plug. But then again, everyone around you has to use 4" or you end up with a messy relay operation(Happened to us before too. 1500 feet of five inch, 500 feet of 3", and then 200 feet of 5".....Nasty. But it happened because a HYDRANT FAILED again)

    I'd recommend 5" if you're the only company with LDH around, but if you enjoy relaying and can accomplish it, go to 4"
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

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    My Dept has 4"
    It is a pain in butt if you ever want to flow anything beyond 1,000 GPM.

    I strongly recommend 5". It can flow 1.6 times more water with the same friction loss as 4". Or it can flow the same amount of water as 4" but 2.5 times as far.

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