Thread: Water Thiefs and LDH Manifolds
08-24-2004, 03:01 AM #1
- Join Date
- Jun 2003
Water Thiefs and LDH Manifolds
Good morning folks! (3 AM here, yer another restless night)
We were discussing this topic the othernight while at the firehouse, when do you utilize a water thief, and when do you utilize an LDH Manifold?
Currently we don't have any sort of LDH manifold, unless our 2.5" Gate valve to 4" Storz setup counts. We were trying to come up with some ideas when exactly other departments are utilizing these devices.
One thing that we had discussed was setting up one of our pumpers with a Water Thief. What are the pros and cons to these devices? How are yours setup? What would you change about them?
When do you deploy your LDH Manifolds? What's the procedure for doing such? Is it done by the hydrant company? Only if needed? How is it decided when and when not to use it? What size LDH are you using? Do you adapt any of the connections down for other sizes? IS there a wye connected to it with two smaller connections?
We generally have 2 (sometimes 3) 4" lines during a fire, along with a few 2.5" tank fill lines going. Just looking to explore our ideas right now.
08-24-2004, 09:27 AM #2
Well, I'm not sure if our terminology aligns quite right, but here's my answer:
We carry two LDH appliances on the rear step of our Engine, which carries 5000' 5" and has the primary mission of water supply. A Gated Wye and a Water Thief.
The 5" Gated Wye is used when we're reverse laying from scene to water. From the wye one line is run to the Engine-Tank there. The second outlet is either unused, or is sent to the Ladder.
I don't like splitting the water that way -- generally I'd prefer it all flow through one truck, and have the ET supply the Ladder -- then you don't have two truck operators each competeting for the same limited resource. But from a practical standpoint, sometime's it's easier to wye off the supply.
The 5" Water Thief has 4 2.5" outlets and 1 5" outlet. It's primarily used for tanker filling. 2.5" lines to the tankers, one man stays at the Water Thief to open/close as necessary while other crew members connect/disconnect the tankers. We only fill one tanker at a time, so the Wye man controls that -- the next tanker can be connected and he can shift the water supply over as the first tanker is filled. If it's a higher-flow shuttle we'll often use 2 2.5" and/or 4" hose for the fill line.
Although we haven't done it yet, the Water Thief could also be used for long duration overhaul incidents -- another name for it is "Phantom Pumper" and it could be left on the scene feeding master streams and/or handlines. That way you wouldn't need to leave the fireground pumper committed at the scene.
BTW, one of those appliances is always used. We don't pump direct into the fireground pumpers -- I suppose for the same reason we always put on a 2.5" gate valves when we're dressing a hydrant. After water is flowing, you can't go back and change it without interrupting the flow...so put in the flexibility from the beginning.IACOJ Canine Officer
08-24-2004, 12:16 PM #3
- Join Date
- Jan 2003
First in engine goes to scene. Pump operator gets water flowing to attack lines, then stretches a 30ft. section of 5in. that is preconnected to piston intake relief valve to either the front or rear of truck, depending on the way the second in is coming from, hooks it to the manifold (making sure the manifold is closed)and returns back to the pump. Second in lays from hydrant to manifold hooks manifold up and charges hydrant and notifies first engine operator of the conncetion. Our trucks have 1000ft of 5in. The manifolds are 5in. in and out with 4 2.5in. discharges also. If we have had to do a reverse lay (which is not often) the second in has to radio the first in operator of the connection. With the manifold it is possible to run more than one truck remote of the hydrant, have the ability to have the second engine as a backup or adapt it down to waterever you need just hydrant prseeure for. We have even put the manifold (backwards)at the end of long rural driveways 400 to 1000 foot long. This way more than one truck can be hooked up at one time to supply water. That way when they disconnect you do not lose all the water in the 5in. hose. We use ours every time the LDH is put on the ground.
08-24-2004, 02:54 PM #4Originally posted by Dalmatian90
We carry two LDH appliances on the rear step of our Engine, which carries 5000' 5" and has the primary mission of water supply. A Gated Wye and a Water Thief.If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!
08-24-2004, 04:09 PM #5
why on earth do you have 5000' of 5 inch hose on an engine?
So we can reach a water supply 5000' away.
Truck pre-dates the Hydrants, normally reverse lay to them in the center area...few targeted hazards we forward lay 1500-2000' or so from the hydrant and then reverse lay another 2000-2500' or so to establish a secondary water supply from a static source.
Pickup isn't that bad...one big reel.
We probably will downgrade in 15, 20 years when the truck is up for replacement back to 3000' or so of 5" -- just changing demographics in the town as to what the water supplies and hazards are.IACOJ Canine Officer
08-24-2004, 07:30 PM #6
Each of our 3 engines has a 4 inch hydro-assist valve at the rear. It's in the rear compartment on our E-One and on the tailboard of our two Macks. The policy used to be that it was always installed unless the Captain specifically stated not to. Now it's the hydrantman's call unless the Captain specifically calls for it. Primary purpose is for a second engine to "boost" to the attack engine (we have a few houses in town that are above the domestic water supply), but can also be used for two engines to hook-up to a single-discharge hydrant.
We do also carry a thief on each engine in a compartment and it's pulled and connected whenever we do a reverse lay.Chris Gaylord
Emergency Planner / Fire Captain, UC Santa Cruz FD
08-24-2004, 08:12 PM #7
- Join Date
- Nov 2003
We do some things the same as others. In the village, we use 5" LDH with a hydrant assist valve on the second due engine. In the rural, we lay in 4" down the driveway connected to a portable hydrant with the first due engine. That way, other trucks that come on scene can hook into that to send water to the attack engine.-Bozz
Air Force Medic
08-24-2004, 09:13 PM #8
we got a bunch of them on the tower ladder.........dont use them much anymore as almost everyone now has LDH , and our large local factory is all but closed, minimizing the use of their yard hyfrants.IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
"but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
08-25-2004, 12:13 AM #9Originally posted by Weruj1
and our large local factory is all but closed, minimizing the use of their yard hyfrants.
We got a couple, but haven't been used in a long, long time......
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