New Rear Mount Pump/Controls?
We're also putting together specs for a new engine and are considering rear mount pump for several reasons: cost, efficient use of space, visibility, ease of pond placement on narrow roads. We've seen more and more of these delivered and the apparatus officers seem to like them.
What we're looking at overall for our rural dept. (cost matters).
330 HP Intl 3-man cab/Chassis with poly rescue body
1500 rear-mount pump
Class A FoamPro 1600
Advice pro or con on the rear mount pump much appreciated!
Rear Mount Builders and Information
Weruj1 is correct, there was a lengthy forum and posts on rear mounts about two months ago. Do a search and you should find it.
I could only add, deal with a reputable and established manufacturer, not a garage guy. While rear pump technology is not new, it has gone thru evolutions over the last several years that many little guys are not aware of. Do not be a guinea pig and do not buy from people who are not going to be around in 10 years. it is a significant investment and you should do alot of homework BEFORE you go to bid.
I might suggest you start with the ones who build the most rear mounts in this order:
Saulsbury/E-One- Ocala FL. You "may" still be able to buy one under the E-One name (but the NY Saulsbury plant is closing soon), but it will be built in Ocala and more than likely will need to be aluminum. Hands down, Saulsbury has been the innovator on these rear mount products over the last 15 years. Their dealer for you is Dan Desorcie in Vermont at 1-802-527-2216.
Rosenbauer- Minneapolis MN and Sioux Falls SD. Either the Central or General Divisions both build rear mounts and diseminate the facility by design complexity. If you are looking for a striaght forward, no wild and whizzy stuff Central does it regularly. if your are looking for the out of the ordinary and specialized rear mount, general Division of Rosenabuer does things that many others will not and build to your specific needs. Rosenbauer has built more rear mounts worldwide than anyone and has been established for over 100 years under one name. rosenabuer has a factory owned service center in Massachussets also, so that is a plus for you geograhically. Phone sales manager Donley Fredrickson at the factory 1-605-543-5591.
Pierce- Appleton WS. Although new to rear mounts, they have a sound manufacturing organization and some demo units running around. they will go thru the normal learning curve and have issues, I am sure, but they are a reputable company and will stand behind what they build. You can call Mike Schoenberger at the factory 1-920-832-3231 or the local dealer Minuteman Ford.
Four Guys- Meyersdale PA. Although they have poor dealer representation in the northeast beyond NY and PA, they have built a fair number of these and build a sound overall product. They specialize in stainless bodies trucks and seems to have a good name and satisfied users list. You can contact Rick irwin at 1-814-634-8373.
Seagrave- (Classic Fire Division in Ocala) Although new, the Classic Division of Seagrave has an intimate relationship with the Hale pump people and the rear mount components. They have a rear mount demo running around that I saw at FDIC and PA. The bodies can be aluminum or poly, but the jury is still out on poly. One of the owners can fill you in well, Jim White 1-352-351-1347.
Many others, butstick with the reputable guys and do alot of listening. I amsure I left some good guys out, but this is a quick and short list, so feel free to add.
Stay safe and good fishing!
Two sides to every story.
I always try to be nuetral and open minded in my reading and replies on firehouse.com, so I will try to be humble in my response. I am only offering an "opinion” and in no way is it intended to be disrespectful of any manufacturer or component manufacturer. As they say: “There are two sides to every story”…….
A note on a previous post by "fyrtrks":
I am the Northeast Regional Sales Manager for PolyBilt & Pro Poly of America. Requiring a poly body does not limit your options it actually enhances them. We will provide poly body to any apparatus manufacturer and I am sure our competitors will do likewise; the trick is to get them to step outside of their comfort zone and use a poly body. The bigger manufacturers are set on their body material and their manufacturing process. Yes we have builders that we have used before and that are more familiar with the process, however that should not stop you from specifying a poly body with your "favorite or preferred" builder. You can ask for specifications from your builder and substitute a poly body in the bid. You are building a truck that will be used in your department not one in Pa, Wi or Fl in a fire apparatus manufacturing plant.
I am intimately familiar with the PolyBilt and ProPoly product line in both availability and also the properties of the material as promoted. DO NOT take my comments as being disrespectful of the ideology or quality of the product, but moreso an over view of the exact wording you utilized in the post.
While I would say that the poly material has opened some new technology and addresses the inherent corrosion issues of fire truck bodies, there are several more issues that can be encountered. I would be remiss if I did not add that I have a strong belief that alternative body materials (other than metal) will play a strong role in future fire apparatus construction, but many evolutions will occur over time. The “time” will be slow, as tradition runs incredibly strong in the U.S. fire service. That hard core tradition many times does not allow or hinders innovation that could be interpreted as…..too far out there in the “futuristic” zone. BUT, eventually, piece by piece, changes and innovation will work its way into the U.S. fire service, as it has in Europe already, with several companies offering alternative materials with very good success.
Lets review my point based on your post:
Herein lies part of the problem in my own opinion. When you state "to ANY manufacturer". When the poly bodies were first made available, every Tom, Dick and Harry that had a garage with a door tall enough and a few hand tools all of a sudden thought they could build fire trucks. While I am a FIRM believer in regional manufacturers, the problem “I” saw, was the fact that there were many unqualified people out there that decided: "I can do this, no problem"! The "garage shop guys" (not actual "fire truck" builders, but rather wannabes) decided they wanted to build firetrucks. The initial onslaught was based around simple, straightforward and low sophistication style tankers, which made a bit of sense. What happened I believe was a bunch of guys who were not familiar with NFPA, fire apparatus engineering, warranty responsibilities (and associated costs) and overall finite details of building fire trucks, started to price and sell these "basic' trucks. Well the costs offered the "allure" of a great price from these "little" guys and they seemed very well intended. All of a sudden, there were 20-30-50 people volleying for position to build the "basic" poly tanker, cutting each others throats price wise (which may “sound” nice). Each of them having limited to no overhead (people, pensions, insurance, liability insurance, bonding capabilities, etc.), no engineering, no warranty program, no real investment in machinery other than some basic hand tools, etc. Once these guys started actually building “firetrucks”, all of a sudden they got in much deeper than they originally anticipated and many all of a sudden bailed out, once they realized what the real cost of doing business was, or they went bankrupt. End result, the only thing that had a warranty was the actual part that was built by the particular "poly" company, not what was assembled by the prime contractor. While it "sounded" nice..."a lifetime warranty"....and the little guys sold customers on "what is not to like"?......and "what else could go wrong on a simple truck if you have a lifetime warranty"? All of a sudden the little garage guys (which from what I have seen, historically last in the business 3-5 years and as soon as one disappears, another one pops up, leaving the customer holding the bag!) found that they needed to meet this thing called NFPA. Issues, for example, but not limited to……NFPA compliant wiring systems. They all of a sudden said Hmmmmmm...you mean I have to do something other than run down to Pep Boys and buy a few rolls of wire, roles of black electric tape, cut, splice and have a huge supply of butt connectors? All of a sudden they had to wire to certain standards, provide wiring that needed to be color coded, function coded, load managed, have fast idle systems interconnected to electronic and multiplexed engines, supply as built wiring diagrams, on and on. OH BOY, now we have issues! Many other things such as………”oh, now you want a fire pump?”……UT OH! How do you cut these drivelines (get out the cutting torch Hank!)? How do you balance drive shafts (weld nuts and washers around until it sounds better?)? What does weight distribution mean (it looks good to me, ship it)? On and on……All the while, the larger and more legitimate manufacturers virtually gave up on trying to compete with the garage shop guys that came and went. The garage guys, with their limited experience of cost estimating labor and materials (only to find out that they were losing their butts on the price units were sold for) most times closed their doors or departed the business of building “simple trucks” that was initially anticipated.
We will provide poly body to any apparatus manufacturer and I am sure our competitors will do likewise; the trick is to get them to step outside of their comfort zone and use a poly body. The bigger manufacturers are set on their body material and their manufacturing process.
Does this mean no legitimate builders are making poly-bodied apparatus? Does this mean all poly builders are half-baked, non-legitimate, dishonest companies? Resoundly and loudly, NO! BUT, until the volume and demand increases, larger manufacturers will not invest significant funds to develop products of alternative materials. Also I should add that I also clearly understand that total costs of apparatus is a legitimate concern to all departments, but “cost” does not always reflect “long term or total cost”. Look at history. Young Fire Apparatus (Buffalo NY) with its innovative owner Dick Young, built a pile of composite bodies, long before ProPoly or UPF offered a poly body with limited success and acceptance in the 70’s and 80’s, before filing bankruptcy. Emergency One who developed the plastic Daytona cab, which turned disastrous with huge engineering issues, but had a great idea, it just turned cost prohibitive and was not well engineered. In time, alternate materials will have a “limited” role, but only if a “big guy” steps up and invests to engineer it correctly (as I also feel there are still engineering issues related to the current designs offered which is a whole other post required). Also, I feel, until the poly companies decide to partner with a larger manufacturer willing to make an investment, they will continue to get a bad name (due to Harry Fire trucks and Rain Gutter Company hacking together a truck) or have limited exposure to the market due to limited or/no dealer/distribution networks and they will have limited success in penetrating the overall market. Hence my comments on your note of: “The bigger manufacturers are set on their body material and their manufacturing process” and “your favorite or preferred” builder. You should add to the comment, that as long as the customers “favorite” builder is not in the top 10 U.S. fire truck manufacturing companies, this should be no problem! While all use poly water tanks by your and other poly companies, I would ask, IF my analogy is incorrect: Why do the following top 10 manufacturers not build “complete” poly bodied apparatus? E-One, Pierce, KME, Rosenbauer, ALF, Ferrara, Sutphen, Smeal, Crimson, etc? I believe they have all realized what I am trying to explain. Maybe not, but I believe so. Also, some names mentioned in this particular post such as: Vtec, Monroe, Simon, etc. (not mentioning exact names out of respect to them) have been in and out of business several times due to bankruptcy and simply started under another name, further supporting some of my comments. In closing, I will acknowledge that Darley uses the poly body developed and marketed with ProPoly. I have the utmost respect for the Darley Family and Company, but they will only service a small market niche with a small distribution network and the limited resources to be a major apparatus builder, verses a pump and equipment supplier. Darley would have to be rated as one of the top potential poly body companies out there, as they are operated and managed as a family business with a very hands on approach, with a great reputation.
I am surprised to hear you being almost slanderous or questioning the integrity of companies that butter your bread? While the “major” manufacturers in PA, WI and FL do not offer poly “bodied” apparatus, they all use poly tanks from your and other poly tank companies! I FIRMLY believe in construction and product offerings that cater to a customers EXACT operating environment. Part of the problem lies in that the legitimate manufacturers that have engineering capabilities to “build it your way”, have shunned the Poly Body, because the previously stated reasons. A thought might be to get with “a” or “several” legitimate company/companies and escalate the engineering process and increase volume through partnering with them in order to attain greater exposure to a bigger piece of the market. Shunning them or being slanderous because they cannot compete (and yes, they need to make money to stay in business) due to the fact that they offer sound engineered products, legitimate long term warranties and be around more than five years from now, does not substantiate an almost “standoffish” position. An example to me would be; If Pierce (or any other top 5, volume builder) all of a sudden had 2 or 3 model poly bodies available through their 100-300 sales people), I would bet my bottom dollar that there would be a whole lot more of them sold, if backed by a company such as Pierce, E-One, Rosenbauer, ALF or other top 10 builder. Maybe I am wrong, but just some food for thought.
You are building a truck that will be used in your department not one in Pa, Wi or Fl in a fire apparatus manufacturing plant.
Sorry to sound so defensive, but people should know both sides of a story (Ya know, the Paul Harvey thing!), before leaping in faith on a huge investment or understanding multiple sides of the story. If other fire truck buyers, other than myself, want to take on the risk and purchase from the garage guys, I am sure they will be happy, but the question, MAY be: For how long? Based on the documentable track history of garage builders in the last 20 years, it could be a expensive lesson. Please keep in mind that I believe there are some VERY respectful small manufacturers and my comments should not be taken carte blanche. Also I will add for your benefit, that I have purchased several Propoly "water" tanks and it is a fine product, with a sound warranty and I would reccommend your Propoly or UPF's tank to anyone.
Stay Safe and good fishing!
Pump drives and Price for 1500 gpm
Now that I am done grumbling about fly by nights…..LOL……sorry!
QUOTE]Specific Question: Worth the $2900 to get 1500 gpm instead of 1250 gpm? [/QUOTE]
This must be investigated or expanded upon or you can get in trouble real quick. This can also support my previous grumpy manufacturer post! If not engineered correctly, the 1500 gpm pump can be disasterous. DO NOT take this wrong, the 1500 pump is a very reliable and a viable option on the rear mount. First and foremost you must question the pump drive system. I have posted this before, but will do so again for your benefit (sorry to those I bored previously). Here is the last post in a previous rear mount forum describing drivelines, horsepower and applications for your benefit, as it sounded as though you could not find the last rear mount post. It read as follows:
Pump Drives Including Rear Mount
This post is to help those struggling with the description, location, drive type and design of out fire pump used commonly here in the U.S. I will post 5 sections giving a schematic (and no I do not have AutoCAD, maybe it is etch a sketch (LOL) but, I am trying to simply define what the differences are for the average fireman. Each are reliable if designed and engineered correctly. Each have applications that could suit a departments needs based on their operations, apparatus design requirements, and truly, the mission of the vehicle. I am not professing to be an expert in pump applications by any means, but sharing the little I know about the way pumps are “commonly” used and installed in my area. I am not professing that one is “better” than another, but I, like everyone else have my preferences due to the operating environments found in my area. Use the apparatus and pump manufacturers to your benefit! They provide education FREE, use it during your proposal periods, prior to buying a truck and stay open minded. There is new technology, better technology, but you will need to steer wide of “tradition” to reap the benefits. I apologize ahead of time to any particular manufacturer or model I may leave out! Hopefully this post will help someone better understand our applications and type of installations we normally see and the trucks I have worked with.
There will be the following format:
A- Drive type
B- Location of the pump
C- Style of pump
Summary of pump design, capacity, locations, controls, benefits and potential downsides to each. I will offer “opinions” in the review and the opinion is only mine and is only from my own personal experience.
Additional info can be greatly beneficial in supporting the descriptions I have given, just spend some time reading!
Some general information and description to start to limit confusion.
Plumbing and Manifolds- While all pedestal pumps require intake and discharge manifolds, some midship designs use manifolds also for ease of plumbing remote discharges located in areas other than the side midship pump panel locations. The traditional manifolds of yesteryear were built of black iron and galvanized materials. The materials are very thick in design, to offset corrosion that occurs inside the pipe of tube. Steel piping has historically been “schedule 40” or averaged ¼” thickness. Today, with readily available stainless steel materials, the wall thickness and weights can be reduced with the total no-corrosive materials. With stainless steel, it seems as though most manufacturers are using “Schedule 10” materials, allowing for a much lighter and more reliable installation. Furthermore, some manufacturers utilize “flange mount” flanges that bolt directly to Hale, Akron, Elkhart and Waterous valves. This is an incredibly reliable way to eliminate leaks common to threaded materials in the plumbing system. With “flange” style plumbing, threading is virtually eliminated, provided great reliability and ease of rebuilding valves later in life of the unit. I strongly recommend stainless plumbing and manifolds.
Volume and Size- When talking about pump sizes, we should always keep in mind that pump are rated from “draft”. There is many times a significant difference in what a pump can produce from other water sources such as a sufficient hydrant system or in a relay system with sufficient water being supplied. I personally know of “1250 gpm” pedestal pumps that pump 1800-2000 gpm via a hydrant system. A theory of: “If you can get it into the pump, it will put it out”! Output and capacity will also vary by the drive unit design. Split shaft drive gear boxes have more horsepower rating than pto’s on the average and can give you additional capacity. BUT, keep in mind, all have their manufacturers recommendations, so talk to the professionals.
Gearbox- A “split drive shaft” gearbox means exactly that! It allows for the trucks main drivelines to be “split”. The main driveshaft from the transmission to the pump hooks to the gearbox. A second shaft connects from the gearbox to the rear axle, driving the rear wheels. When the pump is not engaged, the shafts spin straight through the gearbox powering the rear axle and wheels. When the pump engages or is shifted, the front shaft turns powering the fire pump and disengages the shaft to the rear axle. The drive gear off the top of the gearbox is many times referred to as a gearbox pto and is similar to a pto on the trucks transmission. The gearbox is many times called a “Split shaft gearbox pto”.
PTO- Power take offs are available in many sizes, ratios and ratings. These are typically mounted to the top and side of the actual truck transmission. These DO have limitations in horsepower output, hence limiting pumping capacities off the power take off. Some manufacturers will tell you that they can drive bigger pumps than others. This is based on their decision not to de-rate the power take off as recommended by the actual pto manufacturer for “continuous duty operation” verses “intermittent duty operation”. I would personally suggest that we want continuous duty operation for heavy usage and reliability. Pto’s have service life ratings. These need to rebuilt every so many operating hours and vary by model. Critical care needs to be taken in maintaining proper driveline angularity or vibrations can occur, reducing shaft and pto life.
Now Drive types: