1. #1
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    Default WWYD- This house fire (picture)

    I just came across this picture and had to think this about
    it for a minute. I am split on taking a line throught the
    front door and stopping it in the middle of the house.
    (Fighting the fire from the inside out)

    OR...

    Taking a handline(s) right up to the garage. The penetration
    would be questionalbe because of the involvement of the
    fire.

    OR...

    I know a Captain that might quickly (30 seconds) deck gun
    the garage and get a quick knock down. (Not a bad idea
    considering the deep involment already)

    Interesting picture...What would you do?


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    My view is limited but....

    It looks as though there's a lot of living space behind the garage and possibly to the right of it. There does not appear to be any second floor living space. I also see, what appears to be three cars involved but no civilians visible. If I have the occupants telling me, without question, the house is empty I'm going for the quick knockdown from the front. However, given this scene and no occupants present (which is really what you're looking for) I would proceed as follows:

    A FE team and a charged 1 3/4" to the front door. Hitting the auto exposed front gable as the FE team takes the door. A second FE team and 1 3/4" to the assumed rear entrance, this team will likely be the main attack crew. Upon entry determine if the fire has breached the fireproof door into the occupancy and relay this info. Due to the buildings age I am assuming the front gable roof is lightweight prefab trusses and already compromised. This coupled with the tile roof present a severe collapse potential. Operations in the area of the front door should not be drawn out very long.

    The rear team should be in a good position to set up a cover line to support a search and hold the fire at the interior garage entrance. A rapid primary search should be conducted and when complete, the lines pulled back to the doorways and the main body of fire hit from the exterior until knocked down. Once the initial knockdown is done the front door line can mop up the garage and the rear door line re-enter and chase the extended fire with an overhaul team. A secondary search can then be completed.

    That's my nutshell operation without any other information.
    Last edited by E229Lt; 09-05-2004 at 07:39 AM.

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    Thumbs up I'm with the Lt.

    Artie is heading in the right direction, and I'm with him on that. My usual direction is to order additional lines into position, as quickly as additional arriving units will allow. This Fire, in my area, will get 3 Engines, a Truck, A Squad, and a few Chiefs, MINIMUM. With a mix of Career and Volunteer staffing, We'll get 20-35 people, depending on time of day. I'll be asking for a Task Force Alarm that will bring 2 more Engines and another Truck, along with a BLS and a ALS Ambulance for Standby.

    Backup line will be a 2" or 2.5" and follow the first line. Next line to side Charlie, to enter from that side as needed. Truckies will be breaking Glass, Quickly. First Priority for Safety will be the Tile Roof. Those are rare here, but we have some, along with some Slate roofs. Roofing of those types are very heavy, and prone to collapse early. We will not be overhauling under the tile in the area that was subjected to heavy fire without a very close look at the risk factor. I have no problem using "Hydraulic Overhaul" from the exterior, if that's what is required to insure the safety of our people.
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    If I pull up first on scene I'm probably working and not on volunteer time so lets base it on a paid day.
    Upon arriving on scene I establish command, advise dispatch of a working fire and have them repage for additional trucks. Considering it's daytime, it's unlikely many of the vollies will be available so I have dispatch request mutual aid from Baton Rouge. Am I working alone or do I have a coworker? If it's just me in the attack pumper with no help in sight I use the deck gun and make sure the FoamPro is mixing correctly so it'll foam up. I have to make that 1000 gallons last. If there are 2 of us I make sure my coworker hooks up the second out truck, a pumper/tanker, to my attack pumper so I have a lot more water. Nice neighborhood. Probably a hydrant nearby. Too bad we don't practice 'catching hydrants' in our department. We still operate the same way we did 20 years ago, TANKER SHUTTLE.
    Two paid FFs on scene, me on the deck gun and the other guy maybe on a handline protecting exposures. Maybe the Chief shows up in a tanker. Yippe. More water. Maybe the Chief pulls up in a pumper from the unmanned station near his house. Oh well. Maybe the Chief notices a hydrant nearby and decides to forgo tradition and hook to it. Yeah right. Maybe a vollie pulls up in a tanker. Yay. More water. Vollie gets out of the tanker to help the parttime paid guy wrestle the hose and protect exposures while the chief takes over pump operations of all three connected trucks (attack pumper, pumpertanker and tanker). Meanwhile, I either continue using the deck gun or hand it off to the Chief and grab another preconnect handline and get it in operation. Is Baton Rouge here yet? Am I the only one in bunker gear again? Is my Chief cussing anyone out yet causing them to rethink their commitment to volunteering with this department? Is my vollie drunk? Is my coworker drunk? Is my Chief drunk? Is anyone else coming or is it just the 4 of us with the 4 trucks? Where the hell is Baton Rouge FD? Why did this happen on my shift?
    Later. We pushed the fire back into the rest of the home but we managed to save the foundation. We thank the guys from Baton Rouge FD for coming out and helping us mop up. Since I'm the fulltime guy working that day I get the honor of filling out the Fire Report. That is if I can drag my fat, exhausted butt from under the shade tree where I collapsed after we knocked the fire down. Everyone climbs into whichever truck they arrived in and we head to the main station to refill the water and make sure the trucks are ready for the next run. Is my shift over yet?
    Last edited by cellblock; 09-05-2004 at 02:20 PM.

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    Confirming there is no IDLH to occupants in the house (House Empty) and exposure considertions,I would do the following:

    Stretch a 2 ĹĒ line to the back with a back up line for the initial attack.

    Have crews place a stand by line near the front entrance.

    Protect exposures by positioning an exposure line for side delta (which to us looking at the house is on the right)

    Inform everyone to stay away from the front door way, (possible collapse of outside garage wall) but after initial attack has made some substantial head way, then maybe after quickly reevaluating the situation, crews could use the front door to further the operation of suppression.

    Ventilation wont be so hard on this one, being that itís probably going to vent itís self before you get around to the back, but ventilation operations still must be conducted for Alpha and Bravo, but be careful not to pull the fire to that side by either the initial attack or by crews venting.

    If things go south quickly then deck guns and or 2 Ĺ lines can be used outside for suppression. (Last resort).

    But on the other hand, a quick attack from the front (large diameter line or deck gun) followed up by an aggressive interior attack might work

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    Default ?

    Originally posted by captjab
    Ventilation wont be so hard on this one, being that itís probably going to vent itís self before you get around to the back, but ventilation operations still must be conducted for Alpha and Bravo, but be careful not to pull the fire to that side by either the initial attack or by crews venting.
    Good point...How about a good strip vent between the garage
    and the rest of the house. It would work well.

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    I don't know about the rest of you, but I am still trying to figure out what the hell that is. I've never seen a brick "driveway" with grass stipes in it. What part of that is a garage and what part of it is a house/hallway/living area? You can't tell looking at it.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Originally posted by nmfire
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I am still trying to figure out what the hell that is. I've never seen a brick "driveway" with grass stipes in it. What part of that is a garage and what part of it is a house/hallway/living area? You can't tell looking at it.
    I think each strip of grass is a drive way in it's self. You car will straddle the grass, so given that, this would be a 3 car garage, but the car port on the left is awful small, but you can see in each car port,there seems to be a vehicle of some sort in there.

    We had a fire 2 months ago, where the occupant had his BBQ going and the gas hose broke off (rotten) and fire shot right up into his attic. He had his gas grill too close to the house. This picture looks just like the back of his house in just a little over 5 min.

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    First and foremost, I would do a 360!
    Lots of fire in the front, whats going on in the back?
    Do I have a Life Safety issue?
    Is there an entry into the structure from the back that may work better than going in the front door?
    Can we use the front door for an exposure line?
    The roof looks high in the front..is there a room over?
    Has the fire extended to the attic?
    Is this just a car fire in the garage that hasn't extended into the structure?
    That is a large volume of fire visible from the front, can I hit the fire with a deck gun and at least darken it down enough to finish the job with hand lines?

    Its tough to say what my tactics would be without seeing the "Big Picture" to many people get caught up in what they see at first without doing a 360 to take in the rest.
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    Question A Second Look................

    After reading, and thinking about, the posts thus far, I went back and looked at the photo again. I don't have a clue about the bricks. The idea of driving in and out on brick strips is plausible, but unusual. Driveways here are usually Asphalt: 60%, Concrete: 38%, Everything else: 2%. Although the autos in the garage are obscured, they, or something, is in there that is feeding the Fire. Dark orange flame and black smoke are sure signs of a high fuel load from hydrocarbon products. Any thoughts on that? And Roofhook has a point in the "Do a 360" approach. We have homes that are similar to this one, in that the garage is closest to the street, with a walkway past the garage to the house. When you go down the walkway, you find that the garage is separated from the house by a Patio. Is this garage connected to the house? The Garage is certainly the dominating feature here, even if it weren't on Fire.
    Last edited by hwoods; 09-06-2004 at 09:55 AM.
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    It would appear looking at the roofline that the garage/living space are joined.If you have access from the C side and adequate crew this incident will respond favorably to a heavy handline attack from the C side.Particularly if these lines are foam capable.The open garage doors allow you to quickly and efficiently push the fire out thru them.We had the misfortune of making a tactical error on a incident similar to this one.A gun was employed without first checking on the firewall side.The results were less than desirable.If I could, I'd "push"this one out the front(A side).Nothing smaller than a 2"on this job,2.5 preferred.An interesting picture,how did it pan out?T.C.

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    We have a CAFS Type 3 wildland pumper that would be realy neat to use at this fire. It has a front bumper mounted 1.5 inch monitor.

    I would put the smothbore ont it, set to wet foam, and go airport crash truck style up the dirveway and try for a quick knowdown, the truck has 800 gallons.

    I would take our 1000/1000 pumper and stretch a line into the house and search for extension/occupants.

    Its hard to tell if there is much smoke in the main part of the house, looks like most of the heat/smoke is coming out the front of the garage.

    Hopefully the CAFS with smoothbore will get in there and knock down the fire without pushing it to hard back. I would imagine that there is a door between the garage and the house, have to watch that close.

    I would also put the drop tank down and start a water shuttle since we have no hyrants.
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    It's a little hard to make a definate decision based on 1 view. At least pulling up, I'm going to see 2 sides, (front & B or D). I have to make my comments based on the response my City would make, 2-E, 1-Trk, Squad & Batt Chief (about 17 members). When I'm on the seat of the engine co and seeing that much fire, I'm leading in. Whether or not I just wrap and go, or leave a man to hookup, will be a situational decision. I'm very inclined to hit it through the garage doors with my 500 gallons thru the deckpipe(1-1/2 smooth bore). It's been my experience that if you knock down the bulk of the fire real quick like, the whole rest of the job is easier. 500 gallons in 20-30 seconds will definately put a big dent in it. Sure, you might push stuff into the house, but that is inevitable. With that much fire showing, it's probably getting into the house pretty quick anyway.I definately would not waste my water by using a 1-3/4 precon into the garage. Not nearly enough balls to kill the fire.

    Hopefully my 5" is getting filled, or the 2nd due engine is pulling up. Next move would be a 1-3/4 or more probably a 2" through the front door. I'll send the 2nd line to the back.

    In similar situations, where we opted to try to make entry through the front to "cut it off", we got pasted. I would rather move my crew through a lot of steam rather than try to fight through "hot black". It's hard to determine from the outside if the garage door into the house is open or not, my thinking on this one is that it's probably closed,(no signs of smoke from the rest of the house). My truckies will start to vent, from rear if easy enough to access. The Squadies are going in behind the nozzle crew to start searching. Probably would not waste my time trying to do any major roof venting before attacking though. The time needed to do that will give the fire even more headway. I probably would have them up there pretty quick, because chances are it's in the attic too, and i want to get the crappy stuff up off the guys ASAP.

    Some people might criticize pushing a lot of steam into the house when there might be occupants, but you are probably not going to get to them in time if the fire is already blowing into the living areas. I have found that killing as much fire as soon as you can is definately a winner in enhancing conditions inside, where any victims MIGHT be, and my crews definately ARE going.

    Rob G.
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    Default What I know...

    -The driveway- I know, kinda funny. I am thinking that it is
    kinda nice because you cant see any oil drippings and/or stains.

    -I dont know the outcome of the fire. It is from the Orange
    County FD, CA since I worked for them part-time, I am guessing
    they fought it from the inside-out.

    -Deck gun/Monitor- I like this idea when it comes to a quick
    hard knockdown. And I do mean quick- 30 seconds. A Captain
    can use the gun while his/her FF is pulling handlines.
    Fast, quick and effective.

    -Strip cut ventilation- Between garage the rest of the house.
    I was hoping to get more feedback on this one.

    Thnaks so far for your responses. It is always nice to brush up
    learn more.

    -Bou
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 09-06-2004 at 02:04 PM.

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    I know damn well thats not my driveway with no oil stains on it...LOL.

    A thought about roof work on this type of house. I HATE tile roofs. They are way too slippery, drop too many big chunks down, and you have to take tiles off (I usually take a sledge hammer up on tile roofs) before you can get to the roof deck.

    As far as a trench cut on a residence of this type, by the time you get done with it, a) the fire is out or b) it's comming down beneath you. Trenching takes a bit of time to accomplish. With a real good truck crew, utilizing 2 or more saws, it might happen reletively quick,but I wouldn't bet on it. Don't get me wrong, I will order topside vent on a routine basis, but put a nice 4x8 up there, and you will suck a lot of smoke heat and sometimes fire right out the top. Do it and get down though. I'll bet my next paycheck that the building in the picture had crappy old OSB over gusset plated 2x4 truss members for a roof. Sometimes you can even stomp a quick hole in this crap before you have to move back to the ladder.

    Stay safe

    Rob

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    bou, I was thinking blitz attack with the deck gun on the exterior fire OVER the garage doors, not pushing fire back in. This would darken things down, letting you get a better sizeup, and giving the hose team time to stretch the line. But on closer look, it looks like there could be windows on the second floor over the bays also blowing fire. In which case, it would be the same as shooting into the bays. Your life hazard and water supply would dictate whether shooting INTO windows/bays is appropriate on not.

    as for a trench or strip cut (east/west coast term difference) you need to get good interior recon from your first due truck's inside team, and your second due truck's getting to work on the roof (maybe another company to help them) QUICKLY and safely. Yes, it's an option, but success will be determined by how fast your resources arrive on scene, and how well trained they are in these operations, particularly on a tile roof (uncommon around here).
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    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
    We have a CAFS Type 3 wildland pumper that would be realy neat to use at this fire. It has a front bumper mounted 1.5 inch monitor.

    I would put the smothbore ont it, set to wet foam, and go airport crash truck style up the dirveway and try for a quick knowdown
    Now that would be a sight!
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    I agree that with this kind of roof I would not trench cut it. From what I see in on view I go with one of 2 things.........the lay in deck gun approach, or in my opinion lead off with the 2 and a half's. If there is a life safety issue then you gotta try and do that first, from what I saw just to the right of the front door, the whiteish smoke makes me think this is already in attic .........good pic Bou.
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    Here is my $.02
    We are on the A side. We can see the 3 car garage Fully involved. (double door on the right single at the left ((the driveway is a bit extravagant but not uncommon around here))). The peak is way to high for their not to be rooms up there.
    To the left of the front door is a living room, behind that a dining room, straight on is the kitchen and I would put money on a rec room on the C/D corner of the home.
    Just a short distance in you will most likely find stairs to the second floor (running across the home B to D)
    1st line a 2.5" (1.75 will not bring the garage under control) hit the garage from the outside to darken it a bit. Then through the front door. Second line possibly the first in the structure through the front door and based on conditions up the stairs.
    Their is a very good chance the fire spread through auto exposure to the second floor.

    Trench cut is not appropriate for this structure. Their could be skylights that may help. Based on fire volume, and roof construction, you may not want to put anyone on the roof.

    On a 360 you probably have windows on the C side that would be great for VES.

    Great picture, where did you find it?

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    As for the grass strips...about 400' of my 500' driveway is that way...you think I'm paying for trap rock for somewhere tires don't go!!!!!! Just set the bucket a little higher on the tractor then I would if plowing pavement

    Now onto the fire:

    1. 360 is essential. Yes, you can start thinking about what to do, but if you find the fire venting out a rear garage window...and impinging a propane tank that could change you tactical priorities just a wee bit.

    The other thing I want to know is if the fire is inside the house -- I agree with ADSN, sure looks like a room above the garage there. Next question is if it's living space accessed from a central hall, or a "Man Town" accessed from within the garage.

    Way you'll know that is to get up to the front door and take a look. If the interior is clear, then you dart in and size up the layout -- is their a central hall, and does it look like it leads up?

    2. Let's assume 2 things:
    One, the inside of the house is relatively clear.
    Two, the life hazard is unknown.

    The next decision is made on your manpower.

    2 hose teams, 1 "truck" team, and good water supply:

    Rescue -- Ok, gotta search the house. Put a hoseline in the front door (1.75") to keep the fire from extending while a search team does a primary
    Exposures -- not a problem.
    Confine -- This is part of the Rescue puzzle, use Water if necessary to Confine the fire while search is under way.
    Extinguish -- While interior hose team & search is underway, bring up a 2.5" line. Maybe even the "bomb" line -- start at the "Bravo" side of the fire and work towards your right, parrallel to the living area, to knock down the fire. Ah, scratch the bomb line, a 2.5" with a 15/16", 1", or 1-1/8" tip would do a good job with more mobility.
    Overhaul...with the consideration that 2nd floor above the garage is probably severely compromised, may have to just pour a lot of water in there and bring in heavy equipment to remove it.

    Water is our main weapon here, fire looks pretty darn well vented.
    Ventilation might be called for if we have people in the living area, couple 4x4s in the roof to limit fire spread.
    Salvage as we have manpower for -- might be the oppurtonity for a lot of it if we knock the fire in garage, but find ourselves putting out an attic fire over the main part of the house afterwards.

    If you find yourself w/o manpower to do two lines & search decently, I'd say best way to implement Rescue is to knock the fire down and buy yourself time until good staffing arrives to complete a search.
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    WEll where i come from for a job like this we're dealing with altrast 2 engines, 1 quint, a rescue, and additional mutual aid if needed. My first engine on scene would take the hydrant and use a deckgun for a quick knockdown. Next due is the quint so i'd use the pre-pipe to contol the fire while waiting for additional units. As this was goin on have a crew take a wated-wye off the engine to the C side. Also a crew ready to take a line into the front door. As soon as the next engine and rescue were on scene i would switch from a master stream opperation to an interior handline opperation( only if structurallypossible).Fire should be pretty well knocked down at this point.

    Ok i'm only wearing a black helmet at this time so if anyone with a little more experience wants to give me some advice lets hear it..
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    I agree with ADSNWFLD, no trench venting. I don't think I'd put anyone on the roof just due to the weight of the tiles and possible guset plates. come in swinging and hit it with the masterstream.

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