1. #1
    Early Adopter
    cozmosis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    1,925

    Angry Out of Grade Pay

    Per city policy, a member of my department must work 60 days in a higher position before they are eligble for out-of-grade pay. On my shift, the senior guy (an engineer) has been acting captain since July 24. He's had the responsibilities of captain but won't get compensated for it until after Sept. 21. That's 20 or 21 shifts where the city/department had someone doing a captain's work without paying him for it.

    Today, my chief said that such a 60-day policy isn't uncommon. Obviously, many of our members disagree and find the policy as it stands to be unfair. That's where you guys come in. How does it work in your department? Get paid hour for hour out of grade? Get paid a whole shift for working a portion out of grade? Something else?

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default out of grade pay...

    We have out of grade pay for Lieutenants replacing the Captain on the group when he is out and out of grade pay for Firefighters when the Lieutenants are out. You work a tour out of grade, you get paid for it... no 60 day out of grade/in grade period.

    Our Deputy Chiefs are not included in the minimum staffing level, therefore, when the Deputy is out and the Captain assumes the duties of the Deputy Chief, he gets the glory and responsibility (not to mention the blame when the defacation hits the oscillation)but not the compensation
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    KENTUCKY
    Posts
    410

    Default

    City policy says that an employee in acting capacity gets compensated after 14 days. Never been pursued by FD, because no one usually rides that many duty days consecutively. In another division, director would have an employee in acting capacity for 13 days, boot them back down for a day, then put them back in acting. Enough S$%T finally raised that he got "corrected".

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    The policy here is, if you work 12 hrs or more out-of-grade, you get paid. The out of grade follows.

    Firefighter acts as Firefighter Driver
    Firefighter Driver acts as Fire Engine Operator
    Senior Firefighter acts as Sergeant
    Captain acts as Battalion Chief

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    gunnyv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    SE MI
    Posts
    1,436

    Default

    My dept upgrades the senior firefighter in a company when the officer is off. Any time upgraded in excess of 2 hrs is paid at that rate. We upgrade to Lt and BC only, not Captain. Captain's responsibilities are administrative, otherwise they are just senior company officers, so if a Capt is off for the day the FF who fills his spot gets Lt pay. Our Dept promptly fills vacancies, so we haven't had a problem with long term upgrades. If the BC is off and a Captain is not available, the senior Lt on duty fills in with full BC pay.
    We don't have a position for drivers/FEO/Engineer, all firefighters drive once off probation.

  6. #6
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    In St. Paul, we have the same policy as FireLT1951. 12 Hours of working out of title and you are compensated as such.

    Firefighter as Fire Equipment Operator
    FEO as Captain
    Firefighter as Captain
    Captian as Dist. Chief*
    Dist Chief* as Deputy*
    (*-different union)
    FEO, Captain, and Dist. Chief are tested promotions. Deputy is appointed.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    NorcalMike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Red voter in a Blue State
    Posts
    93

    Default

    My department pays 5% premium for out of class work. To be eligible you must be on the current promotional list for the position you are filling. The 5% is on an hourly basis. If I work out of class for one hour I get get the 5% on that hour. No waiting periods.

    Mike Teague
    Firefighter/Paramedic
    Metro Fire Sacramento

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    584

    Default

    My department says we can work out of grade without compensation for a "reasonable" amount of time, generally this is considered 90 days and they can detail (promote somebody with pay) without compitition for up to 120 days. In theory we can work out of grade for 89 days, work a shift at grade and work another 89 days, it happens occasionally but normally the detail would get rotated to the next person.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Rescue21D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    134

    Default Out of title pay

    In our department you have to work 20 shifts out of title before you start getting paid for them. So from the 21st shift and on, every time you work out of title, you get paid. This restarts at the first of the year, no carry over.
    Captain/EMT-P

  10. #10
    former FH.com member

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    860

    Smile lucky I guess

    We get paid for EVERY hour of upgrading. IMHO that's how it should be for everyone.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    31

    Default

    No one works out of grade! What is the purpose of having a grade if people can work out of it? We say promote someone or hire overtime.

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    46

    Default

    We have a driver position, kinda like seargent rank, I guess. So, ff-driver, driver to LT, LT to Capt. is paid hour for hour out of rank.

  13. #13
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    SW OHIO
    Posts
    5

    Default

    We pay "acting" pay (ex. acting LT.,Capt., D/C, Medic, Ap. Op.) after 4 hrs.
    While it would be fairer to pay hour-for-hour, I guess this saves on paperwork when someone is only off for an hour or so. If the opening is for more than the 4 hours, then you get paid for all the hours, not minus the 1st four. The senior Lt in station gets "acting capt. " pay when the station captain is off for 3 consecutive shifts or more.

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC USA
    Posts
    115

    Default

    In DC, the regulations allow acting in a higher grade for 120 days without compensation. Individual bargaining units in the different city agencies can bargain for lower acting periods, but it comes with a price, as does everything in contract negotiations.

  15. #15
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Syracuse , NY
    Posts
    138

    Default

    In Syracuse, we run 4 shifts.3 have Lts. and 1 has a Capt.

    If the Capt. position is open for 30 days,the senior Lt. gets the extra pay.

    That is the ONLY time we work out of title.We have a thing here called "rank for rank". If a Lt. is off,the city must replace with a Lt. A District Chief must be replaced with a D/C.

    As flamebuster said,what's the use of having grades if you let people work out of them?

  16. #16
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    What is the purpose of having a grade if people can work out of it?
    As flamebuster said,what's the use of having grades if you let people work out of them?
    In every other skilled building trade, ie; pipefitters, electricians, iron workers, elevator mechanics, there is provisions to allow apprentices to work up as journeymen. Much like the fire service having people work out of title. The major reason for this is to allow the apprentice to work at a journey level and optain the skills required to work in that position effectively once they are turned out or promoted. I feel that a firefighter is a skilled trade and should be trained as one a treated as one. Now when it comes to scheduled overtime, those in title should get the call first, then go to the firefighter ranks.
    Honestly, do think pretending you are a captain at a couple of simulated sinarios in a classroom or driving the apperatus around a few cones gives the individual the EXPERIANCE to do the job safely?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    31

    Default

    SP, I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Surely, you are not suggesting we just let anyone who wants to “act” like an officer to move up and lead the hose attack or to oversee the fire operations? I agree that the job is one that should be apprenticed but not at the officer rank. I believe that an officer should have shown some form of proficiency by testing and by years of experience on the job.

    I don't know about all fire departments but in mine they only wanted to use acting personnel to save money. Since we got rid of it there has been no downside that I have seen.

    It is funny how these things always get couched in something that will help the employee when they are really all about saving money.

  18. #18
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Syracuse , NY
    Posts
    138

    Default

    Once again I agree with Flamebuster.In my City,our old Chief decided to save money by using FF as acting Officers instead of hiring LTs and Captains.

    We got together,backed to right guy for Mayor (a guy whose Father and Brother were both FF's)and got a new Chief in the process.Our legal bills have gone way down since then.The new Chief actually listens to us and we listen to him.Both side working together without a lawyer.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,098

    Default

    Off Topic:

    FireLt1951, what is the difference in a Firefighter/Driver and a Fire Equipment Operator? Is the "Driver" term used to denote the Tiller Man? I think Baltimore City has different titles for Tillermen in their Job descriptions....
    Proud Right-Wing Extremist since 1992

    "Extreme Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"- Michael Savage

  20. #20
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    I don't know about all fire departments but in mine they only wanted to use acting personnel to save money. Since we got rid of it there has been no downside that I have seen.
    It is funny how these things always get couched in something that will help the employee when they are really all about saving money.
    On your first quote, I'll agree, St. Paul has done the same thing, work people outof title so save money. Which is wrong, and as a union, we have been trying to stem the tide.
    On your second quote, I'll just requote myself:
    Now when it comes to scheduled overtime, those in title should get the call first, then go to the firefighter ranks.
    So I haven't been "coached" on anything.
    Most working out of title are on the promotion list for that position. I didn't say I agreed with it or even like it, but, it's about all we can do. We are a 400 person fire department that has a structured recruit academy. This doesn't happen avery other month. Nor do we hire every time someone retires. So in the interum, those positions need to be filled.
    So really, the point I'm making is the world isn't going to come to an end if some one works out of title. it may even be benificial if not abused.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Originally posted by Flamebuster
    No one works out of grade! What is the purpose of having a grade if people can work out of it? We say promote someone or hire overtime.
    I would agree, except that its fantastic training for the people who are looking to get promoted someday. How do your newer guys ever get experiance? How else can you know if someone is "fit' for promotion if they never sit in the seat? And dont tell me exams, thats only part of it.

    Dave

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Originally posted by Dave1983


    I would agree, except that its fantastic training for the people who are looking to get promoted someday. How do your newer guys ever get experiance? How else can you know if someone is "fit' for promotion if they never sit in the seat? And dont tell me exams, thats only part of it.

    Dave
    I would venture a guess and say in 99% of the departments who pay out of grade for a Firefighter to be acting LT, the position goes to the senior fireighter in the house. Just because one is a senior firefighter does not equate with his ability to take over the company. A guy can be on for 20+ years and be as dumb as a tree stump... does that qualify him to make command decisions?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  23. #23
    Early Adopter
    cozmosis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    1,925

    Default

    Here's the situation in my department...

    We're a combo. department of public station with one station and minimum staffing of one. We are supplemented with police officers xtrained as FFs and volunteers -- both whom respond directly to the scene. Two of our three shifts consist of a captain and engineer. The third shift (my shift) should actually have a captain and two engineers. The captain, however, is out on long-term light duty.

    What should we do? There is no one on the promotion list to promote. There is no one currently eligble or willing to take a captain's test. The only option is for the senior engineer on my shift to act as captain. I see no problem with this arrangement.

    The situation that started this thread -- the amount of time one must serve out of grade to be paid for it -- is looking worse in my department. When if asked if my shift's acting captain will be paid for his work... our chief says he's "working on it." All signs point to the fact that he's going to try to stiff this FF.

    Civil service rules in my city say that an emergency must be declared in order for a person acting out of grade to be paid for that service. The general consensus among firefighters is that our chief is going to try to use this rule to avoid paying our guy. This is still up in the air right now and will be for about a week.

  24. #24
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    I would venture a guess and say in 99% of the departments who pay out of grade for a Firefighter to be acting LT, the position goes to the senior fireighter in the house.
    That's were we are different, most out of title goes to those on the "passed waiting to advance" list. So other than being made, they have met and passed all the requirements to be promoted. I will admit, at times when the list is exhausted or tapped, the OOT will go to the senior Rum on that rig. But the Captian has input if that may be a poor decision.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo


    I would venture a guess and say in 99% of the departments who pay out of grade for a Firefighter to be acting LT, the position goes to the senior fireighter in the house. Just because one is a senior firefighter does not equate with his ability to take over the company. A guy can be on for 20+ years and be as dumb as a tree stump... does that qualify him to make command decisions?
    Gonzo, I would hope your wrong on that 99%. In my county, all the departments handle it the same.

    Too act as an officer, you have to either be Fire Officer I certified or have a majority of the classes. As for back-up drivers, they have to be EVOC and pump certified, have X amount of hours driver training and be checked off by the training officer on each apparatus.

    Some may say all that does is take OT away from other FF's. Yes and no. For example, on my engine co. we have a primary driver (me) and a back-up. If we are both off, OT is hired. So yes it does cut down on OT, but you cant beat the training and it experiance it gives the back-up driver.

    Dave

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register