Out of Grade Pay

[cozmosis]

Per city policy, a member of my department must work 60 days in a higher position before they are eligble for out-of-grade pay. On my shift, the senior guy (an engineer) has been acting captain since July 24. He's had the responsibilities of captain but won't get compensated for it until after Sept. 21. That's 20 or 21 shifts where the city/department had someone doing a captain's work without paying him for it.

Today, my chief said that such a 60-day policy isn't uncommon. Obviously, many of our members disagree and find the policy as it stands to be unfair. That's where you guys come in. How does it work in your department? Get paid hour for hour out of grade? Get paid a whole shift for working a portion out of grade? Something else?

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

We have out of grade pay for Lieutenants replacing the Captain on the group when he is out and out of grade pay for Firefighters when the Lieutenants are out. You work a tour out of grade, you get paid for it... no 60 day out of grade/in grade period.

Our Deputy Chiefs are not included in the minimum staffing level, therefore, when the Deputy is out and the Captain assumes the duties of the Deputy Chief, he gets the glory and responsibility (not to mention the blame when the defacation hits the oscillation)but not the compensation

[LFD2203]

City policy says that an employee in acting capacity gets compensated after 14 days. Never been pursued by FD, because no one usually rides that many duty days consecutively. In another division, director would have an employee in acting capacity for 13 days, boot them back down for a day, then put them back in acting. Enough S$%T finally raised that he got "corrected".

[FireCapt1951retired]

The policy here is, if you work 12 hrs or more out-of-grade, you get paid. The out of grade follows.

Firefighter acts as Firefighter Driver
Firefighter Driver acts as Fire Engine Operator
Senior Firefighter acts as Sergeant
Captain acts as Battalion Chief

[gunnyv]

My dept upgrades the senior firefighter in a company when the officer is off. Any time upgraded in excess of 2 hrs is paid at that rate. We upgrade to Lt and BC only, not Captain. Captain's responsibilities are administrative, otherwise they are just senior company officers, so if a Capt is off for the day the FF who fills his spot gets Lt pay. Our Dept promptly fills vacancies, so we haven't had a problem with long term upgrades. If the BC is off and a Captain is not available, the senior Lt on duty fills in with full BC pay.
We don't have a position for drivers/FEO/Engineer, all firefighters drive once off probation.

[SPFDRum]

In St. Paul, we have the same policy as FireLT1951. 12 Hours of working out of title and you are compensated as such.

Firefighter as Fire Equipment Operator
FEO as Captain
Firefighter as Captain
Captian as Dist. Chief*
Dist Chief* as Deputy*
(*-different union)
FEO, Captain, and Dist. Chief are tested promotions. Deputy is appointed.

[NorcalMike]

My department pays 5% premium for out of class work. To be eligible you must be on the current promotional list for the position you are filling. The 5% is on an hourly basis. If I work out of class for one hour I get get the 5% on that hour. No waiting periods.

Mike Teague
Firefighter/Paramedic
Metro Fire Sacramento

[NonSurfinCaFF]

My department says we can work out of grade without compensation for a "reasonable" amount of time, generally this is considered 90 days and they can detail (promote somebody with pay) without compitition for up to 120 days. In theory we can work out of grade for 89 days, work a shift at grade and work another 89 days, it happens occasionally but normally the detail would get rotated to the next person.

[Rescue21D]

In our department you have to work 20 shifts out of title before you start getting paid for them. So from the 21st shift and on, every time you work out of title, you get paid. This restarts at the first of the year, no carry over.

[SAFD46Truck]

We get paid for EVERY hour of upgrading. IMHO that's how it should be for everyone.

[Flamebuster]

No one works out of grade! What is the purpose of having a grade if people can work out of it? We say promote someone or hire overtime.

[engine4cLT]

We have a driver position, kinda like seargent rank, I guess. So, ff-driver, driver to LT, LT to Capt. is paid hour for hour out of rank.

[Quint5]

We pay "acting" pay (ex. acting LT.,Capt., D/C, Medic, Ap. Op.) after 4 hrs.
While it would be fairer to pay hour-for-hour, I guess this saves on paperwork when someone is only off for an hour or so. If the opening is for more than the 4 hours, then you get paid for all the hours, not minus the 1st four. The senior Lt in station gets "acting capt. " pay when the station captain is off for 3 consecutive shifts or more.

[oldE6man]

In DC, the regulations allow acting in a higher grade for 120 days without compensation. Individual bargaining units in the different city agencies can bargain for lower acting periods, but it comes with a price, as does everything in contract negotiations.

[Parrothead]

In Syracuse, we run 4 shifts.3 have Lts. and 1 has a Capt.

If the Capt. position is open for 30 days,the senior Lt. gets the extra pay.

That is the ONLY time we work out of title.We have a thing here called "rank for rank". If a Lt. is off,the city must replace with a Lt. A District Chief must be replaced with a D/C.

As flamebuster said,what's the use of having grades if you let people work out of them?

[SPFDRum]

What is the purpose of having a grade if people can work out of it?

As flamebuster said,what's the use of having grades if you let people work out of them?

In every other skilled building trade, ie; pipefitters, electricians, iron workers, elevator mechanics, there is provisions to allow apprentices to work up as journeymen. Much like the fire service having people work out of title. The major reason for this is to allow the apprentice to work at a journey level and optain the skills required to work in that position effectively once they are turned out or promoted. I feel that a firefighter is a skilled trade and should be trained as one a treated as one. Now when it comes to scheduled overtime, those in title should get the call first, then go to the firefighter ranks.
Honestly, do think pretending you are a captain at a couple of simulated sinarios in a classroom or driving the apperatus around a few cones gives the individual the EXPERIANCE to do the job safely?

[Flamebuster]

SP, I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Surely, you are not suggesting we just let anyone who wants to “act” like an officer to move up and lead the hose attack or to oversee the fire operations? I agree that the job is one that should be apprenticed but not at the officer rank. I believe that an officer should have shown some form of proficiency by testing and by years of experience on the job.

I don't know about all fire departments but in mine they only wanted to use acting personnel to save money. Since we got rid of it there has been no downside that I have seen.

It is funny how these things always get couched in something that will help the employee when they are really all about saving money.

[Parrothead]

Once again I agree with Flamebuster.In my City,our old Chief decided to save money by using FF as acting Officers instead of hiring LTs and Captains.

We got together,backed to right guy for Mayor (a guy whose Father and Brother were both FF's)and got a new Chief in the process.Our legal bills have gone way down since then.The new Chief actually listens to us and we listen to him.Both side working together without a lawyer.

[TillerMan25]

Off Topic:

FireLt1951, what is the difference in a Firefighter/Driver and a Fire Equipment Operator? Is the "Driver" term used to denote the Tiller Man? I think Baltimore City has different titles for Tillermen in their Job descriptions....

[SPFDRum]

I don't know about all fire departments but in mine they only wanted to use acting personnel to save money. Since we got rid of it there has been no downside that I have seen.

It is funny how these things always get couched in something that will help the employee when they are really all about saving money.

On your first quote, I'll agree, St. Paul has done the same thing, work people outof title so save money. Which is wrong, and as a union, we have been trying to stem the tide.
On your second quote, I'll just requote myself:

Now when it comes to scheduled overtime, those in title should get the call first, then go to the firefighter ranks.

So I haven't been "coached" on anything.
Most working out of title are on the promotion list for that position. I didn't say I agreed with it or even like it, but, it's about all we can do. We are a 400 person fire department that has a structured recruit academy. This doesn't happen avery other month. Nor do we hire every time someone retires. So in the interum, those positions need to be filled.
So really, the point I'm making is the world isn't going to come to an end if some one works out of title. it may even be benificial if not abused.