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  1. #1
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    Default Any way you look at it, say no to Kerry

    Lets just skip past Kerry's own multiple stories about his service in Vietman. Forward to his homecoming when, after receiving 3 purple owies, that he admitted to commiting war crimes before the Senate.

    If he committed war the crimes he described and admitted to, then he absolutely is unfit to be president.

    If he lied to the Senate about committing war crimes, then he is unfit to be president.

    If he committed the war crimes, and he was unaware of them being crimes until he got back, as he said, then he was a poor student in his officers schools. Officer friends of mine in the military say that "rules of war" is the one of first things gone over in officer schools. So "I didn't know" is his excuse, then he failed to prepare himself, thus exposing anyone he served with/for/above. (After being exposed to his rhetoric, I'd say this is typical of him) Another reason he is unfit to be president.

    His statement that he would not send troops into Iraq without proper body armor, when he himself voted against the appropriations for personal body armor? Another checkmark in the unfit box.

    His statement that the day he becomes president, Congress will have new health care legislation in front of them? He's been in the Senate for 20 years. Is there any record of him introducing any health care legislation? Why wait until now?

    A week or so ago, he received a "gift" of a shotgun from a "fan". Lets just say that in receiving this shotgun he got a gun with features that he doesn't want the general populace to have, and he broke several laws and regulations in receiving this gun. The person giving him this gun is guilty of a "staw purchase". On general principles, I am for law abiding citizens to be able to purchase firearms whereever. But in his case, with his track record, they should charge him. By accepting this gift, he is putting himself above the law. Where are the jackbooted BATF goons when you need someone arrested on a technicality? Hmm, do as I say, not as I do. Yet another reason Kerry is unfit to be a dogcatcher, let alone POTUS.

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    It seems that the media didn't see this presentation. Because being the "fair" media that they are they would surely have called him on it. Oh that's right they are only fair when it goes against the GOP. There is no way that they are going to ask Hanoi John anything difficult. I am sure he will deny even getting the gun when he is talking to the anti-gun crowd. I sure hope the voters of this country are not stupid enough to vote in Hanoi John. God help us.

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    I couldn't agree more. JK's a career politician who'll say whatever you want to hear, and throws out fancy sounding soundbites while never quite backing them up. The thought of him being president scares me.

    Good thing there's a better option... Oh, wait, there's not- just some guy who's admitted he'd let others make policy decisions for him, has a dismal environmental record, and seems to have spent more time planning his re-election campaign than he did planning the occupation of post-war Iraq (and no, I'm not against the Iraq war). The thought of Bush being re-elected doesn't get me too excited, either.

    Forgive me for sounding cynical, but the way I see it (I'm not one of these guys who latches onto a party, and refuses to admit that "my" candidate has any shortcomings), we're $crewed either way.

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    Default Perspective, King Hippo

    KingHippo - Is this a bait and switch?

    I'm voting for Bush, and agree with many but not all of his policies.

    But I'm curious - what "dismal" environmental policies are solely GWs?

    And the statements about "post war" Iraq are misleading. How long did we take to get out of Japan and Germany (and we haven't gotten totally out of germany, even after 49 years) after the close of WWII.

    While any loss of life of our military personnel is bad, it is very light compared to the aftermath of WWII.

    We're still in that "quagmire" called Korea

    Come to think of it, after 10 year's, don't we have troops in Kosovo?

    We're in Iraq right now because the UN didn't want Bush the elder agreed before Desert Storm to liberate Kuwait and go no further.

    Are our arabian ventures perfect? No. But in a realistic, historic view they are pretty good. Elections in Afghanistan after 3 years. This is compared to an approx 100 year failed English attempt to colonize. The Soviet Union, bringing themselves to bear on Afghanistan for 20 years (and they are neighbors to the Afghans, so to speak)didn't accomplish what we did with relatively few troops over the span of several years. Iraq is only a quagmire when viewed through the scope of 24/7 cable news networks by people who have become used to all problems being worked out within an hour drama or a two hour movie.

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    From the Drudge Report...

    KERRY POLL RANK LOWER THAN DUKAKIS, JESSE JACKSON, MARTHA STEWART, PUTIN
    Tue Sep 14 2004 12:06:00 ET

    In last week's WASHINGTONPOSTWABCNEWS Poll, John F. Kerry was viewed favorably by 36 percent of registered voters, down 18 points over the past six months.

    But just how low Kerry's standing has fallen cannot be appreciated fully without comparing his standing with that of other household names in GALLUP polls over the years, the POST's Dana Milbank reported on Tuesday.

    Kerry finds himself in a dead heat with Martha Stewart and Joseph McCarthy, and behind Herbert Hoover -- although he narrowly beats O.J. Simpson.

    Michael Jordan: 83 (2000)

    Tony Blair: 76 (2003)

    Pope John Paul II: 73 (2003)

    Democratic Party: 54 (2004)

    John Ashcroft: 49 (2003)

    Michael Dukakis: 47 (1988)

    Prince Charles: 45 (2003)

    Herbert Hoover: 43 (1944)

    Jesse Jackson: 38 (2003)

    Vladimir Putin: 38 (2003)

    John Kerry: 36 (2004)

    Martha Stewart: 36 (2004)

    Joseph McCarthy: 35 (1954)

    END

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    Nope, no bait and switch- just wondering how, with well over 250 million people in this country, we're stuck choosing between these two guys.

    There's no way anyone could invade a country, overthrow the government, and then have things nice and peaceful by dinner time. Of course there's going to be a period of strife. But, I do think that the whole occupation thing could have been planned out quite a bit better (not enough troops, not enough jobs, not enough security). Although I don't think things are as bad as the mainstream media would you believe (NPR reporters state that they're enjoying themselves over there; the've made friends and they go out to eat every night without problems), they're certainly not as rosy as they said before the war ("we'll be greeted as liberators"- and they were in many cases, but the last poll I saw showed that quite a large number of Iraqis want the US troops out).

    I'm certainly not arguing against the war, but I do think that the administration could have done a lot more post-war planning.

    And as far as environmental issues go, I wasn't to keen on the way he backed out of the Kyoto treaty, opposed improved gas mileage standards and increased the permitted level of arsenic in drinking water. I'm no sandal wearing longhair, but I am kind of fond of this environment of ours.

    And I certainly can't imagine GHW Bush sitting there reading a children's book for 7 minutes while his country was under attack- We need to bring that guy back.

    I know most of you are Bush supporters, and I respect that, but I just can't get excited about the guy. Niether can I get excited about Kerry. Maybe in 2008 we'll get some decent candidates (Powell, Ron Reagan, Somebody!). Until then, I'm going to lock myself in the basement with my Gamecube and my Capatin Morgan.

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    Default while we are off track

    How would the kyoto treaty benefit us?

    as to the cries of "no exit strategy", and "not enough boots on the ground", you can blame all the legislators that voted for it, before they voted against it. from both sides of the aisle.

    I will still maintain that had you had this 24/7 micro view of WWII, Korea, etc it would look much like post Saddam Iraq.

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    pfd, that picture is GREAT. It is on the way to a few friends.

    Now as for heavier matters:

    I also supported, and continue to support the war. The weapons are somewhere and will be found either in Iraq or where they are now. I am not the happiest about the post war system, but I don't think we were quite as prepared for the rapid fall or how to resume the running of the nation as we needed to be. I also don't think that anyonw could be prepared to do so 100%. We are still stabilizing Afghanistan, and I do believe that we did need to move on from Afghanistan. Several thousand troops are there now.

    As for the environment, Bush could be a little more controlling on the environment. I have LOTS of problems with the Kyoto treaty, beginning with it being unfair to the US and modernized countries while having very liitle constraint on developing economies like China and India where we now see HUGE & EXPONENTIAL growth in use of fossil fuels and resources.

    On the other hand, he has restricted oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico and other locations as well. Harvesting lumber in the national forests is necessary as our forest are overgrown and unhealthy becasue of it. Fires have great stacking fuel because of it as well, so I say thin out the forests a bit and we will reap great rewards. Water standards, while relaxed I feel they are not so bad as many people claim. Water is a very special thing and needs to be taken care of, and arsenic is but one danger. What do you think all of those lawn chemicals do the water table when they get back into them?

    The CAFE gas standard is a joke. If a car is raised to certain ground clearance it is considered a light truck - my 2005 Subaru Outback wagon is considered a light truck because of this. Energy efficiency is great, but I am not quite sure I think that gas engines are able to be as tweaked as much as many claim. In order to get better mileage, you have to lighten a vehicle thereby reducing safety of passengers to an extent. While hybrids are great it will take YEARS in order to get the cars to be getting that much mileage to reduce pollutants - I am not saying that it shouldn't be done though. A HUGE problem on our roads are these poorly running cars out there that spew burnt oil into the air, have poor exhausts and sound like a train running down the road, and of course SUV and large trucks. Now if you want one of these trucks, get one - I owned a pick-up myself, but don't complain about the increased pollutants, gas prices, and other problems when you are driving something that is contributing heavily to it.

    And I certainly can't imagine GHW Bush sitting there reading a children's book for 7 minutes while his country was under attack- We need to bring that guy back.
    I am getting sick of this line being thrown out. He sat there for seven minutes. So what? Was anything going to be done that would have changed the events of the day in those 7 minutes? I must have stood in front of the TV for about 15 minutes not able to move. If he had jumped up and ran out of the room he would be derided as being reactionary. He would have startled a couple dozen kids and adults more than what they were when they heard of the events themselves. If you look closely at the footage, what I see is a guy who just found out that two high rise buildings were intentionally crashed into and potentially thousands had just died. He probably quickly reasoned that he would now have to do what I think any President dreads, and that is to order men into combat. To die. Let alone try as he may to bring a nation through this. And he didn't even yet know that 2 other aircraft were hijacked and one would crash into the Pentagon, and the other presumably targeting the White House or the Capitol. I think he handled the situation a heck of a lot better than I would have, or most others would have.

    That being said, I am not happy to be voting for Bush, but I could not EVER bring myself to vote for Kerry. I haven't done it while I was a Mass. resident and I damned sure could not do it for President. The guy scares me out of my mind.

    George,

    Remember, the more Kerry talks, the worse he does. He shows people what he wants to do and it affects how people look at him and how they judge his ability to lead. November will still be close, but the next 6 weeks will be pretty interesting to watch as he gets ripped apart. And let us not forget that McCain-Feingold kicks in so political ads are going to be restricted pretty well too.
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    King Hippo is exactly right. Kerry just wants to tell people what they want to hear. Some people have said the gun Kerry accepted would have been outlawed under a ban he voted for because of its "pistol-like grip." Kerry accepted the gun from United Mine Workers President Cecil Roberts at a Labor Day rally in Boone County, WV. For those not from West Virginia, Boone County is the hickiest county in the state. By waving the shotgun high above his head, he was trying to send the message to West Virginians that he is a "redneck" like us. I just wonder how many of my fellow West Virginians own a $9.2 million Nantucket waterfront home. Or a $5 million ski getaway/vacation home in Idaho. Or a $7 million Beacon Hill mansion in Boston. Or a $4.7 million Georgetown, D.C. home? Or how about a $3.7 million Fox Chappel, Pa. estate?

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    I also am sick and tired of "the seven minutes". Here's a thought, maybe our President was praying. I can only imagine what all of our "arm chair" experts would do in that situation.

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    "maybe our President was praying"

    When you are commander in chief, and you country is under attack, and you have no idea at all what's coming next, it is not prayer time- it's time to excuse yourself, make phone calls, and get down to business. A lot of things can happen in seven minutes. Watching him sit there reading a childrens book really bothered me. But then, I think about what JK would have done, and I'm not sure he'd have done much differently. I undertsand you're sick of hearing about the seven minutes, but you cannot possibly convince me that just sitting there was the right course of action.

    "I will still maintain that had you had this 24/7 micro view of WWII, Korea, etc it would look much like post Saddam Iraq."

    I'm sure you're right- I tend to be pretty cynical at times. But I still maintain that things could have been planned better.

    "I just wonder how many of my fellow West Virginians own a $9.2 million Nantucket waterfront home."

    Exactly. I've noticed that he's been making lots of appearences in blue shirts, no tie, with the sleeves rolled up, talking about huntin' and the "middle class struggle." I'd like to see someone ask him how much a gallon of milk costs.

    I'm thinking of writing in Lou Dobbs.

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    Default Re: Any way you look at it, say no to Kerry

    Originally posted by pfd3501
    Lets just skip past Kerry's own multiple stories about his service in Vietman. Forward to his homecoming when, after receiving 3 purple owies, that he admitted to commiting war crimes before the Senate.

    If he committed war the crimes he described and admitted to, then he absolutely is unfit to be president.

    If he lied to the Senate about committing war crimes, then he is unfit to be president.

    If he committed the war crimes, and he was unaware of them being crimes until he got back, as he said, then he was a poor student in his officers schools. Officer friends of mine in the military say that "rules of war" is the one of first things gone over in officer schools. So "I didn't know" is his excuse, then he failed to prepare himself, thus exposing anyone he served with/for/above. (After being exposed to his rhetoric, I'd say this is typical of him) Another reason he is unfit to be president.

    His statement that he would not send troops into Iraq without proper body armor, when he himself voted against the appropriations for personal body armor? Another checkmark in the unfit box.

    His statement that the day he becomes president, Congress will have new health care legislation in front of them? He's been in the Senate for 20 years. Is there any record of him introducing any health care legislation? Why wait until now?

    A week or so ago, he received a "gift" of a shotgun from a "fan". Lets just say that in receiving this shotgun he got a gun with features that he doesn't want the general populace to have, and he broke several laws and regulations in receiving this gun. The person giving him this gun is guilty of a "staw purchase". On general principles, I am for law abiding citizens to be able to purchase firearms whereever. But in his case, with his track record, they should charge him. By accepting this gift, he is putting himself above the law. Where are the jackbooted BATF goons when you need someone arrested on a technicality? Hmm, do as I say, not as I do. Yet another reason Kerry is unfit to be a dogcatcher, let alone POTUS.
    This is so much bovine scatology I don't even know where to start. Aside from the usual wacko right wing rhetoric about his Purple Hearts the assertions of perjury and treason are just so much more BS. Bush spends the Vietnam years passed out in an alcoholic stupor and Kerry is criticized for not being heroic enough? I love the logic.

    What weapon did he receive as a 'gift'? And what features did it have that made it unavailable to the general populace? Was it capable of automatic fire? Is its barrel too short? What?

    And fortunately the conservative mindset today that claims disgust regarding any type of protest or dissent wasn't the prevalent mood during the latter part of the 18th Century. If that had been the case we'd still be subjects of the Crown.

    I guess free speech only applies to conservatives.
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    Default Re: Re: Any way you look at it, say no to Kerry

    Originally posted by scfire86


    This is so much bovine scatology I don't even know where to start. Aside from the usual wacko right wing rhetoric about his Purple Hearts the assertions of perjury and treason are just so much more BS. Bush spends the Vietnam years passed out in an alcoholic stupor and Kerry is criticized for not being heroic enough? I love the logic.

    What weapon did he receive as a 'gift'? And what features did it have that made it unavailable to the general populace? Was it capable of automatic fire? Is its barrel too short? What?

    And fortunately the conservative mindset today that claims disgust regarding any type of protest or dissent wasn't the prevalent mood during the latter part of the 18th Century. If that had been the case we'd still be subjects of the Crown.

    I guess free speech only applies to conservatives.
    I love how you ignore facts and twist words.

    Your comments about the Pres. show an incredible lack of maturity and are just plain wrong.

    Secondly, by definition, providing aid and comfort to the enemy is treason. He provided aid and comfort to the enemy. He met with the VC while he was on active duty. His discharge papers on his own website show he was discharged in 1978.

    His testimony to Congress, his Winter Soldier meetings and his anti-American speeches went well beyond the bounds of "Dissent". He was so beloved by the VC that they honor him in their museum dedicated to those who helped them defeat the Americans.

    By his own admission, he is a war criminal. I didn't make it up, he said it.

    Free speech is not only for conservatives. It is for everyone. But liberals believe there is no accountability and there are no boundaries.

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Any way you look at it, say no to Kerry

    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    I love how you ignore facts and twist words.

    Your comments about the Pres. show an incredible lack of maturity and are just plain wrong.

    Secondly, by definition, providing aid and comfort to the enemy is treason. He provided aid and comfort to the enemy. He met with the VC while he was on active duty. His discharge papers on his own website show he was discharged in 1978.

    His testimony to Congress, his Winter Soldier meetings and his anti-American speeches went well beyond the bounds of "Dissent". He was so beloved by the VC that they honor him in their museum dedicated to those who helped them defeat the Americans.

    By his own admission, he is a war criminal. I didn't make it up, he said it.

    Free speech is not only for conservatives. It is for everyone. But liberals believe there is no accountability and there are no boundaries.
    He wasn't charged with treason for one reason. He didn't commit it. That is a fact. If you don't understand the charge of treason you may want to reread the Constitution.

    And we are to believe a 28 y/o just waltzed right into a Senate committee and admitted to war crimes and just walked right out without someone saying "hey didn't he just commit perjury? Didn't he just admit to war crimes?" Kerry wasn't charged with perjury because he didn't commit perjury. That is also a fact despite the desperate beliefs of wacko right wingers.

    We have a neighborhood here in Orange County, CA where you would fit right in. It's called FANTASYLAND!!!
    Last edited by scfire86; 09-14-2004 at 10:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Any way you look at it, say no to Kerry

    Originally posted by scfire86


    He wasn't charged with treason for one reason. He didn't commit it. That is a fact. If you don't understand the charge of treason you may want to reread the Constitution.

    And we are to believe a 28 y/o just waltzed right into a Senate committee and admitted to war crimes and just walked right out without someone saying "hey didn't he just commit perjury? Didn't he just admit to war crimes?" Kerry wasn't charged with perjury because he didn't commit perjury. That is also a fact despite the desperate beliefs of wacko right wingers.

    We have a neighborhood here in Orange County, CA where you would fit right in. It's called FANTASYLAND!!!
    He wasn't charged with treason because the Senate Subcommittee he was appearing in front of was led by an anti-war sympathizer. Also, the mood of the country at that time was far different than it is now.

    My belief is that, while he was not held accountable then, he will be now. People are fed up. That is why he is plummeting in the polls. And it will get worse when they track the forged ANG documents to the DNC.

    Why should I not believe that a "a 28 y/o just waltzed right into a Senate committee and admitted to war crimes and just walked right out without someone saying "hey didn't he just commit perjury? Didn't he just admit to war crimes?" That is exactly what happened and was chronicled on TV and memorialized in his biography.

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Any way you look at it, say no to Kerry

    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    He wasn't charged with treason because the Senate Subcommittee he was appearing in front of was led by an anti-war sympathizer. Also, the mood of the country at that time was far different than it is now.

    My belief is that, while he was not held accountable then, he will be now. People are fed up. That is why he is plummeting in the polls. And it will get worse when they track the forged ANG documents to the DNC.

    Why should I not believe that a "a 28 y/o just waltzed right into a Senate committee and admitted to war crimes and just walked right out without someone saying "hey didn't he just commit perjury? Didn't he just admit to war crimes?" That is exactly what happened and was chronicled on TV and memorialized in his biography.
    More myths from ether land.

    Fortunately there was an anti war movement. Who knows how many thousands of American's and Vietnamese lives were saved.

    And meanwhile, while Kerry was taking a stand to stop the war, where was Bush? Oh yeah, in a stupor.
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Any way you look at it, say no to Kerry

    Originally posted by scfire86


    More myths from ether land.

    Fortunately there was an anti war movement. Who knows how many thousands of American's and Vietnamese lives were saved.

    And meanwhile, while Kerry was taking a stand to stop the war, where was Bush? Oh yeah, in a stupor.
    I understand. If someone posts something that goes against Kerry, it is a myth. Despite the fact that it is the truth.

    Kerry took a stand to stop the war, all right. Including subversive activity such as conspiracy to murder US Senators.

    Hey sc...you're fighting a losing battle here all alone. Why don't you get some reinforcements?

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    His only reinforcements now sit on the boards posting messages to himself because he has everyone else on his ignore list. What the Heck ever happened to Duffman? That dude used to be pretty left leaning.
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    I am just curious as to why he can't have a conversation without personally insulting someone?
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    Default -

    When you are commander in chief, and you country is under attack, and you have no idea at all what's coming next, it is not prayer time- it's time to excuse yourself, make phone calls, and get down to business
    A lot of people, myself included, think that his is exactly the time to pray. The President was being a LEADER. He was alowing his team to gather information and letting them work, letting them do the size up. He was also showing strength and support to the nation by not panicing.

    We don't run into a fire without doing a size up and making a plan. We should allow the President to do the same thing.

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Any way you look at it, say no to Kerry

    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    I understand. If someone posts something that goes against Kerry, it is a myth. Despite the fact that it is the truth.

    Kerry took a stand to stop the war, all right. Including subversive activity such as conspiracy to murder US Senators.

    Hey sc...you're fighting a losing battle here all alone. Why don't you get some reinforcements?
    You made an unsubstantiated claim about Kerry committing treason and perjury. Neither of which are true. Technically those would be myths. Better legal minds than you decided that wasn't the case but somehow you consider yourself the final arbiter of what happened during that time frame.

    And I don't need reinforcements.
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    Default Re: -

    Originally posted by Eng34FF


    A lot of people, myself included, think that his is exactly the time to pray. The President was being a LEADER. He was alowing his team to gather information and letting them work, letting them do the size up. He was also showing strength and support to the nation by not panicing.

    We don't run into a fire without doing a size up and making a plan. We should allow the President to do the same thing.
    Personally I would rather have someone who politely excuses himself and starts gathering information immediately. Yes, firefighters do a size up. But the company officer is actively engaged in the process. He (or she) doesn't just sit there for seven minutes and wait for someone else to tell him what's happening.

    If 9/11 is to be considered the equivalent of Pearl Harbor I doubt FDR said, "you know what, even though thousands of Americans have been killed and the Pacific Fleet has been pulverized, I think I'll finish lunch before I start WW II."
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    And what, prey tell, was this information his people would have immediately at their finger tips? Or in the first seven minutes?

    It takes time to gather & analyze information, and to report it on up.

    Maybe it's giving him too much credit for understanding how government works...but spending a few more minutes with the kids meant zip to the decision making process at the President's level. He's not their to micro-manage -- he has aides whose job it is to find/make contact with the key advisors; he has security whose job it is to prepare to whisk him away.
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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    And what, prey tell, was this information his people would have immediately at their finger tips? Or in the first seven minutes?

    It takes time to gather & analyze information, and to report it on up.

    Couldn't tell you since I wasn't there. But if I were at work and I found out a plane had hit my house I wouldn't sit there and wait for relief before I left to find out what was happening. I guess I'm just weird that way.

    With an attitude like that I guess I can forget about any presidential aspirations.
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