1. #1
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    Default WWYD...Brooklyn Style

    Here it is. You're getting 3 Engines and 2 Trucks. Put 'em to work!
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    1st in truck search and rescue
    2ed truck--main to the roof vent the roof
    1st engine-secure the water and assuming the truck found the fire begin attack
    2ed engine assist in laddering the buidling if its not complete and then begin backing up the attack team
    3ed engine--if needed to help the other two engines, use them. If not protect the exposures.

    What kinda trucks to do I have?
    If they are pre-piped then have them help the third engine protect the exposure
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    Default My opinion...

    I've been firefighting for a couple years, but I'm new at IC. Is the fire self venting through the roof behind the facade? Heavy fire, bars on the first floor windows, doors and other windows boarded up... I might ask any bystanders if they think there's any possibility of occupancy, if not I don't think I'd consider sending a team into this place or putting people in the roof. I'd probably have the first engines set up water supply and move this operation pretty quickly into a devensive surround and drown attack with ladder pipes and deck guns. Like I said, I'm new at IC, so any comments are more than welcome.
    Last edited by 911brad; 09-18-2004 at 08:42 PM.
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    First of all since this is what seems to be a vacant building we want to make sure that we leave room in front of the building for a tower ladder. 1st Truck is forcing entry (cans, irons, officer) while the Roof man will be opening the roof (via exposure 2,4 or ariel). OV helping with VES. 2nd due truck will be going to the fire floor to assist in search since this is a top floor fire and there is no floor above the fire. Another priority of the 2nd due truck would be openining up as many of the boarded windows as possible. 1st engine stretching to fire floor. 2nd engine backing up first engine with a line. 3rd due engine will be stretching to the 3rd floor on the exposure 4 side checking for extension. Those would be my initial assignments hopefully the squad and rescue and an extra truck are on the way to help open up the roof and both exposures 2 and 4.
    Last edited by firefiftyfive; 09-18-2004 at 10:00 PM.

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    What about the rear of the building?...maybe send the second OV to the rear of the fire building and report to command
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    The roof man will be reporting conditions of the rear of the building to the IC.

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    The only thing that I would change is pairing up the OVs because the access to the rear is most likely limited.
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    Same as fiftyfive, but a few differences. 2nd due Engine will be helping 1st due get their line in position and water if needed. 3rd due Engine will stretch the 2nd line to back up the first line. An OV definatly needs to get to the rear, 1st due OV might be on roof dropping off the saw, or in the bucket of the Tower Ladder working on the HUD windows.No front fire escape means there is most likly one in the rear. OV going to rear should bring a maul and saw to force entry in rear ( remove HUD windows) If no Tower Ladders on the ticket, then one should be requested. The Exposures arnt a major concern right now because these are NFP buildings with a brick wall between the buildings, so they can be checked by an extra truck or Rescue or Squad etc... The Roof should be cut AFTER the Bulkhead,skylight and top floor windows in the shafts etc, are taken and the rear and shafts are checked for trapped occupants.

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    Engine 1-blitz the fire with a deck gun, obtain water supply (split crew) IC until Chief arrives. Pull back up line.
    Engine 2-exposure side 4, stretch line, search, rescue, contain, vent if needed.
    Engine 3- at door for entry into involved building, stretch line, contain or extinguish fire.
    Truck 1- force entry, search, rescue, clear windows, vent. FEO to put stick to 3rd floor windows not involved.
    Truck 2- to rear of building, force entry, ground ladder to 2nd floor (secondary egress), search, rescue, clear windows, vent. FEO to put stick above roof for defensive mode if needed.
    call RIT x2 for front and rear of building (2 points of entry)
    Special for another engine to assist truck 2, or check side 2 exposure.
    Get reports from exposure companies and interior companies for extension, conditions.
    Call 2nd early if in doubt.
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    Pretty much the same as firefiftyfive I guess....first due company order the 10-75 w/addl truck to make sure you get the rescue, squad, 1&1 and FAST Truck and we'd be using all hands k
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    Size up - fire on the top story and thru the roof of an abandoned 3 story (which may or may not contain squaters). Exposures 2 & 4 are attached and of very same construction (possibility of common cockloft). This is obviously more than just a room and contents - transit the 2nd - especially given the exposure potential, and call for another FAST truck as it will be going to work.

    Make sure engines leave room for tower ladders at the front. Truck 1 and 2 inside team to force entry and search, OV's to rear for report and VES. Roof guys to check for extension into roof spaces of exposures and if none found then further open roof of fire building as needed.

    Engines 1 & 2 to stretch first line and get it operating - building appears likely to only have 1 inside stairs so by the time the line is at the top of the stairs the truckies should have located it - beyond the obvious. Engine 3 to stretch 2nd line, Engine 2 to help once Engine 1 has 1st line flowing water.

    Initially dispatched FAST truck to work - split into 3 x 2man teams - 1 team into 2nd floor of fire building to check for fire and search, 1 team into each of the exposures to check for extension.
    Last edited by stillPSFB; 09-18-2004 at 11:46 PM.
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    Put it out with the can...send everyone else home

    Nice job 229.

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    Get all the master streams you can get going on it, then pull out the lawn chairs and take a break.

    I agree with CollegeBuff. I wouldn't send anyone into the building since it's vacant. I'd put the engines and a truck on the front with master streams operating, and the other truck on the back doing the same. What's the point of risking a firefighters live when no one is inside? Go in after the fire is out.

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    Originally posted by Engine76
    Get all the master streams you can get going on it, then pull out the lawn chairs and take a break.

    I agree with CollegeBuff. I wouldn't send anyone into the building since it's vacant. I'd put the engines and a truck on the front with master streams operating, and the other truck on the back doing the same. What's the point of risking a firefighters live when no one is inside? Go in after the fire is out.
    If nobody is in it, how'd the fire start?? These buildings are often occupied by squatters, neighborhood children playing etc.. If you go to the rear, often the wood has been removed off the fire escape window, and people do live in there. It is YOUR JOB to do as much of a search as you can, and confire the fire to that building so it doesnt get the chance to spread to exposures, where other people live. Just because it is boarded up, doesnt mean its definatly unsafe or unoccupied.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 09-19-2004 at 01:05 PM.

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    Whats up with all the surround and drown and not going into the building to put this 2-4 room & cockloft fire out? You can back out once you do a complete primary search or realize that there is way too much fire or its not 2-4 rooms. As it relates to the roof as well this is an older building and the roof is probably not of truss construction. Giving you more time, again this is something your roof man can relay to the IC. IE the fire has control of the cockloft and is throughout, that is also why the top floor ceilings will need to be opened right away.

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    Reading that extension isn't likely changed my priorities from my first thought (lines to the top of both occupied exposures and open up the ceiling coupled with roof venting).

    Then I thought of the textbook "tactics" I'd use, and more I thought of it started looking like a building we actually have in our town (other district) -- can't remember if that building is 2-1/2 story or 3 story, I'll try and get a pic tomorrow to show these buildings ain't always in Brooklyn, NY.

    The fire through the roof doesn't scare me -- roof guys will get feedback on it's stability, it's most likely rafters, and I'd rather see a lot of fire venting then just a lot of heavy smoke -- at least I know most of the fire is being drawn out there buying more time for the rest of the structure. A lot of fire can be put our really, really quickly if you can get the nozzle in the right place to hit the fire.

    Night time like this, we'll have the manpower to make a go for it.

    I'd make the call to pull a 2.5" line...unfortunately due to habits you'd probably see 2 1.75" lines going in. But the visible fire is within the capacity of 2 1.75" lines if that's what goes up.

    The order things will happen is first line goes in, "truck" guys on their tails. Open up the ceiling at the top of the stairs so the hose can knock the attic, while they're doing that go find the door to the fire apartment, force it, and by that point the 2nd line will be inside and can go at the seat of the fire. Bring up an attic ladder so 1st line can be sent up to the attic to finish hitting the fire. Truck guys do a quick search as the hose crews work.

    Day time...unfortunately, it'll probably be a deck gun job initially. We'd be hard pressed to have enough manpower initially to do all the simultaneous tasks of stretching lines & opening ceilings. It's the catch-22, if you held the trucks in quarters long enough to assemble full crews you've delayed an extra five minutes or more and you've lost a lot more of the building. Roll them short-handed with just a couple guys you can at least hit a hydrant and flow the deck gun to make an initial knock on it.
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    The fire on the front cornice might just be extension from the front windows to the cornice, only way to make sure of that is the roofman checking from the roof (cant just assume its through the roof, and roof is too dangerouse to go out on). As far as the lines to the exposures. That would be a low priority (at least where I work) These buildings are built as individual(seperate) buildings with exterior brick walls all the way up. The exposure needs to be checked, but my first two lines are going to fire floor.

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    Hey MattyJ what type of building would this be considered? I don't think that its a Brownstone or an OLT or NLT, but I"m not really sure. Also what would be the depth of this building? I would guess prolly 50 or 75.

    Also thanks for this little challenge E229lt, it's fun to do these things, it gets the wheels turning!

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    Artie,
    This looks like something right down the street from the house. DId you take this picture of this from your first due?

    In my local area we dont have these types of buildings. But I am willing to take a stab at it.
    First two lines go to the fire building, stretch a dry 2.5 to the floor below and then charge it. I would want more water available. Other than that I think MattyJ and Fiftyfive have it pretty much covered.

    MattyJ,
    You reference HUD windows in your post, this is a term I am unfamiliar with. Could you help me out on this one?

    BTW, this does get the wheels turning doesnt it? Good one Loo.

    Dave, I love it. LOL.
    Last edited by Lewiston2Capt; 09-20-2004 at 12:35 PM.
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    The Building looks like what we call an "Old Law Tenement", built prior to 1901 building code. Could be "New Law Tenement" built after 1901 building code. Anyway, it is a non-fireproof (Class 3) It has brick outside walls with wood floors,cielings,etc..
    HUD stands for Housing and Urban Development. When they board up a vacant building, they do it in the manner shown in the picture.

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    I was wondering if that was what it was in reference to. Thanks for the explanation.
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    I agree with fifty five. Forget the surrond and drown just go in and put the fire out. Surround and drowm takes to long and leaves more room for second guessing which in turn leaves room for a mistake.
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    We have a vacant, multi family,ordinary with fire through the roof.

    First engine feeds a tower to knock down the fire. With the fire through the roof collapse is likely if it hasn't happened already. Second engine into exposure on the 4 side. Second truck into exposure 4 and on the roof to check for extension.
    Some of the first truck needs to open up and get in (fires don't just start in vacant buildings)
    Third engine will get a line in after the fire is darkend.
    I would strike a box to start more help in also.

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    so wait a sec. Your going to take the time to set up a tower and supply it with water when you can just stretch a line???? Or if you really want to go with the surround and drown and make a quick knock down whats wrong with the Deck gun, I would think that would be much quicker.

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    Here are a few things I note about this senario:

    -I'm not sure whether the fire is from the cornice and potentially the cockloft or if it is above the roof venting through previously cut roof holes or if as noted before it is just extension from the windows below.

    -I can't discern any vacant markings(box with the "X" or "R.O.") Perhaps they were covered up by our local "Yutes"(in the voice of my Cousin Vinny) That doesn't mean it wasn't marked at one time.

    -I realize that many of you guys depts have you programed to hand out commands based on what the IC sees upon arrival however this is where predetermined postions and tools I feel is supperior. The roofman would make his way to the roof and report on where the fire is really comming from and what the condition is of the roof and building from his vantage point. From what I can see I'm not convinced that the roof is in any danger of collapse.

    Also if the roof is already opened this would assist the Engine Company in moving in quickly on the fire as it is more than adequately vented.

    -This fire is far from out of control and should after a through examination be attacked from inside if at all possible. I would wait to hear what the roof man says before writting off this building. Also in all likelyhood it was started by someone so we probably should think about looking for anyone who might still be inside.

    -Also interestingly enough in my part of the city we would expect a shaft on atlest one side of the building. In Brooklyn do these buildings not have them typically? I'm not sure since I've never worked there. I would imagine the building would only be about 50 ft deep at most then.

    This is a very topical WWYD since it is getting colder and Vacant fires happen more nowadays during the winter as the homeless and junkies try to keep warm. Also it is good to remember that many times that part or a majorty of a building will be vacant and borded up and there will still be families living in one or two apartments within a large building. We have one Monster 7 story NLT in my 1st Due that covers about 75x120 on a corner lot and has only 2 Apts occupied. The rest of the windows are borded up.

    Great Topic Lou!

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    Last edited by FFFRED; 09-20-2004 at 07:44 PM.

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