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  1. #21
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    Then I guess we can blame the GOP led Congress for slashing defense spending and making us vulnerable to terrorists and for the recession inherited by Bush in Jan '01.

    You got me.
    The Congressional GOP gave them the money, Les Aspin just wasted it. If the Pentagon had been given the order to go after Osama from the White House, then we would possibly been safe from terrorism. Congress controls the spending, Clinton wasted what was spent.

    As for the recession, you have to blaim that one on out fellow speculative citizens that wasted money on the .com stocks, the government and neither party had any real direct roll there. But thank goodness for W's tax break, keeping it from getting worse then it could have been!


  2. #22
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    The Congressional GOP gave them the money, Les Aspin just wasted it. If the Pentagon had been given the order to go after Osama from the White House, then we would possibly been safe from terrorism. Congress controls the spending, Clinton wasted what was spent.
    You clearly have no idea how defense appropriations operate. By the time they get signed, every dollar is directed toward specific activity by law.

    Money for a program (i.e. a ship or airplane) can not be moved to another without permission from Congress oversight.

    You can give the Clinton bashing a rest. It's a pretty specious argument, if it's an argument at all.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  3. #23
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    You clearly have no idea how defense appropriations operate. By the time they get signed, every dollar is directed toward specific activity by law.

    Money for a program (i.e. a ship or airplane) can not be moved to another without permission from Congress oversight.

    You can give the Clinton bashing a rest. It's a pretty specious argument, if it's an argument at all.
    You are telling me that I don't know how approps work, now that is funny. They are not nearly as specific as you would like, or as most would like. They give the money to a program, then it is well managed or it is not. Sending the money for operations is a pretty general category that can be used well or abused.

    As for Clinton bashing, you are the one who tried to unjustifiably praise him well trying to take a hit at his immediate predecessors because they were Republican.

  4. #24
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    You are telling me that I don't know how approps work, now that is funny.
    Not funny. Hysterical. Dad worked in the defense industry for almost 30 years. Most of it interacting with the USAF and the Defense Contract Audit Agency.

    I'll take his word (and he is a staunch conservative) over yours any day.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #25
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    ....They are not nearly as specific as you would like, or as most would like. They give the money to a program, then it is well managed or it is not....

    SCFIRE as stated in the above..it is not as "cut and dry" as you may think. DennisTheMenace has a good grasp on what "happens"...here is a link for the most recent budget approved. Read through it and you get the idea...

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...y05budget1.htm


    Oh and BTW Global Security is not some Right or Left wing Lunni Site. They are very to the point and report on what is out there without bias. Our own intell guys used to use this site as a good source tool.
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  6. #26
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    Not funny. Hysterical. Dad worked in the defense industry for almost 30 years. Most of it interacting with the USAF and the Defense Contract Audit Agency.

    I'll take his word (and he is a staunch conservative) over yours any day.
    Yes, his dollars that he is given is fixed, but there is still a lot of room to how that money is used or wasted within the project. It is interesting how much money his company spends on lobbying for that money, a vicious cycle, sort of like the unions.

    Money is placed for general and specific areas, within the areas much latitude is still given. But regardless, Les Aspin's and Clinton's screw ups an inaction with DoD had little to do with money and much to do with policy and mangement.

    How does such a Lefty like you survive in Orange County anyhow?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    First of all. It's 3% @ 50. Not 55.

    Gotcha.

    BTW, that's not as lucrative as Connecticut

    State Police are, IIRC, 3% per year, based on average of last three years of service, after 20 years of service -- I have one friend whose eligible for retirement and can start collecting when he's 40. Most other police agencies are similiar, otherwise they lose people to those with better pensions. I'm not sure what the municipal firefighters do.

    It is a very lucrative pension plan compared to private industry, or many other states. It doesn't mean it's unjustifiable (and there's some sound logic behind "public safety" pensions), but it being questioned is certainly reasonable.

    Googling the issue, it's clear it came about from the agencies trying to have their cake and eat it too -- CalPERS enjoyed large surpluses in the 1990s stock market, and agencies tried to both increase their pension benefits and cut their contributions based on the "irrational exuberance" rates of return. Now with more normal returns but bigger pension obligations, they find themselves paying bigger premiums than expected.
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  8. #28
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    How does such a Lefty like you survive in Orange County anyhow?
    It's easy. I just point out the bunglings of Bush and the local GOP electeds and they shut right up.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  9. #29
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Money is placed for general and specific areas, within the areas much latitude is still given. But regardless, Les Aspin's and Clinton's screw ups an inaction with DoD had little to do with money and much to do with policy and mangement.
    Explain this to me. With all those screw ups as you put them. How was it the US military was able to kick the hell out of two opponents in a very short period of time?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  10. #30
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    Explain this to me. With all those screw ups as you put them. How was it the US military was able to kick the hell out of two opponents in a very short period of time?
    I have been tring to be good and not get back into these discussions...then I see crap like this.....Hey Scfire...how much experiance do you have in the combat arms during the Clinton years? I had from 95-00, and from 00-03 during Bush.....During the Bubba years...we had little or no money to use on ammunition. We fired live ammo once a year. And during CAX...we would always run out or units would have to show up with nothing. We had to "play" war...and say "bang"...and I am not exagerating....flight hours would usually run out in June...and we would have to strech it to October. I could go on and on...but I will answer this question...The reason we kicked the hell out of 2 opponents in a very short period of time is becasue the US Military man strives on person initiative and motivation. The men know how to get the job done no matter what the consiquence or availibility of gear. Our history proves this....Iwo, Tarawa, Normandy, Bastonge, Chosin, Hue, and Gulf I. Have you not noticed all the changes since Bush....the USMC had new, better utilites, everyone has the new interceptor body armor..improved Kevlar Turtles, improve weapons such as the Javilen, M4, and ,M16A3 and A4. It all comes down to the Marine or Soldier on the ground with a rifle. Not a tank, plane or ship....that's all support. Its the Mean Mutha with a rifle that make a difference. He is driven by tradition, honor, courage, and commitment. These Core Values manifest into something else later on after that mean mutha expeciances combat....FireLT understands me as does Sharkie.

    If you are thinking that Clinton "modernized" the military you are smoking crack. For example Under the 10 division redesign from the Secretary of the Army, the 2nd Armored Division was reflagged as the 4th Infantry Division in December 1995...so much for bubba's modernization...the unit already existed. But to the lay person the 3ID and 4ID were Clintons projects. But to the Military, we knew the real deal. Most of the major equipment was already approved during Reagan and Bush 41. The JCS had to beg to get new items approved becasue Clinton felt we had no Enemy since the Warsaw Pact had disolved. Granted bush 41 also felt the same and that's when the down sizing started...Clinton took it to the extereme....he dissovled 10 Active Duty Army divisions and butcherd 1 Marine Division. The later of which was to counter any Korean or Chinese moves in the PTO. Its a widly know FACT that Clinton butchered the Military and put hand cuffs on us...history shows this. So I don;t even know why we have to debate it.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 10-01-2004 at 11:28 PM.
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  11. #31
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    VinnieB.

    Thank you for the history lesson.

    The Pentagon has over $2T it can not give a proper accounting. How much should we be spending?

    All that butchering was still done under the watchful eye of a GOP Congress.

    And with all the shortages you mention, the first item Bush asked for after 9/11 was funding for National Missile Defense. How would some pie in the sky super gizmachi weapons system whose ability to function is questionable solve all the issues you mention? Or twenty maniacs with box cutters for that matter.

    I've talked to several troops returning from Iraq. They have nothing but bitterness towards the service contracts being provided by Halliburton. Food is lousy, service is terrible and the company has been charged and found over charging for any number of items it is responsible to provide. For all the sacrifice we are asked to believe our military personnel are making apparently it doesn't translate to the profiteering being done by corporations benefitting from its association with the POTUS. That's only a small example of course. But I believe it is endemic of a larger problem.

    Your angst is misplaced.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-02-2004 at 12:27 AM.
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  12. #32
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scfire86
    VinnieB.

    Thank you for the history lesson....Your angst is misplaced.

    First off...did you miss were I mentioned that the cuts started under Bush?...I metioned this in previous post too...and I have included in the past about the congress...why I thinks the senete was at teh time...51 Republican and 49 Democrat....and congress are like lesbians...we all know the punch line to that...

    The missle defense thing...well to me the jury is still out about that...I am doing my homework thought...but i don't see how that became an issue here....but if you would like to discuss N.Korea and China...feel free to ask away.

    The troops returning and complaining...WOW...CAll the PRESS big NEWS...since when didn't troops complain about supply and logistics. I spent 6 months in Afganistan, 3 Months in Kosovo, 1 Month in Bosnia, and 3 months in Turkey near the Iraqi Border in 97....the food sucked...the food sucks in garrison too...I couldn't even get replacement uniforms in garrison..on the largest Marine base in the world....Please don't lecture me about military logistics....
    Here's another history lesson...on June 6, 1944...we landed in Normady..shortly there after the beach was secured...we began to stock pile supplies.....many supplies remained on the beach in the spot they were dumped unitl after the war..they were never touched. Hell our supply system was not that great. Our biggest problem was keeping units supplied with addiquate ammuntion stores...we had a very hard time getting 105mm and 75mm rounds to Arty and Amror unit....Read the book entiled.."A Soldiers Load and the Mobility of a Nation" before you ask me a question like that again. Haliburton..I asked you this before...who is as large as them? Who can do what they do?...Oh I know!...It was a vast right wing conspiracey created by Cheney 10 years ago....he could't wait to start another war and get tons of money....

    For all the sacrifice we are asked to believe our military personnel are making apparently it doesn't translate to the profiteering being done by corporations benefitting from its association with the POTUS. That's only a small example of course. But I believe it is endemic of a larger problem.

    You don't read history much do you?...Again read the book I mentioned...Corporations have alwasy benefited from the sacrifice of the military..its a COLD HARD FACT........and do you really believe Bush started this war to make money for himself and his friends?...GET OFF IT!....See the above comment abouve Cheney.

    BTW Were do you get your rock?...How do I get some?...I wan't to smoke what your smoking....maybe then I can see what you really think.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 10-02-2004 at 01:29 AM.
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  13. #33
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    And to quote the immortal Olson Johnson, "who can argue with that?"
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  14. #34
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Once again, you are asked questions, but choose not to answer them.

    People here answer almost every question you ask of them, and when you have question posed back at you, you do at least one of two things - 1) insult them, and / or 2) not answer the questions.

    It grows quite tiresome to have this situation continue to occur.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  15. #35
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DaSharkie
    Once again, you are asked questions, but choose not to answer them.

    People here answer almost every question you ask of them, and when you have question posed back at you, you do at least one of two things - 1) insult them, and / or 2) not answer the questions.

    It grows quite tiresome to have this situation continue to occur.

    Ditto..
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  16. #36
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Yet you both keep playing. And you two are the only ones getting tired.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  17. #37
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    I didn't say I was getting tired of "the game" I said I was getting tired of your manner of not answering questions. You call other hypocrites but don't seem to mind doing the same.

    It really is quite a childish behavior. I just want some questions answered. A conversation is a two way street and you should really try completing the conversation. It could gain you some respect by doing so.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

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    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  18. #38
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DaSharkie
    I didn't say I was getting tired of "the game" I said I was getting tired of your manner of not answering questions. You call other hypocrites but don't seem to mind doing the same.

    It really is quite a childish behavior. I just want some questions answered. A conversation is a two way street and you should really try completing the conversation. It could gain you some respect by doing so.
    Oh boo hoo hoo. The only ones whining like a little child is you.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  19. #39
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    Explain this to me. With all those screw ups as you put them. How was it the US military was able to kick the hell out of two opponents in a very short period of time?
    Who are these two opponents that Clinton and Aspin kicked the heck out of? They took a strong showing in Somolia and turned it into a loss and 18 dead Rangers. Clinton then allowed one barricks, two embassies and a ship to be blown up and barely retaliated for any of it.

    Since 9/11 we kicked *** over two enemies because we had leadership at the top.

  20. #40
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Oh boo hoo hoo. The only ones whining like a little child is you.
    So I am acting like a child. Who does the name calling? Who does not answer those questions when they are posed (lik a child does)?

    I am not asking for much out of you, just a pleasant, non hate filled conversation about politics (yes everyone, it can be done), and the questions posed to you to be answered, as those posed by you are answered. Not a whole lot to ask is it?
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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